How do you get people in church?

Marin’s action plan on disengaged Catholics
Marin County, California (Ed Callaert Photography)

Marin County, California (Ed Callaert Photography)

The following comes from an April 29th Catholic San Francisco article by Christina Gray:

After a full year of discussion, Marin County parishes are getting closer to announcing a collective action plan this summer for revitalizing the Mass and reversing the dwindling numbers in their pews.

On April 25, parish leaders from 11 of Marin’s 13 churches met at St. Sebastian Church in Greenbrae for the sixth time since last March to find solutions to a deanerywide decline in eucharistic celebration.

“One of the things that has happened for this generation is that the baton got dropped,” said St. Hilary pastor Father William Brown. “Many people who sit in Mass don’t actually know what we are doing or why, or they don’t remember.”

St. Vincent's (Fr. Z's blog)

St. Vincent’s (Fr. Z’s blog)

Father Brian Costello, pastor of Our Lady of Loretto Parish in Novato, singled out one Marin County church for its welcoming community, full pews, music and ongoing catechesis as having a “template” that works.

“Without incurring the wrath of my brother priests, I think we have a very good model here in Marin County, and that’s St. Vincent’s,” he said. “I know it’s not a parish, but people are driving miles and miles to go to Sunday Mass here.”

Few in the room disagreed.

St. Vincent’s Church in San Rafael is not a self-standing parish but is affiliated with nearby St. Isabella. Still, it “attracts people from all of our parishes,” said St. Anselm parish coordinator Anne Roggenbuck. She said she and her family often attend the 9:45 a.m. Sunday Mass there and said, “I hate to admit it, but I see lots of St. Anselm’s people there,” including school nuns and parish lectors.

St. Vincent's exterior (Fr. Z.'s blog)

St. Vincent’s exterior (Fr. Z.’s blog)

Under the direction of Mgsr. Robert Sheeran, director of ministry at Marin Catholic High School, the congregation has grown dramatically. She said he makes the Mass relevant and riveting to people of all ages and by integrating brief explanations of readings or rituals.

Paul Gallagher of St. Anthony of Padua Parish in Novato said that while other parishes are struggling with what he called “casual Catholics,” or irregular Massgoers, he doesn’t believe that is who St. Vincent is attracting and the deaneries should take a closer look at what they are offering.”



  1. In France, the majority of Mass attending Catholics attend the Extraordinary Form. Eventually, the Novus Ordo will die out. It simply is not producing the necessary vocations, and, as the article points out, Catholics find it “irrelevant.”

    • Catholics have not had accurately and complete catechesis for the past 45 years.

      It is not the Mass.

      • Ann Malley says:

        ….and the TLM which teaches visually the sacrificial nature of the Mas and girds by way of overt symbols and display Christ’s Real Presence in the Blessed Sacrament is a pivotal aspect of catechesis, PETE. So while you insist, “…it’s not the mass,” one wonders why you would be so adverse to encouraging that which teaches without words a large part of what is missing.

        Or would you attempt to teach your children what colors and shapes are without providing them with – well – colors and shapes?

        • Exactly, Ann. The Novus Ordo itself is deficient catechesis. Do people honestly think that bad catechesis just coincidently exists in an otherwise sound Catholic culture? Everything begins and ends with the Mass. The tragedy is that people’s Catholic intellects have been so trashed that they’re not just clueless, they’re also delusional to the point that they argue about it.

          • Ann Malley says:

            …much, I believe, of this delusion is born out of the desire to be obedient. But when practice is lifted off the foundation of function/logic/purpose, there is no more obedience, just blind following and confusion as to why the house is falling apart.

            A cleric once chastened another priest on CCD for ascribing the crisis within the Church to the diabolic. This individual then went on to “explain” that the problems just go back to 40-50 years of bad catechesis within the Church. But hey, what is more diabolical and/or just plain evil (and effective for the purpose of destruction), than a Mother who is kept bound and gagged, unable to teach her own children?

          • Anonymous says:

            On this website those who attend the TLM (especially illicit ones) have written many grave errors and have frequently had to be corrected on tenets of the Catholic Faith…
            So, what is it you “know” from attending the TLM that all of those who attend the re-presentation of the Lord’s Sacrifice on Calvary in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite don’t know?

          • And a number on this website who attend the NO engage in sodomy. It’s amateur hour to argue that the errors of particular individuals one way or other prove a point. But what the attendees, in general, of the TLM “know” is a far greater depth of understanding of the gravamen of the crucifixion and its centrality to the Catholic faith. The NO, on the other hand, (and this is the incessant mantra of its supporters) is presented as a celebration of a “communal meal.” Drawing from the errors of Luther, in the NO, the doctrine of sin is de-emphasized when the priest faces away from the Christ on the cross. This is at the most basic and obvious level. The effects of the TLM are spiritual and go infinitely beyond this. One must turn towards Christ and the Mass of the ages. Ultimately, each must ask whether he/she will turn away from the childish party crowd which dominates the mainstream parishes and attempt to ascend the rocks of Calvary to kneel at His feet. Anybody who has done that never questions the TLM.

          • Pete Green says:

            Good comments, Ralph. In the NO, the issue isn’t about the priest facing the people, rather it’s that the priest turns his back on the large crucifix. So what happens in the NO is that the people fix their eyes on the priest; in the TLM, the people look past the back of the priest and fix their eyes on the crucifix. Over decades, people attending the TLM spend infinitely more time gazing upon the crucified Christ than do the NO attendees who are not exposed to the meditative benefits of the TLM. In the NO the priest is a distraction. People miss the point when they say Christ is present in both forms. The NO just isn’t the better theological presentation between the two. But, as has been pointed out here, the NO will die out, in time.

          • Anonymous says:

            Ralph, thank you for answering. I disagree that the Mass is presented as a communal meal. I have never seen that.
            I have never seen a party either.
            The Mass is the greatest prayer of the Church. It is the Sacrifice of Calvary re-presented.
            I do not agree that the doctrine of sin is de-emphasized. I honestly think the opposite is true. I have never been to any Catholic Mass or function that denied sin. I have seen individuals who did not believe the Church on certain things, especially sins of the tongue.
            I think you may be reading or projecting something into things.

          • Anonymous says:

            Pete Green, The OF does not and never did insist that the priest face away from the people. Though it is usually done that way, some situations do not permit it.
            Every Mass has a crucifix for people to gaze upon. Although since the priest is in persona Christi and Jesus in present in the priest, I can’t see why you would have a problem if people look at the priest instead of the crucifix.
            Gazing upon a crucifix is a meritorious act, especially if one looks at Him with love, pity, remorse and sorrow for one’s sins.
            I have never seen the TLM questioned; it is the opposite-there are those who question or even disparage the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. This is heterodoxy (hopefully out of ignorance and not malice).

          • Thanks Anonymous – But what I personally think about things should mean nothing to you, especially if you’re hell-bent to disagree. I grew up in the NO (for the most part, things changed when I was about 10), I spent decades going to the NO. I know all about it – just like you do. I have seen all the things you have, and maybe more. The difference between the two of us is that I see the merits of the TLM over the NO and they’re not even close. The NO operates to dilute the faith. Why argue with me? There’s a million people to argue with – argue with Christopher Ferrara at the Remnant for starters. The problem with the NO crowd is that they’re arguing against something (the TLM) that they don’t know. The overwhelming majority of us TLM adherents, on the other hand, know both forms. You should listen to us, even though we’re not perfect. If you’re offended, don’t take what we say as disparagement of the NO – but sorry, it’s a deficient representation of the faith as compared to the TLM. Just saying, for those who have ears to hear.

          • Pete Green says:

            The thing about attending the TLM for a period of time (and very tough to find a supporter of the NO who has done that) is that the TLM, by its nature, accentuates what is missing and distorted in the NO. People conditioned by the NO are blocked from seeing its deficiencies. Only a person who attends the TLM is going to pick those up. What many former NO priests have said, and is the reason they left the NO, is that the NO deformed their interior lives. It is tragic that that Catholics have been robbed of their TLM heritage. The NO was imposed upon the Body Catholic – people did not ask for it – it was done to them- and then the same forces which put the NO in play lied for decades saying the TLM had been abrogated. And 2 Popes had to step in to publicly announce the truth – that the TLM, the Mass of the Ages, was never abrogated and every Catholic had a right to it. So it begs the question what were the architects of the NO doing – why did they do it – and what did they do to YOU?? At what point do people begin to question – do people really believe that everything that happens in the Church is automatically proof of action by the Holy Spirit? Really? Is there no connection between the modern scandals and the NO? They just coincidently happened at the same time in history? Are people really so stupid? People just cannot fathom some common current connecting them both? Or they don’t want to? Wake up, folks.

          • Anonymous says:

            Ralph, thank you for admitting that it is your opinion.
            And yes, I have noticed that priests and laity who start attending the TLM begin to develop a distaste for the Ordinary Form. In the cases where they begin to believe false things about the OF, I believe it is the devil working on them. There have been priest who have been deceived into leaving the Church to join schismatic sects or who have become disobedient and derisive of their bishops. It would be better to follow the lead of St. John Paul II, Pope Emeritus Benedict and Cardinals Burke and Rigali who have an excellent understanding of the Mass in both form. Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church to increase your understanding of this most profound prayer of the Holy Catholic Church. Do not rely on your own thoughts but think with the mind of Christ.
            CCC 407 The Eucharist is the heart and the summit of the Church’s life, for in it Christ associates his Church and all her members with his sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving offered once for all on the cross to his Father; by this sacrifice he pours out the graces of salvation on his Body which is the Church.
            1408 The Eucharistic celebration always includes: the proclamation of the Word of God; thanksgiving to God the Father for all his benefits, above all the gift of his Son; the consecration of bread and wine; and participation in the liturgical banquet by receiving the Lord’s body and blood. These elements constitute one single act of worship.
            1409 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, that is, of the work of salvation accomplished by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, a work made present by the liturgical action.
            1410 It is Christ himself, the eternal high priest of the New Covenant who, acting through the ministry of the priests, offers the Eucharistic sacrifice.

          • Anonymous, sorry that some TLM adherents may “begin” to think some “false things” about the NO, but again, that’s not the point. The point is – which form is a better representation of the faith? It’s that simple. Show me somebody who answers that the NO is, and I’ll show you somebody whose faith was re-shaped by the NO into something other than what the Church had taught for the prior 1,960 years. You’re caught in a 60s time warp, my friend. The NO will die out, as it largely has in France, for example. The NO doesn’t hold Catholics. They wander off. In the U.S., 25% attend weekly Mass. Pre-V2 it was 75%. All that will be left is a much smaller Church, like in France, and it will be TLM Mass-goers.

          • Dottie says:

            Ralph what part of the OF Mass does not have good catechesis?

            Please direct me to the page number of the 2011 Roman Missal 3rd Edition, or the specific identifying prayer ?

          • Dottie says:

            Pete Green, if there is no crucifix on the Altar facing the Priest at your OF Mass, the Altar is not set up correctly according to GIRM.
            You should read GIRM and then contact your Diocese Bishop.

        • Ann Malley, you have NEVER provided anything from the OF (Ordinary Form of the Mass) – that violates any Church teaching.

          GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) is on the Vatican and USCCB web sites.
          Use it as documentation – and tell us what violates any Church teaching.

          You are nothing but an empty screaming shrew, who never backs up her facts,
          and promotes the SSPX – who at this time holds ZERO valid ministry within the Catholic Church.

          All you do is rant and rave like a 2 hear old that My Mass is better than your Mass. You never give any facts, using GIRM.
          Stop your mouth for a few minutes and prove something using Official Church documentation.

          • Ann Malley says:

            MAC, the GIRM is there to instruct on how to say Mass, not to do an analysis of whether or not a particular rite is shown to be banal and/or fabricated and/or lacking. You may want to take up your indignation with Pope Emeritus Benedict.

            As to the rest, your rant is little better than that of a two year old given unsupervised access to a keyboard. The “Mommy Says” attitude is rather telling as well. Our Lord told us to judge by the fruits, but I doubt you’d abrade Him for assessing them in lieu of the rule book.

            And again, casually dismissing the crisis in the Church to a lack of catechesis is in itself demonstrative of something not being right, GIRM and all, friend. Wake up. I know the pillow is soft and the blanket is warm, but it’s time to be the Church Militant you’re called to be, not a sleepy prop in a passion play.

            God bless

          • Ann Malley, you have ZERO authority to state whether a Mass is
            ” banal and/or fabricated and/or lacking” without using GIRM.

            If you don’t use official documentation from the Church, why should anyone pay attention to you and your SSPX ilk ?

            The SSPX has no ministry within the Catholic Church per Pope Benedict.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Of the New Mass, Cardinal Ratzinger said, “in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over the centuries and replaced it — as in a manufacturing process — with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”

            Go forth and educate yourself, Cindy. One does not go to the dictionary to determine whether or not a particular sentence is effective in conveying it’s intended meaning. Time to go back to the drawing board and look at what went wrong….for real this time.

            Simple powers of observation are all it takes, Cindy. And whereas those of your “ilk” may feel the need to have people listen to them and/or follow them, I desire nothing of the kind. Whatever I’ve said about the mass is a observation. Take it or leave it. The “fruits” speak for themselves. Or do you consider it necessary to have a degree before observing that it is daytime when you see the sunlight shining through the window?

            This childish bullying “ilk” nonsense speaks of nothing but fear, not Faith. It is precisely the “ideology” mindset that Francis warns against.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Ralph your comments are repulsive and full of misrepresentation. The church has always had heretics and schismatics outside and inside. Your comments are irrelevent and do not represent Jesus’s promises to us and the whole truth. Mankind continues to sin. Even in its infant years where the EF was most celebrated, we had saints complain about how sins of homosexuality have crept in the priesthood. They warned the faithful about it. Your comments are only based on false notions and not the truth.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            Cindy, then-Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in the German periodical “Revue Theologisches” (1990) about the New Mass and called it “a fabrication, a banal product of the moment.”

            Anytime you want to apologize to Ann Malley, I am sure will be fine with her.

          • Ann Malley says:

            God love you, Abeca, but your doe-eyed use of “repulsive” is repulsive. Please cease and desist portraying Catholics as having to be unschooled toddlers who cannot be wise as serpents – precisely what we are called to be. It is a real turnoff.

          • Anonymous says:

            Cindy, here is the Ratzinger quote. As you can see, he is talking about liturgical reformers who stray from the approved liturgical rites (NOT what Steve Phoenix calls the New Mass):
            The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication. They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment. (Ratzinger in Revue Theologisches, Vol. 20, Feb. 1990, pgs. 103-104)

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Ann Malley glad i sparked a reaction from you. I dont care what you think but its interesting enough how much you and your like mind care what i say. your wanna be insults are compliments. The truth hurts you all.

          • Anonymous says:

            Campion, there is only one GIRM that can be used at a time.
            Currently it is the GIRM approved by the Vatican in Nov. 2011.
            It is the “3rd Edition” of the Roman Missal.
            It is on both the USCCB and Vatican web sites.

            Ann Malley, bad mouths the OF Mass frequently.
            And most of us have seen her posts – backing the SSPX whom currently have no legitimate ministry within the Catholic Church.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Ann Malley, you quote a sentence fragment from a non-ecclesiastical preface of a book written by a single cardinal, a book that is no longer in print. You have been asked to provide evidence of the supposed deficiency of the liturgy, and we can’t even know for sure what the entire sentence says, let alone its context. For all we know, he could be talking about the liturgy of SSPX. Please provide approved ecclesiastical sources to support your notion that the OF is “lacking”. And lacking in what, exactly? Lacking in Latin? Lacking in grace? Lacking in validity?

          • Ann Malley says:

            …yes indeed, YFC. A single cardinal. Read what he wrote, YFC, and try doing some homework on your own. Your visceral loathing for the TLM is telling, just like your referring to Pope Emeritus Benedict as just “a single cardinal.”

            Transparent, but predictable.

          • Anonymous says:

            It is interesting that both Ann Malley and Steve Phoenix deceive with the same partial quotation. Hmmmmm.

          • Ann Malley says:

            It is interesting that those who purport to care about the salvation of souls are scared to death to discuss the realities of the Novus Ordo Missae. Why is that? Are they perhaps “deceiving” with the same pretense of caring for the salvation of souls? One wonders!

            I thought, Pope Saint John Paul said, “Be not afraid?”

            And yet all Anonymous, Abeca, and the round of clanging cymbals that trail on down the line is attempt to shut down any analysis or communication of information. And all with the most babyish and/or churlish renditions of good cop, bad cop.


          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Ann Malley, you paraphrased a supposed quotation. It is not up to me to provide a source for YOUR quote. You try to pawn that responsibility off on me, because you either don’t have the entire quote, or you very well know that the full quote in context doesn’t support what you say it says.

            When he wrote that sentence fragment that you provide, he was indeed a single Cardinal. That is the fact, is it not? He was not yet Pope, let alone Pope Emeritus. But you go on attacking people instead of substantiating your own position. Transparent, but predictable, indeed.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Anonymous, the liturgical “reformers” bypassed the permission to update and shot straight on to constructing something entirely new in the Novus Ordo Missae. That’s what you don’t seem to want to acknowledge, despite the truth of it.

          • Ann Malley says:

            YFC, Steve Phoenix has delightfully supplied the source: on his comment of May 4, 2015 at 9:03 am

            No one is asking you to supply anything, just an intellect and will. 🙂

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, everyone acknowledges that liturgical abuses occurred. That is the subject of the quote that you and Steve Phoenix tried to pawn off as a criticism of the Mass.
            So rather than acknowledge that you got caught with your pants down, again, you typically become aggressive.
            There is nothing wrong with up not buying your quackery.
            We are not afraid to discuss the Mass with you but you need to educate yourself on it first. It is like discussing colors with a blind person.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            In the May 4th “Anonymous” post, there is an attempt to portray Ratzinger’s quote on the banality and fabricated aspects of some elements of the New Mass as him only speaking of “liturgical reformers who stray from the approved rites”: but that clever editorial insertion is not either at all what Ratzinger was citing. He was accusing the entire Consilium which created the New Mass, of a fabrication and a break with the tradition.

            For context, see his quote in the forward to Monsgr. Klaus Gamber’s book, “The Reform of the Roman Liturgy”: “What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of the Liturgy as development came fabricated liturgy.” He adds that “We replaced it …with a banal, fabricated, on-the-spot product.” (“The Reform of the Roman Liturgy”).

            It is a common effort to portray then-Card. Ratzinger as NOT talking about the inherent defects in the New Mass, just the standard deflection of “those who stray.” In fact by endorsing Gamber, he is indicting the whole post-V2 Consilium committee who discarded the TLM, which was the Mass of the Council from start to its finish in 1965, and which created it’s man-made liturgy in 1968.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Phoenix also made a paraphrase and did not give a citation. He said it was in a magazine in a year. Give us a link to the article. Quote it in ites entirety. No paraphrases, no dodges, and please, a full citation so that we can look it up and verify it for ourselves.

          • Anonymous says:

            “At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet ‘in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.'”
            Ann Malley finds this banal?
            Banal-so lacking in originality as to be obvious and boring.
            synonyms: trite, hackneyed, clichéd, platitudinous, vapid, commonplace, ordinary, common, stock, conventional, stereotyped, overused, overdone, overworked, stale, worn out, timeworn, tired, threadbare, hoary, hack, unimaginative, humdrum, ho-hum, unoriginal, uninteresting, dull, uninvolving, trivial;
            Beyond OFFENSIVE to the Blessed Trinity and to the Blessed Mother and all the Angels and all the Saints and all the Faithful

          • Ann Malley says:

            The colors you wish to discuss are those on your blindfold, Anonymous, as you refuse to look at the rotted fruits all around you and those which have fallen off the tree. The colors may be the result of too much pressure on the eyes as you tighten the blindfold to ensure it doesn’t slip off – even if taking it off would be to the benefit of Holy Mother Church. But the stench of that which is rotten still lingers testifying to that which you would deny your eyes much like the cries of those souls stepping into the mess that you seem to disregard. (Hence the article – How to get people into Church?!)

            As for talking about ‘pants down’ with a female, methinks you may have overstepped yourself again as you seek to distract from the reality of what everyone can see and smell. To include your rank scrabbling to pretend there is no mess. No difference. No break.

            The banal fabrication is the NO whether you choose to believe it or no. Otherwise, in light of the ongoing and myriad abuses, the wording would have said banal fabrications. It did not.

            I would suggest you learn to read for deeper comprehension, but with that blindfold distracting you with tension headaches and the mystical colors they can produce, I’m thinking you should busy yourself with getting over your own issues first. Although it could be that you understand completely – that the onus is now attempting to convince thinking, faithful Catholics that there is no change. Good luck with that as the pants on that project are completely off, friend.

          • Anonymous, always provide an “official” Church link when quoting a Pope – to insure that you or anyone else, or a web site author,
            is not making an error and/or taking any statement out of context.

            IMPORTANT – If Pope Benedict (formerly Cardinal Ratzinger) wanted to change either the Ordinary Form of the Mass,
            or the Extraordinary Form of the Mass – he could have done so.

            ALL Popes have the authority to change the Liturgy.

          • Ann Malley says:

            IMPORTANT, Cindy:

            Think. Pope Benedict “could” have changed the Novus Ordo if he’d wanted to do so. But just look at what rancorous, venom is being spewed at Fr. Illio and Co. for changing just one parish in San Francisco. How much “public” support outside of the laity and +Cordelione is that little parish receiving in the Catholic community. And I’m not talking about the laity?

            How do you think that would play out if the Pope did as much?

            What Pope Benedict *did* do was issue Summorum Pontificum which stated clearly that the TLM was never abrogated. Even though that is exactly what the majority of the Catholic world was led to believe was the case because of the suppression of it. BXVI also stated that there should be a liberal availability of the TLM to the faithful groups who asked for it. He also indicated that priests needed no special permissions.

            But not all Bishops comply, Cindy. The FSSP, albeit in “full communion”, is too often harassed and marginalized and, often, only allowed into a diocese to counter “traditional” groups who are considered in an irregular situation. IOW: The TLM is grudgingly allowed.

            So yes, indeed, Pope Benedict could have modified or eliminated the Novus Ordo (he did spearhead a more “accurate” translation of the wording in it and even THAT was sneered at.).

        • DAVID V. says:

          Ann Malley, quoting from the official GIRM which is required for each OF Mass, please prove your points – if you can.

          Btw, both the OF and EF Masses use the majority of the exact same prayers during Mass.

          Don’t continue to try to bs anyone.
          I have both missals and will correct you.
          So rather than look foolish, be accurate, and use official documentation..

          Sometimes people like yourself who support the SSPX want to cause a rift between the OF and EF Masses of the Faithful.
          They believe they will get more support for the SSPX – which holds NO ministry within the Catholic Church.
          Ann Malley, your ulterior motives are showing.

          • Ann Malley says:

            DAVID V., you are the one with ulterior motives – that of ascribing your fear of being led away to others. So while you base your unfair assessment on the supposition of “sometime”, you deny the reality that I have never told anyone to shun the NO.

            Your using the term “they” as a pejorative is also telling as you are blindly ascribing stereotypes to others in order to shut down any logical analysis of the TLM as compared to the NO. The only reason I can ascertain you would do that is because you do not have any intellectual grasp of the differences involved and/or the history of “how” the NO came about – outside of what you have been told the motives are.

            God bless you just the same, but your ignorance is constantly showing and that’s part of the problem with dumbing down theology.

          • Campion says:

            David V., for the moment putting aside your unkind and unworthy name-calling of Ann M., perhaps you are referring to the 5th. edition, or redaction, of GIRM, which has gone a long way to correct the original 1968 version: that version which replaced the concept of the Mass as propiatory sacrifice (Trent) with Bugnini’s concept of “The Lord’s Supper.” For one thing, the new version (2011 or 2014, whichever you choose) of GIRM admits that the Mass codified at Trent actually existed in its fundamental form going back to at least Pope Innocent III (d. 1216), see n. 7. However, even the new GIRM calls the Mass “the Lord’s Supper” (n.16), which is the Protestant concept (both Cranmer and Luther) of a communal memorial meal celebration, instead of an eternal expiatory sacramental sacrifice for the sins of the living and the dead, re-enacting Christ’s atonement at Calvary once again. The New Order actually starts with celebration and memorial: “To prepare to celebrate the Sacred Mysteries, let us call to mind…” –c celebration and remembering. If thus is so, Christ is dead and gone forever and get He has no Real Presence anymore in our rite, which becomes a reminiscence, not a living Sacrifice.

            Well-known Vatican II New Mass liturgists in the USA such as the late John Gallen, SJ, and Jake Empereur, SJ, always decried fiercely the Traditional Mass as re-enacting of a sacrifice at Calvary, stressing instead a memorial “Supper of the Lord”.

          • Ann Malley says:

            ….thank you, Campion.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            David V is right on! You are a noble man.

          • Ann Malley says:

            When men hide the truth and reject common sense and the Faith in lieu of ideology, that is not noble, Abeca, but rather a sign of sickness gone on far too long.

            The encouragement of such insert-cotton-in-ears-drone-out-reality “leadership” is what has led us deeper into crisis as folks are encouraged to not think and learn, but opt for soundbytes of I’m holier than he/she compliments.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Ann Malley how do you know that he is not noble? Is it because you said so? Cindy is correct you have zero authority and you know why. Now if you return home to the Magesterium and actually humbly learn faithfully, it is then that you can share the faith in obedience, faithfully with Christ on your side but for now your in schism and not working with Christ’s grace to lead in Him who saves.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Campion, either you misunderstand the line from the liturgy that you quoted, or you deceptively quoted only part of it in order to try to prove your point.

            The full quote is “My brothers and sisters, to prepare ourselves to celebrate these sacred mysteries,
            let us call to mind our sins.” in the missal extant before 2011, and it now reads, “Brethren (-OR- brothers and sisters), let us acknowledge our sins,
            and so prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries.”

            In either case, it is clear that what we recall is OUR SINS, so that we may be worthy of celebrating the Sacred Mysteries. You are trying to pretend that what we are recalling is the Christ’s sacrifice, as if it were something past. Again, we are recalling OUR SINS.

            Please correct your analysis, and use the full quote so that you and others are not mislead.

          • Ann Malley says:

            ….Abeca, whether he is noble or not is not the issue, but rather that you seem to equate nobility with a single post with which you agree wholeheartedly out of self-imposed ignorance.

            Try humbly learning faithfully that you cannot cow other people by feigning humility while complimenting others for towing the gag-the-truth line. Submitting to sophistry and half truths is not of Jesus, no matter how many times you are told this is so.

            But hey, glad to oblige in your quest for reaction. Your attempt to sell ignorant and gladly so as a requirement of being Catholic needs to be countered. It is a really poor selling point if your objective is to transmit the “Catholic” Faith.

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley STILL doesn’t provide any liturgical authority to back up her claims, but instead relies upon defense of emotional and personal issues. Ann, PLEASE, provide EVIDENCE for what you say. Please stop relying on your personal interplay with others on this site.

            Well, it’s obvious why you don’t provide evidence. It’s because you can’t. There IS NO EVIDENCE to support YOUR CLAIMS.

        • Ann Malley, you complain about the OF Mass all the time.
          Do not be dishonest.

          If anyone was to believe your public rants as printed, it would drive them away from the Mass.

          You should be ashamed of yourself.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Lea, if you are tempted to flee the Church due to what I write of my own observations (and comparison with what the “Church” did previously), then perhaps you should look to deepening your actual knowledge of the Faith. Or do you get tempted to flee your family if, heaven forbid, anyone speaks of what was done in previous generations?

            When your grandparents say talk about how children were disciplined “back then” do you gather your chicks to your breast and flee the vicinity? Do you shield their ears when talk of how grandma and grandpa worked hard, sometimes supporting their own families when still quite young so as not to offend those who may be idling away with ipods and getting angry over having to pay for their own gasoline this summer? Do you gag anyone with knowledge of the family past? A past that is intended to lend strength and wisdom, Lea?

            We are to be innocent as doves, but wise as serpents, Lea. And coddling Catholics from the realities of the Faith and their own patrimony (the TLM and all that goes with it) is nothing but stunting. Shame on you for promoting ignorance and lassitude as necessary to keep Catholics Catholic.

            The hour in the garden is growing late, Lea, and it’s time to wake up from the stupor. Judas is near. He’d been laying his plans for some time. Wake up, Lea! If you are strong in the NO, great. But others are not. Wake up, Lea!

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Lea is correct. Ann Malley and her others of like minded are filled with cult like traits and have already and continue to do more harm than good. They are misleading people into their point of view just like the liberals are. The church is suffering due to many of its enemies. Its not just the homosexuals and bad priests who hurt the mission of the church but its also those in schism. They spread their errors and do not represent Christ. First of we know this because of their refusal to understand Christ and His church and their inability to distinguish authenticity and separating the sins of mankind to reaching historical conclusions that truly represent the root of the crises that face us currently. Both the EF and OF are holy when done in faithfulness. Do not be mislead that just because a parish has the EF only that they do not have sinners attending it. People need to separate those differences. The issue is not what approved mass is offered. There are lay faithful coming from both forms of Mass just like their is who dissent as well.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            Ah, yes, ” cult-like traits”.. more smearing and stereotyping.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Abeca, why you assume Catholics to be idiots who do not know full well that the Church has always been comprised of sinners is astounding. Your grotesque condescension as to the intellectual capabilities of others could be symptomatic of always having to relate to little children, but Abeca, CCD is not for little wee babies.

            Please stop spreading the error of having to maintain childish (not child like) sensibility in order to keep the Faith. We don’t need you to hold our hands while we attempt to cross the busy street of the internet. It will be okay…. especially if mac trucks aren’t made out to be Tomas the Tank Engine.

            Nobody but you ever implied that there weren’t any faithful at the NO mass. Methinks the lady doth read in too much.

          • Anonymous says:

            Lea, Ann Malley does not attend the Catholic Church. She does not like the Catholic Church. She has imbibed the poisoned wine of schism for so long that the things she believes are just unbelievable (to a Catholic.) But she expects you to pretend…

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Ann Malley your point of view states that you find what you “assume” astounding. I have no power over your theories. Especially since you cant even state concrete facts, you just quote “Ann Malley opinions” full of what you have been indoctrinated with. You have not paid attention to what many quote from actual church teachings and if you tried, you only take out of context or follow with misconstrued theory.

          • Ann Malley says:

            God love you, Abeca, but I don’t write the news or run the Church hierarchy. You are adorable though in that you reject facts, reason, fruits, anything that goes against what you’ve been told. Such blindness I cannot even comprehend – and thank goodness.

            But you mistake seeing the flaws and recognizing the gravity of despicable crisis and sorry betrayals from Church leadership as somehow losing Faith. Abeca, wake up. That is not the case at all. Quite the opposite.

            Please stop trying to say that Judas is not in the garden and that the Roman soldiers seeking to crucify Christ are mere figments. That is not Faith. That is delusion. This crisis and fallout is REAL, Abeca, but Christ does win. He has won. It’s okay. You don’t need to hide the scary parts from the kids. It’s time for us to grow up!

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Your sarcasm is something else. Of course your offended, you don’t like to be corrected, you and Steve. No you don’t write the news but many do write fake news that feed your fancy against Christ’s church. It is an injustice to believe everything you hear, it is a sin to assume that we do not understand the issues before us, it is a sin to assume and neglect the church history of sinners. Yes sinners Ann Malley, because that is what we all are. Sinners have been running Christ’s church since its beginning. We had the EF mass back then and still we had abuses! Your wanting to complain and keep on harassing us just because your Angry WITH WHAT YOU PERCEIVE. You may be correct on similar concerns we have but your bickering against the OF mass is wrong and that is what we are correcting here amongst other concerning things you and Steve try to sell here.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Abeca, you’re in no position to correct. That is the problem. One needs to be in a position of authority AND understand a subject before attempting a finger wag. Otherwise it comes off as someone playing around in mom’s high heels and lipstick. (I won’t go so far as to say it’s an outright sin, but overzealous to be sure. Out of line? Absolutely.)

            If you’d stop treating adult Catholics like tiny children, you may have better luck in conveying your concerns. But even so, your tactics of attempting to say that some write fake stories while engaging in dirt digging for stories yourself (Which, hey, could be fake, too. Hello.) only to derail honest observations and suggestions about how to get folks back into Church, is disingenuous to say the least.

            Be well, Abeca. And please, if you want my “serious” attention, stop trying to shut down those who have solid input on how to build up the Church in Faith, not just numbers. We’re talking souls here, girl.

        • Ann Malley, either you are very ignorant or lie. Which is it?
          The “SACRIFICE” of the Mass is taught in 10 separate paragraphs in the CCC (promulgated in 1997).

          Here are only two examples –
          CCC: ” 1330 The memorial of the Lord’s Passion and Resurrection.
          The HOLY SACRIFICE, because it makes present the one SACRIFICE of Christ the Savior and includes the Church’s offering.
          The terms HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS, “sacrifice of praise,” spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used, since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.
          The Holy and Divine Liturgy, because the Church’s whole liturgy finds its center and most intense expression in the celebration of this sacrament; in the same sense we also call its celebration the Sacred Mysteries. We speak of the Most Blessed Sacrament because it is the Sacrament of sacraments.
          The Eucharistic species reserved in the tabernacle are designated by this same name. ”

          CCC: ” 1088 “To accomplish so great a work” – the dispensation or communication of his work of salvation – “Christ is always present in his Church, especially in her liturgical celebrations.
          He is present in the SACRIFICE of the MASS not only in the person of his minister, ‘the same now offering, through the ministry of priests, who formerly offered himself on the cross,’ but especially in the Eucharistic species. By his power He is present in the sacraments so that when anybody baptizes, it is really Christ himself who baptizes.
          He is present in his word since it is He himself who speaks when the holy Scriptures are read in the Church.
          Lastly, he is present when the Church prays and sings, for he has promised ‘where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them.” “

          • Ann Malley says:

            PETE: Either you are reading from a script or you cannot think critically. Try to stop lying to yourself and others by downplaying discussions that can bear good fruit. Stop seeking to be “right” and seek solutions.

            When there is a crisis and souls are at stake, all avenues of addressing the problem should be reviewed. Your insistence that the form of the mass should be off the table could be construed as being as narrow minded, following your logic, as those who would state that we should just return immediately to the TLM. (And personally, I believe going back to the TLM would be a great idea…though gradually so as not to imitate the whiplash of past experimentation.)

            Do you whip out nutritional fact sheets when attempting to demonstrate the value of intravenous feeding to someone who prefers actual food? (Do you keep feeding your children baby formula forever or breast milk?) At some point those “patients” will rip out the feeding tube and go hunt for a steak house.

            That’s not to imply that the IV doesn’t have nutritional value, PETE. Please read for understanding before you accuse others of lying because of your laziness or attempts to appear virile in stamping down a non-problem. Looking at the feeding method and the needs of the patient are what is being proposed for the idea is to keep the alive – not reject nutrition because it is poorly presented.

            But hey, ENSURE is catching on.

          • Ann Malley, very few of your error ridden posts (and name calling) bear any good fruit.

            Start using official Church documents to bear good fruits, rather than your heretical opinions.

            Catholic Bible;
            Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition;
            GIRM (for the OF Mass);
            1962 Missal (for the EF Mass);
            Code of Canon Law;
            Documents on the Vatican web site;
            will each help you glean the truth and you will learn something.

            After you learn the truth, you will be able to pass on the truth.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Nice to know you Joyce! Are you a new poster or just another name added to the stack of those who enable error by way of hiding out? Defending a bad idea or less-than-best practice is no sign of fidelity.

            If you have a problem with truth, especially as shown via bad fruit, perhaps you should seek Bishop Athanaisus Schneider and Cardinal Burke with regards to the problematic nature of ambiguity and leaving the door open to creative option/interpretation.

            It would seem you have been stunted in your exploration of that which is official. After you get over yourself, perhaps you will be better able to digest what you read instead of just regurgitate undigested sound-bytes.

        • Dottie says:

          Ann Malley the Mass is not the problem.
          The problem is lack of catechesis.

          Next – are you saying that there is NO HOLY EUCHARIST in the Ordinary Form of the Mass,
          and that the HOLY EUCHARIST exists only in the Extraordinary (TLM) form of the Mass ?

          • Ann Malley says:

            Dottie, I don’t agree with your pronouncement about Mass. The rite of mass is part of the problem, or rather it could be the grace-fueled solution, if it were more solidly structured. i.e. priest facing people is no reinforcement of the sacrificial nature of the mass. Such postures lend themselves more to promoting the idea of the communal meal. Especially when the tabernacle is removed from the high altar. These are but a few examples. And one reason why I attend the TLM only.

            So while a lack of catechesis is a HUGE problem, the lack of catechesis coupled with a rite of mass open to too many options – no tabernacle front and center, priest facing the people instead of facing God in the Blessed Sacrament, no kneeling, enforced standing after Communion, handshaking placed in the midst of time that should be given to meditation/preparation, forced physical posturing like lifting up one’s hands, communion in one’s hand and standing, altar girls. These things reinforce ideas and ideals. They send messages – and not always the one’s we think they do.

          • Ann Malley says:

            to Dottie cont:

            You may not believe so, but actions and inaction and what we physically “do” teaches people, Dottie. Practices that do not reinforce the Faith will degrade the Faith, especially if they shift from parish to parish, priest to priest, diocese to diocese.

            That said, I have never ONCE intimated that the Blessed Sacrament is not validly confected at the Novus Ordo. Again – thank you for asking. It is precisely because Our Lord is present in the Blessed Sacrament, however, that I feel even more strongly that the rite of mass is critical and hugely important. And also why I find it odd that rigorous examination and I mean pin point, give-us-answers analysis of the rite of mass is not paramount in everyone’s mind on CCD.

    • Ralph, you are correct the vast majority of Mass goes in France attend the TLM only about 2% of French Catholics attend the dying Novus Ordo, the rest of France has a massive Muslim population stemming from Frances’ former North African colonies. Yes indeed the Novus Ordo will die out in a few years.

  2. Easy, bring back The Traditional Latin Mass and sacraments.

    • They are back.
      You just have to encourage others to request the EF Mass from their Diocese Bishop, and attend the EF Mass, without bad mouthing the OF Mass.
      You can start by calling it by its correct name – Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

      It might behoove some of the complainers who do little but complain in public – to read “SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM” on the Vatican web site – which brought back the EF (Latin) Mass, and tells people how to go about getting an EF Mass closer them.
      A petition to your Diocese Bishop would be most appropriate.

      • Ann Malley says:

        “…You just have to encourage others to request the EF Mass from their Diocese Bishop, and attend the EF Mass, without bad mouthing the OF Mass.”

        Naive, Lea. Wake up. For whereas you may be blessed – and I say blessed – with a Bishop who understands SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM and adheres to what it says, not all Bishops do. Neither do they want to, Lea. And discussing the objective fruits of the Novus Ordo Missae is not “bad mouthing”. Or would you accuse Emeritus Pope Benedict of such?

        Pope Benedict XVI has voiced his own reservations about the New Mass of Paul VI. Years ago, then-Cardinal Ratzinger lamented that he had hoped the liturgical reforms of Vatican II would draw from the riches of liturgical tradition, instead, he said, we “can only stand, deeply sorrowing, before the ruins of the very things that(we) were concerned for.”

        Of the New Mass, Cardinal Ratzinger said, “in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over the centuries and replaced it — as in a manufacturing process — with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”

        • Shannon says:

          At it AGAIN – Ann Malley.
          Bad mouthing the OF Mass ? ? ? ? ?

          Further please provide links to your supposed quotes from Cardinal Ratzinger / Pope Benedict.
          We have to make certain you are not using some heretical web sites.
          And we certainly can not take your word for anything.

          We all know that anyone can take a copy – documentation to a Diocese Bishop. In this case SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM. We can print it directly from the Vatican web site.
          Anyone visiting a Bishop or Priest without documentation – is most likely wasting his time.

          Glad you like Pope Benedict, since he was the one who publically wrote the letter in 2009 that the SSPX has no legitimate ministry within the Catholic Church.

          • Ann Malley says:

            You may not realize, Shannon, but devolving into “Malley” is further proof of desperation to defend that which is observably lacking. That and the inability (or unwillingness) to discuss the realities of something that frustrates you. (And when the article discusses how to get folks to come to Church.)

            I have no care whether you take “my” word for anything. The fruits, or rather lack thereof, speak for themselves. Try growing past the schoolyard and stop seeking scapegoat punching bags that only serve to detract from the problem.

            If you want the Society you obviously resent to disappear, try looking to the problem within the Church. Fix the problem and the boggie man goes away. Pretend the boogie man is really just a fun guy who scares only some people and you’ll continue to lash out in the dark you’ve created.

            Be well.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            So Ann Malley – please provide the entire document that Ratzinger wrote. Not a sentence fragment that requires you to paraphrase the subject, not a phrase taken out of the context of the entire thing that is written. Where is the entire sentence? Better, where is the entire document, so that we can understand fully what Ratzinger is saying? How can any of us determine whether you have made up things that Ratzinger intended to say unless you at least quote the entire sentence??

  3. You should pose the opposite question: what did we do to get people from STOP attending Mass? The following are the answers: Masses are no longer at convenient times. There used to be Masses for workers at 6:00am daily. Now the schedule is irregular at best, and the times are horrible. Priests once valued offering Mass, but now you have days without Mass, and then often a deacon or even worse, a female leads the people in a Communion service (which has no sacrificial aspect to it). The churches were recovated, and obnoxious songs are sung, and instead of being vertical in our approach to Mass, everything is horizontal (homo centric instead of theo centric). People once came to Mass to worship God, their Creator, now they come to church to worship themselves. Instead of expecting to receive sacramental graces at Mass, the people demand to feel good and get warm and fuzzy feelings at church. These are some of the main reasons why Mass attendance is way down. At parishes where the TLM is offered, there are increases in attendance, and people will drive from miles away to attend the Mass, because they know they are worshipping God there and not each other.

    • Anonymous says:

      “…often a deacon or even worse, a female leads the people in a Communion service.”
      Wow, Pilar, for a woman you sure seem to have disdain for women!
      What would the Blessed Mother say?
      Or Saint Catherine of Siena, whose memorial we just celebrated, and who was named a DOCTOR OF THE CHURCH – meaning she TEACHES men, women and children through her wisdom and faith.

      • Ann Malley says:

        ….actually, Pilar seems to be quite supportive of women. It is the insecure type that “feels” they must overrun that which is masculine to be found worthy. (That’s the real misogyny.)

        You may want to review the actual writings of St. Catherine of Siena and also St. Teresa of Avila. They’d likely be the first to correct the erroneous assumption that they, in any way, had eyes on the sanctuary for themselves. A good portion of their teaching was to do one’s duty – not scrabble to assume the duties of others. Be female, be strong, but don’t attempt to become a man because that’s not what “God” made you.

        That said, I’d venture the Blessed Mother would compliment Pilar on the exercise of true humility – that of knowing and loving in full what God has called her to be. Not what being female in today’s society insists she must be.

      • St Catherine would have been utterly shocked at the blasphemous suggestion of having a woman lead a communion service! Pillar is absolutely right! I saw a photo today of a woman so-called bishop of the Episcopal church in her mitre and she looked absolutely ridiculous…she was de-frocked apparently for killing someone while driving drunk. It’s all of a piece, really. I’m just surprised she was de- frocked. If you can be an openly homosexual bishop and ‘marry’ another man, what’s a measly DUI? But back to the original premise, that it is disdain for women to object to their taking on traditional male roles is like calling God a She even though Jesus calls Him Father…it is calling Jesus a liar. He did not have women disciples…women followed, and happy to do it, as am I.

        • Ann Malley says:

          ….the repainting of Saints Catherine and Teresa as some sort of women’s libbers who wanted to overtake the sanctuary is the same nonsense employed by those who would cast Margaret Sanger, a racist eugenicist, as some kind of women’s rights saint.

          Historically vacant and disgusting.

    • Steve Phoenix says:

      Pilar, you are right in what you are saying, but let me also focus on one particularly illustrative phrase you employed: “Priests once valued offering Mass..” Note: “offering the Mass..”

      The Traditional Latin Mass is an offering: it explicitly says so several times throughout it’s structure (“Suscipe, Sancte Pater” prayer, Offertory; “Quam Oblationem” prayer, Roman Canon, just to cite two for brevity’s sake). But the New Mass (and I can hear the shrieking begin now) is deliberately and explicitly NOT an offering: it was designed for a different purpose.

      This language (of “offering”) was explicitly expunged by Abp. Annibale Bugnini and the Consilium committee, exactly as Martin Luther had also done with the Lutheran “mass” (Luther’s famous critique of the Offertory: “From that point on, everything stinks of oblation…”). Bugnini and his observers, 6 of them Protestant, all of them “progressives”) pretending to be “archaeological liturgists” (the idea is not mine: it is the result of research by Fr. Stefano Carusi), claimed to have found evidence of a purer, more primitive Eucharistic liturgy.
      That is what we call the Novus Ordo liturgy. It is truly a New Order designed to expunge the “medieval concept” of “offering”.

      This expurgated liturgy does not require a priest to “offer” it. In fact, when Max Thurian, one of the Protestant observers asked (apparently Bugnini), “Could a Protestant minister offer this New Mass?”, he was told, “Yes” (interview in La Croix magazine, 1967).

      • Steve Phoenix says:

        This expurgated liturgy does not require a priest to “offer” it. In fact, when Max Thurian, one of the Protestant observers asked (apparently Bugnini), “Could a Protestant minister offer this New Mass?”, he was told, “Yes” (interview in La Croix magazine, 1967).

        So, is there really any pressing need for anyone to attend this New Mass? Well, priests don’t feel a need to “offer it” every day, and people are voting with their feet. Remember: 14 million US Catholics have left the Church since year 2000.

        • Marguerite says:

          Steve, your hatred for the Mass is sad, and also your expressions on this page contain errors.
          When I attend Mass on Sunday, the Eucharistic Prayer specifically says that we OFFER the Mass — for the Holy Father, for the Church, and so on.
          “We, your servants and your holy people, offer to your glorious majesty from the gifts you have given us, this pure victim, this holy victim, this spotless victim, the holy Bread of eternal life and the Chalice of everlasting life. Be pleased to look upon these offerings with a serene and kindly countenance…”
          I just copied this out of the Roman Missal, so I don’t know where you get YOUR ideas.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Marguerite, thank you for posting what you read in the missal. That said, what Steve has to say is not hatred just because you do not understand his point or because you haven’t been exposed to the same information.

            Perhaps if you ask him for further explanation instead of assuming “hatred” where there is none, you could get Steve to explain further. There is no need for fear here and/or aspersions of “hatred”.

            Perhaps the NO is all you know. Perhaps not. But Steve is not basing his observations on hatred, but rather on love of the Lord and love of Holy Mother Church and in extension, on love of neighbor.

            All of this reactionary defensiveness helps no one.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            First of all hatred exists in your own mind; it is an old canard to wrap oneself in a white robe while calling others “haters. ” Grow up.

            You are quoting from the Roman Canon (“Eucharistic Prayer I”)–you have proven my point. The fact that the word “offering” incidentally occurs occasionally in the rest of the EP’s of the New Mass does NOT define what (really Whom) is being offered, as does the Traditional Mass—that and ither prayers were purged (“Suscipe, Sante Pater” prayer, TLM offertory). That is because the “gifts” only represent the “participation of the faithful” (see GIRM 73-76), and “whether bread and wine. . or OTHER GIFTS to relieve the needs of the Church or of the poor”, they do not represent the priest offering the Sinless Victim, Christ Our Lord.

            But you didn’t know that, because you haven’t studied GIRM and it’s various editions. It originated with Bugnini, and it’s hard to repair a man-made liturgy.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            By the way, the excerpt you cite is from the Traditional Roman Mass Canon, which is rarely used in most parishes; usually they prefer Eucharistic prayers 2, 3 or 4. the Roman canon is the remnants of the traditional Latin Mass. I think you have proven my point.

          • How many priests use the Roman Canon (Eucharistic Prayer I) for Mass on Sunday in the Ordinary Form?

            Although Eucharistic Prayer II was meant to be used on weekdays it’s actually the one I hear most often at Sunday Ordinary Form Masses.

            The word “offer” or “offering” occurs most often in Eucharistic Prayer I, the Roman Canon. A quick search shows the word appearing once in EP I (but I could be wrong):
            “Therefore, as we celebrate the memorial of his Death and Resurrection, we offer you, Lord, the Bread of life and the Chalice of salvation, giving thanks that you have held us worthy to be in your presence and minister to you.”

            I’m not even certain that in the context of EP I we are offering a sacrifice! We are celebrating…

            “Offer” or “offering” occurs more or less eight times in EP I (Roman Canon) which is taken from the Latin used in the Extraordinary Form. Often it is used in the context of offering a sacrifice.

          • I my May 3, 2015 10:36 PM reply in the next to last paragraph EP I should be EP II.

          • Anonymous says:

            “An Man who fails to love the Mass fails to love Christ.” St. Josemaria Escriva

            Please educate yourself on the Holy Mass. Here is a place to start:

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Sacrificial language occurs outside of the Eucharistic Prayers. “Pray my brothers and sisters that this sacrifice will be acceptable to the Lord our God” “May the Lord accept this sacrifice at your hands…” is not a part of the EP, but is a clear acknowledgement on the part of the priest and the people of the nature of what is being done, and the washing of the hands is clearly a sacrificial symbol, as is the use of incense.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            You are correct, YFC, that the “Orate Fratres” prayer, a remnant also of the Traditional Roman Mass, contains a mention of sacrifice. I do not assert that all mentioning of “sacrifice” and “offering/oblation” are completely purged from the New Mass, but nearly entirely so. Where you find remnants, they are fragments left over from the Traditional Mass, usually however. I am appreciative that you are focusing on facts.

            However, what is it we are sacrificing? You and I know that it should be Jesus Christ to the Father. However, a large number of Catholics born later than 1970 (approx.) have the idea we are offering mere bread and wine, like Melchisedech from Genesis 15.

            This is why the “Suscipe, Sancte Pater” prayer is so important to the Mass—but it was very deliberately cut out by Bugnini. But I like that you are asking questions. After all, remember, for over 40 years we had an improper consecration language (“For you and for all”, a serious defection from the Words of Institution (“For you and for many..”) that Vatican II peritus Monsgr. Klaus Gamber said potentially rendered the consecration possibly invalid. Klaus Gamber was praised also by Ratzinger as a “true prophet” of the liturgy, by the way.

          • Anonymous says:

            Steve Phoenix, you think WE sacrifice Christ?

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          Marguerite: I also cited several research items, but you didn’t seem to consider them.

          Have you read the TLM “Suscipe, Sante Pater” prayer? Please ask yourself why this important “statement of purpose” prayer was deleted?

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            OK well, if you want to get into a pro-multis discussion, then we have to pull out our greek Bibles and go further back than the latin mass, since pro multis is not an exact translation of the Greek word pollon.


          • Canisius says:

            YFC the Church Fathers have settled it…its Pro-Multis deal with it…

        • Anonymous says:

          LET’s get some HONESTY here –

          Steve Phoenix, with the exception of the Eucharist, the Lord’s Prayer, and other parts coming straight from the Bible – which are in BOTH the OF and EF Masses –
          ALL other parts of the Liturgy are MAN made – approved by the Popes at various times in history.

          The EF (TLM/Latin) Mass was not celebrated as it is today – at the time of the Apostles.
          The gold Chalice, gold paten, vestments (clothing), etc, were not the same as celebrated by the Apostles either.
          This all developed over time.

          Every Pope has the authority to change both the OF and/or EF Liturgy,
          and may do so in the future.

          Do not be married to the format, be married to the Eucharist.

      • Anonymous says:

        Steve Phoenix, you do not have any authority to declare invalid what the Holy Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit has declared valid. Your misunderstandings and prejudices cannot undo a promulgation of the Pope. The Catholic Church does not have to conform to your idea of what is and isn’t a proper prayer.

        • Ann Malley says:

          ….why do you keep attempting to assert invalidity of the NO, Anonymous? Is there a script on that blindfold as well as mystical colors?

          I begin to suspect that “Anonymous” is nothing but a professional hacker intent on disruption. Are you even Catholic? Have you understanding of the Faith or are you working from a boiler plate cheat sheet?

          Your talking points are little more than rhetoric that doesn’t suit the conversation.

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          Yes, I would remain “Anonymous” if I had made such an assertion.

          So, let me propose to you a question: HERESY from the CCC (2089) (edited for brevity), as “the denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith..”

          The Traditional Latin Mass, according to the Denzinger Index of the Catholic Faith was divinely instituted by Christ, are we agreed? (cf. DS 1727) This was well prior to 1965, of course. (Just say “yes”, because it was.)

          However, we now have abundant documentary evidence that Abp. Annibale Bugnini and his advisors, including 6 Protestant observers, created the New Mass, in secret, in 1968 and induced Paul VI into believing, based on their “archeological studies of ancient rites”, that this Novus Ordo liturgy, written by men, was the Mass. (cf. M. Davies, R. Mattei, Klaus Gamber, even read Abp. Weakland’s autobiography for details). But this New Mass was created by men, not instituted by Christ. We have the testimony of the Consilium to that (Max Thurian, a Protestant at the time, created the completely a-Catholic “Blessed-be-God…” prayers, and talked about it later on many occasions.).

          Then, are you not compelled to avoid heresy, a denial of the truth mind you, that the N.O. Mass was and is a mere creation of man (Ratzinger himself called it a “fabrication”), and by contrast revere and respect the TLM, which alone has already been defined as having been instituted by Christ?

          • Ann Malley says:

            They are lukewarm, Steve, and afraid of a compromising hierarchy. Either that or they are under the delusion that the CCC only applies to the laity. Either that or this is the NO version of the dreaded “veil police”.

            Thanks again for your solid posting.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Lukewarm? You are lying to yourself and only to yourself and Steve… have no better arguments so yes of course, we can expect this lame rebuttal.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Abeca, you set yourself above the magisterium and the official pronouncement of the Church in your overzealous protestations. You are nothing but a veiled, veil police, unable or rather unwilling to take a realistic look at your own off-putting machinations.

            Stop being so afraid of the truth. It will set you free.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Jesus is my Lord and savior, He is my truth and the way, so i shall not fear. Your rebuttal is not at all representative of the truth. Pax Christi.

          • Ann Malley says:

            My rebuttal is the truth about what you are doing, Abeca, when you go over and above the “official” Church statements to attack those whom you want to vilify. That is shameful and you should repent of it if you are all for Jesus as you say. But your conscience is your own. But this notion that you are “fighting the good fight – inside” is more inside your own head. For what purpose I know not because you do not lend yourself to true unity – which is only to be found in the full Truth and the fullness of the Catholic Faith.

          • Anonymous says:

            Denzinger 1727 does not say that Christ instituted the TLM. “just say yes” ? Um, no, you just lied.
            If you believe that man created the Holy Mass, then you are the heretic.
            What man would ever be even able to invent our Lord coming from Heaven in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity to be consumed by sinful man? What man would be able to invent that our Lord would remain on Earth under the appearance of a small piece of bread?

  4. Most people are interested in TRUTH,
    not some priest’s or catechist’s personal opinion which can be in error.

    Most parish priests (and many Diocese Bishops) do not encourage the reading of Sacred Scripture (Bible) and the Doctrine of the Faith (CCC) by the Laity at home.
    Education is critical for knowing Christ.

    After that, one should read GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) which can be found on the Vatican and USCCB web sites – for what is happening at the OF Mass, and how a Priest and the Laity must behave.

  5. Bob One says:

    I suspect that the Priests have read all the research and gone out to study parishes who use best practices. Putting that data to use is the hard part, because it means change. You can’t increase the number of people, especially the younger ones, if there isn’t change. I have always wondered how a single minister can start a church in a strip mall and ten years later build a mega-church that attracts five thousand people a week. The research I have read indicates that an emphasis on Bible study is a key factor;people have their Bibles in their hands during the sermon. You can’t just go to church on Sunday morning, you need to be there for Wednesday night Bible study, the kids need to be in the youth groups, married couples in their groups, etc. Second, the sermons have got to be life transforming. Bland sermons don’t attract people to the pews. Third, the music has to be inspirational. The churches that are full, even main line churches, usually have an outstanding music program; great choirs, bell choirs, great instrumental bands or orchestras, and great hymns. And, these folks don’t even have the Mass and the Real Presence. Without changing our theology, we might consider how we change the way we “do” church. But that would require change and I’m pretty set in my ways.

    • Ann Malley says:

      St. John Vianney grew his parish by teaching the hard truth when dancing and carousing was the order of the day. He didn’t “change”. He prayed, fasted, taught, and prayed, fasted, and taught some more. Targeting the head of the household with Truth is often the best means of transforming families – that is why the robust, solemn, straight shooting, sacrificial nature of the TLM is so transforming and effective.

      This idea that the Church must change to attract the youth is folly. For that will lead to the Church of Change as there are always new “young” people to whom we are falsely being led to believe we “must” cater.

      • That is the best example, Ann! No one was even attending Mass when he arrived in Ars.

        • Ann Malley says:

          …reading the Cure of Ars sermons will also testify to just how unchanging he was regarding the preaching of the truth. Sobering! But his parish boomed and likely he helped save many souls.

          • Catherine says:

            All of our Catholic teachings and Traditions are what always helped to fill those pews on Sundays. These are the devotions, customs, practices and Traditions that many do not know about. Many DO know them and they do NOT want them taught because they represent cutting off the permission slips for ambiguity. They suppressed many of these holy practices and customs while also suppressing the TLM. The important tradition of preaching from the pulpit about the mortally sinful use of artificial contraception was caved in and diminished when our own lead shepherds rejected Humanae Vitae. Many essentially gave the laity permission to simply follow their own conscience. Lenient pastors thought that if they ignored topics on abortion, contraception and homosexuality then everyone’s conscience would feel comfy cozy and the pews would be full with the money rolling in. …. Not so. Especially when that conscience has also been taught that there is no such thing as sin any more. Who are we to judge? Traditionally speaking, obedient Catholics are still having the babies. Those pews are being filled and replenished. The Catholic Church has the Full Truth but disobedience created an empty vacuum and that vacuum (population) is NOW being filled by Muslim mothers having all of the babies that Catholic mothers were once known for having. If you don’t believe it. Look at Europe. The mosques are full and they are filling up in the U.S.



      • Catherine says:

        I agree Dana! Great post Ann Malley! The hard truths!

        With the grace of God you help to get them through the door with going back to basics. The basics formed the great saints. You’re right! Look to the example of St. John Vianney, the patron saint of all priests.

        People do not know the real meaning of the Mass because we are now competing with protestant practices even during Mass. Yes, and for a great fire sale discount price you can even convince your conscience to purchase a sterile cold looking Protestant church building and then tell that same lax conscience to pretend when discounting the sheer reality that it was our Lord who was really the MOST discounted. No wonder the pews are empty!


        • Catherine says:

          “My people perish for lack of knowledge” = Empty pews

          Empty pews mean an emptiness is imparting the Faith. Something is very wrong. Why do we feel the need to compete with or follow protestant customs, and protestant music and practices during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? Is it holy and reverent to insult Our Lord during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by choosing to perish from our own choice to have a lack of knowledge? Here is another example that cries out to be addressed since we don’t seem to know any better. Why are grade school children marched right out of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with the protestant-like practice of having a Sunday school teacher in the auditorium? I’m sure the devil loves the pull of a coloring book over the grace filled pull of being drawn to the Real Presence. Do we truly understand the REAL meaning of the Mass when the first thing done after the beginning prayers is for a Catholic priest to allow or encourage the ushering of Jesus’s little ones right back out the door instead of Jesus’s little ones remaining in the church to receive the powerful graces present during the Mass? This is a common practice and yet people wonder why the pews are eventually empty. During times of great crisis where the teachings are not known or ignored (contraception, abortion, adultery, remarriages) Calvary chapel-like atmospheres will seem more knowledgeable, inviting, comforting and welcoming to people like Abeca and her wounded girlfriends, especially if the people do not even realize why they are Catholic or what is taking place or WHO is really present there.


          • Catherine says:

            Ann Malley, It IS a sickness and the most debilitating part of this self-imposed sickness is the still absent lack of desire to truly find out what the root of the sickness is. It is a rejection of clarifying sound Catholic teachings and masculine sounding leadership. A few months ago at Mass a visiting priest from India wanted to raise money to stop the murdering of unborn baby girls and newborn baby girls. This is a common practice in India. This is an important work but not at the expense of including another agenda or losing clear Catholic identity. This priest wanted to start a television station in India to reach millions and he was asking for donations. This priest started out by using the word “inclusiveness”. IOW little girls are also being excluded just like the mean ole stodgy Traditional Catholics who have excluded those with the “inclusive gift” of homosexuality. Ann, Why didn’t this priest just stick to basics? The Catholic Church IS the refuge of all sinners and welcomes all sinners. The teachings are clear. Killing is always wrong. All men/boys are welcome and all women/girls are welcome in the Catholic Church. Our own clergy constantly uses that word “inclusive”. They are beating the same sounding similar politically correct drum of the secular world. To beat the “inclusive drum” is to play into the same lingo strategy game that pro-choice advocates used to “inclusively” include the words “pro-choice” (abortion).

        • Catherine says:

          Please don’t say that removing children from Mass builds a sense of community for them either because you’ll really be proving that you still do not “get it”. Didn’t Jesus rebuke those who tried to remove the children who were coming forth to meet Him by saying, “Suffer the little children to come unto me.”

          How unbelievably insulting to Jesus. How unbelievably Protestant we have become in these practices. Is a Sunday school teacher/volunteer, no matter how nice he or she is going to be able to impart the same graces and blessings that are present during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? What pastor who truly believes in the ‘Real Presence” would ever illogically think that this is a good thing. Wake up, our pews are empty because we have traded our traditions and customs for Protestant practices. It is a protestant thing/practice, not a Catholic Tradition, to remove children from Mass. If we truly believe that Jesus is present in the Tabernacle (and we do) then what are we saying to Jesus when we show Jesus that a weekend Sunday volunteer can impart or infuse more blessings and graces than the Son of God. This is just one example of many that proves a great lack of understanding and it is only one of many that have been taking place during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            There is an ancient tradition of having the uninitiated leave after the liturgy of the Word. Since they are not yet admitted to the Sacred Mysteries, it is better to open the Word more fully for those still learning to comprehend the Gospel. This is why we sometimes call the Liturgy of the Word, the Mass of the Catechumens. With the restoration of the RCIA, this ancient practice has regained its proper role. This is just one of the ways that Vatican II actually restored some ancient practices that had fallen into disuse over the centuries.

          • Anonymous says:

            I personally do not like the practice but it is not against the Church’s norms:

          • Anonymous says:

            YFC, since the Children are baptized they are permitted to attend the Liturgy of the Eucharist. They are taken out for the Liturgy of the Word to be presented to them in a way that is suitable for their level of understanding. This is for small children who have not yet made their First Communion.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Excellent posts, Catherine…. and true. When the time is right, the truth in its fullness will be preached. But thanks to many “helpful” individuals who think suppression equates to Faith, and like to fancy themselves at the peak of fidelity, there will be a lot of self-inflicted pain first.

            What I cannot abide is the nauseating “why” “how” “oh, my” and other such empty questions because when push comes to shove, these “faithful” don’t want to know why, how, and the oh my is only a realization of possible complicity in undermining the gift of Faith that was handed down. Hence the doubling-down on the search for scapegoats and looking to “other religions” to “learn.”

            It’s a sickness.

    • BobOne, with two parents working, helping children with homework, cost of babysitters, etc., etc., etc., most people can not get to Church for weekly scheduled formal classes.

      However, there is no excuse for Priests not to forcefully encourage the Laity – age 14 and up to read a Catholic Bible at HOME (instead of watching TV or being on the internet, etc.)
      Most Priests are lax in this encouragement if any at all. (Check out any 4 Parish and Diocese web sites for proof of zero encouragement on 3 out of 4).

      How many Priests teach about the Plenary Indulgence available for reading an approved Bible ? (Where ?)

      Homilies, Parish Bulletins, and Parish and Diocese web sites should ALL encourage at HOME reading of the Bible and CCC.

      And then the Laity have an obligation to read the Bible and CCC at HOME.

      CCC: ” 133 The Church forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures.
      Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ. “

    • Canisius says:

      Bob One, sometimes I wonder if you are even aware of Church history… We have the examples of the great saints like Patrick, James, Paul who basically on their own convert the Western world. We do not need any novelties or to be “hip” we need the Priests to preach the hard Truths….end of story

      • Bob One says:

        Canisius, you are correct again, in a way! We do have Patrick, James and Paul. Let’s think of Paul, who is responsible for a lot of conversions. Nearly every Sunday there is a reading from one of his letters. In nearly every reading Paul gives the people of Corinth, Rome, Turkey, Ephesus, Philippi and Colassae a lesson on how to change, how to live differently, how to treat each other differently. Paul is all about change. If Paul and the other Apostles had not changed the way that the Jews worshiped we would still be in the Synagogues on weekends. Think of our TLM, which was formulated in the 1500s. It was a codification of a lot of different worship styles. It was a change. The Church has survived because the Holy Spirit gave it the wisdom to change, not basic truth, its outer garments.

        • Ann Malley says:

          …the Church survives by way of sticking to the Truth, Bob One, not because She changes clothes.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Ann Malley you make false statements. The church contains the truth. What you describe is the sins of men who have free will and not all accept its truth. Just like you, who is a heretic.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Abeca, you’re overstepping the “official” position of the Church again.

            I’m not sure what your beef is, but there is nothing incorrect in stating that the Church survives by sticking to the Truth, for the Truth is Christ. What you are describing by way of your behavior is an unhealthy zeal and the desire to be more than what you are. A simple sheep like the rest of us.

            God bless

          • Catherine says:

            “…the Church survives by way of sticking to the Truth, Bob One, not because She changes clothes. ”

            Thank you Ann Malley! A cautionary warning to all faithful priests. The Diocese of Orange Ca. was using a video indoctrination training tape called ‘Tradition.’ Bob One’s post reminded me of the very slippery and sneaky way that infiltrators are dismantling Church teaching as well as solid Traditions. This video was shown to the new religion and CCD teachers who would be instructing the children of our diocese. This video was anything but Tradition. The instructor also told the class that she often made up stories to move hearts and sway opinions. My friend who was taking the mandatory class told me about this particular training video that she was shown in class. My friend was extremely bothered by this training video. The instructor was banking on everyone being either clueless and further dumbing down new religion teachers. I asked my friend to ask the instructor at the next scheduled class if she (my friend) could borrow the videotape titled ‘Tradition’ to watch again at home. The instructor said yes and gave my friend the video to watch at home. Ann when I viewed this video being used to instruct religion teachers I could hardly believe what was on this video. I showed this video to several faithful priests in our diocese to view and they watched the entire video. Ann these faithful priests called this video “diabolical” especially since the title was called Tradition.


          • Ann Malley says:

            I interact on other blogs with degree holding theologians who “train” RCIA instructors. These highly motivated individuals downgrade whatever aspect of Church teachings and/or individual saints to mostly politically motivated spew, the outpouring of personal depression issues, and/or some form of Pharisaical machination intended to keep God in a box. (Kind of like the Pharisaical/political motivated idea of syncretism.)

            One poster trashed the notion of Original sin as a manifestation of St. Augustine’s mind only to uphold a teaching of St. Augustine that one should love God and do as one wills. (The “love” of God being relegated to just doing whatever you want and not questioning or clarifying the beliefs of others because that’s not nice.)

            The end goal of these individuals who are forming RICA is to make God’s Kingdom on earth. Not the Kingdom of Christ, no, the kingdom of that old coca cola commercial. It is wholly diabolical, completely against the gospel, against reason/logic, not Catholic and completely different from what the Catholic Church “currently” teaches in her written doctrine.

            These are the kind of folks that will defend Catholics usage of the word “blasphemy” when referring to Mohammed. Not his blaspheming God, but rather the “blasphemy” of making light of Mohammed etc. These “theologians” actually defend Islam, not the individual adherents, mind you, but the “revelations.” Who knows?

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          Bob One, the TOM was NOT “formulated in the 1500’s”: even the most recent version of GIRM acknowledges it goes back in the same for to P. INNOCENT III (d. 1216). In fact, the Verona and Gelasian Sacramentaries (ca. 600’s-700’s) contain much I found the same orations and prayers. In S. Ambrose’s opus, De Sacramentiis (398 AD), the prayers of the Roman Canon are mentioned by him (Quam Oblationem, Hanc Igitur, etc). Please update this.

          • Christine says:

            Steve Phoenix, thank you for proving that Popes have the authority to change the Liturgy in either form of the Mass.

            And changes have been made many times since the time of the Apostles.

    • Bob One – the “change” needed today is to encourage the reading of the Bible and the CCC.
      These are the two most important books of the Catholic Faith, and most Catholics have never read them in entirety.

      • Ann Malley says:

        Yes, Nancy, and in addition to what you suggest, Catholics should study the history of the Church and the “changes” that have worked for good and/or ill – much like the forced abuse of communion in the hand which has directly undermined belief in the Blessed Sacrament.

        Understanding the “why” and “how” behind the scenes lends greater visibility to why it is critical to not just “accept” everything. And why keeping the Faith is often more than just follow the leader.

      • Anonymous says:

        You should read the official documents of the Church as well.

  6. Vatican II Document – “Sacrosanctum Concilium” on the Sacred Liturgy – which is part of the Dogmatic Constitution states:

    ” 22.3 Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority”.

    For a priest to add anything to the Mass it is an abuse. And should be reported to the appropriate Diocese Bishop.
    _ _ _ _ _
    Encourage all literate Catholics to read both the Bible and CCC at home – during the homily (from the pulpit), in the parish bulletin, and on parish and diocese web sites.

    CCC: ” 133 The Church “forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures.
    Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ. “

    • Ann Malley says:

      ….and yet novelty is usually introduced in spite of this admonition under the guise of being pastoral. “…because we must reach out to people.” As if the temptation to carouse and do what we will is something entirely new to human nature.

      The hard road of the St. John Vianneys are cast aside as outdated or no longer effective – despite the recognizable appeal of not “Traditionalists”, but rather the tradition of the Catholic Faith and the Faith itself.

      • DAVID V. says:

        No Ann Malley, deviations of GIRM are not permitted by any Priest, or any Lay person.

        If any Priest allows abuses (changes) Mass by himself or allows changes by those attending Mass – and does not conform when confronted in private – using GIRM as documentation –
        the person doing the correcting is DUTY bound to report said abuses to the appropriate Diocese Bishop.

        Laziness on the part of the Laity is no excuse for continuing abuses at Mass.
        And that includes the LAZINESS of anyone reading this post. 🙁
        If the shoe fits wear it.

        CCC: ” 907 In accord with the knowledge, competence, and preeminence which they possess, [lay people] have the right and even at times a DUTY to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church,
        and they have a right to make their opinion known to the other Christian faithful,
        with due regard to the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward their pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons .”

        • Abeca Christian says:

          MAC and David V well said but she wont reflect in those facts. Im afraid she has a hardened heart to those truths. Its not hard to see.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Nobody is denying the need to point out liturgical abuses, Abeca, and/or the admonishments in the GIRM. Rather the point you all don’t want to ponder, accept, or digest is the reality that those in authority are exercising their positions of authority to ignore the abuses and/or to use loopholes defined as “pastoral” to excuse them.

            So you can be well said all you’d like about how we should write letters, etc, but it becomes somewhat of a moot point if the official policy practiced on the other end is to round-file them (that means throw the letters out, Abeca.) And name calling or shaming the laity for being “lazy” is not going to make them open the letters, Abecca, or change. That’s just a lovely little mind game to make you feel guilty for being abused – and here you were getting upset for your friend being blamed for her husband’s porn usage.

            Good grief.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Bishop Williamson ousted from SSPX!

            CWN – October 24, 2012

            The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) has expelled Bishop Richard Williamson, citing the outspoken prelate’s persistent refusal to obey his superiors in the traditionalist society.

            Bishop Williamson — who earned worldwide notoriety for his statements questioning the severity of the Holocaust — has clashed with SSPX leadership repeatedly, complicating efforts to reconcile the group with the Holy See. He has continued to produce a regular newsletter in defiance of the SSPX leader, Bishop Bernard Fellay, and he recently traveled to Brazil to administer the sacrament of Confirmation without approval from the SSPX leadership.

            The SSPX confirmed that Bishop Williamson has been expelled, for “having distanced himself from the management and the government of the SSPX for several years and refusing to show due respect and obedience to his lawful superiors.”

          • Ann Malley says:

            God bless you again, Abeca, for showing how head-strong Catholics, even Bishops, are to be dealt with when they behave badly. I wish the same disciplinary action would be taken with those within the Church who are openly promoting heresy (much like +Kasper and crew) under the banner of full communion.

            For while +Williamson may be attempting to build his own group on the outside, +Kasper and the like, because they HAVEN’T BEEN EXPELLED OR CORRECTED, have built huge factions of dissent inside the Catholic Church. The Holy Father has given +Kasper open praise which is a scandal, Abeca.

            So the next time you lament “why” and “how can this be”, there’s your answer. For if the proper authority doesn’t correct, your admonishments mean nothing. Much like a wife who has no backing from her husband in correcting the kids. I’ve no doubt your girlfriend knows exactly what I mean.

            God bless you again for your dredging zeal!

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Glad you liked that, Ill re-post more especially how they tried hiding and moving around a couple of priests of some sort of sexual abuse. Was not handled well but thanks to some of your members who spoke up. I think there is a case that I posted before how it still was not resolved well either. Ann Malley I know it hurts you to see the imperfections but remember that while you come here to harass us for not giving you what YOU want, that it does not mean we are not aware of what We, as a church militant, are dealing with…….you just want to work against us because it is the church you hate and are heavily immersed in much ill truths about it. God help us all. There is a lack of understanding especially since you are on the outside. We remain faithful and obedient and our convictions for the truth are steadfast and strong. Jesus is the reason why I’m standing strong here…..without Him, I’d be lost wondering about, who knows what church outside of His church. It is He who saves and His faith, church is a gift. Not to be taken for granted, this is why we fight the good fight and hurt when people disrespect it or misrepresent its truths shining from Christ. Gracias mujer.

          • Ann Malley says:

            What hurts me is to bear witness to your delusion, Abeca. The truth shining from Christ is that which you are attempting left and right to hide. It’s truly sad….. and no help.

            But you illustrate with every post what is ailing Mother Church. That in itself will help in exposing the ideological blindness that needs to be weeded out.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Gosh Ann Malley you sure have alot of hatred. But its true as the saying goes, there will always be people who hate Christ’s church. Such is life.

          • Ann Malley says:

            So stop hating, Abeca, by hiding the wounds. It is not hatred to seek the aid of the physician and to get the help needed one needs by being thorough, honest, and forthright in examining all. Not hiding the source of the boil and then begging for another antibiotic option because one doesn’t want to reveal the sore spot.

            Options are running out, Abeca. This is precisely why priests are having to be polled to determine WHO will defend marriage and family. Or do you prefer to hide, asking why while being to afraid to get the answers?

            Have Faith!

      • Ann Malley says:

        David V., attributing liturgical abuses to a lazy laity is absurd. For “reporting” shenanigans is no guarantee of the cessation of shenanigans. It’s merely a temperature gauge to determine when enough paying folks have had enough so as to know when, perhaps, to throttle down and avoid losing parishioners. It also makes the sheep “feel” like they have something to “do” in a bad situation – even if what they “do” is completely ignored. Like a placebo of having done one’s duty according to their “rights”. Lovely language to make one “feel” empowered.

        Communion in the hand was introduced as an abuse, David V., and complaints against it did zero to stop its being imposed unlawfully on the faithful. Why? Because the bishops wanted it – that is “some” bishops wanted it. Enough to push it through without care for the rights of the sheep and/or the knowledge of how it could and “did” abrade the Faith in the Real Presence. And absolutely no care for the duty to give Our Lord the best we can give instead of the least of what we can get away with doing.

        So while you capitalize laziness in some effort to shame the laity into believing it was/is their fault when priests and Bishops behave badly, you do nothing but underscore the reality that the true LAZINESS is in believing without question everything you’re being told without a care for what the Church has always taught, held, promoted and WHY.

        • Ann Malley, so you abdicate your own responsibility – in reporting abuses ?
          You are just as guilty as bad Bishops, bad Priests, and other bad Laity.

          Own up to your own responsibility. Since you complain all the time, you must have first hand information – or are merely hot air.
          Apparently all you do is hoop and holler – where it does zero good since none of us has the authority to fix the abuses at the OF Mass that you have said you witnessed.
          Then you make assumed excuses for your own laziness.

          Code of Canon LAW is much like the CCC in this matter. This is not new.
          Under Rights and OBLIGATIONS of the Christian Faithful –
          ” Can 212 §3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the DUTY to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.”

          • Ann Malley says:

            Cindy, you seem to abdicate the need for engaging one’s intellect in such matters. For you stop short at letter writing about abuses that, in many, not all cases, are already fully known by the hierarchy and then proceed to brand others as “shameful” for speaking out about the disconnects.

            The cow is long since out of the barn, friend, and letter writing won’t bring the cow back. It won’t fix the fence either. Rather looking at those who are to mend the fence and understanding that they have no intention of fixing the fence will go further – how? – it may wake folks up to the reality that we need to recapture the cow ourselves.

            We need to warn those inside the fence away from the broken rails and fix the blinking fence, Cindy. It also may wake folks up to understand that not all those chartered with minding the cows want to keep them safely within the fence. (So while you holler about what you think I’m doing, Cindy, nothing new, I’m exercising my rights and doing my duty.)

            So whereas you state:
            “…Apparently all you do is hoop and holler – where it does zero good since none of us has the authority to fix the abuses at the OF Mass that you have said you witnessed.”

            All you do is attempt to silence others who are trying to do more, even if only by way of communicating the objective perfidy of those who “do” have authority, Cindy.

          • Cindy, where is all this self- righteous anger coming from? Ann never whoops and hollers, for one thing. All Ann, Steve, Catherine,and others are saying is the original Latin Mass, used for millennia, didn’t and shouldn’t be changed. Why does that drive so many of you to start frothing at the mouth? They present reasonable arguments with authority and infinite patience. In contrast, those who offer counter arguments call them names…hypocrites, liars, schismatics, heretics, etc. correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the so- called New Order Mass written in a few hours on a cocktail napkin at an outdoor cafe? I exaggerate, but the story bears repeating. As Ann Landers used to say, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!” When I returned to faith in God, many years ago, the most difficult thing was admitting I was wrong and humbling myself. Some of you take support of traditional Catholicism as a personal attack on you. This is nothing about you but everything to do with the eternal consequences in the battle of good and evil. Millions of people have left the Churh,,,and more are leaving everyday. That should concern us all! The very heart of our faith is the Eucharist. If you wanted to destroy the Church, just how would you go about it? Know thine enemy. Pray. Read of the Arian heresy. But most of all stop treating faithful Catholics as the enemy.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Cindy glad you caught that. This is why people need to learn the CCC, holy scriptures etc so people like Ann Malley, Steve, bad priests, heretics, agenda driven bad willed etc etc do not stray them away.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            “…people like Ann Malley, Steve, bad priests, heretics, agenda driven bad willed..”

            Ah-ah-ah: Ms. Christian, you are smearing and demonizing again. Luke 6:37 applies to you also, Ms. Chrissstian.
            Why not just focus on the facts

          • Ann Malley says:

            …caught what, Abeca? The disease of thinking that letter writing is all one can do? The roll-over-and-play-dead game of calling others out for speaking up and then stating that we’re “helpless”. That’ll really keep folks in the Church, Abeca, busying folks writing letters while telling them there is nothing they can do because their Church leaders are off track.

            That may work for you, but there are others who will do more, are called to do more, and have to do more. Why? Because they have a greater understanding and a very decided role to play that you, fearful as you are, cannot grasp.

            So have FAITH, Abeca, and let God work where He wills instead of treating adults like infants. The saccharin is nauseating. And the saccharin in combination with the foot stomping and curl shaking is just laughable. Enough to “stray away” those with eyes to see and ears to hear, Abeca. Adults don’t like being treated like babies….and they shouldn’t like it either.

            We are to fight for Mother Church, not coddle her members into a coma.

          • Ann Malley says:

            What you see here, Dana, is the product of laity being told that to get the fullness of the Faith, they must shut up about the Faith and the fullness thereof. Shutting up is the new proof of Faith. It’s a CYA approach, minus in many cases, any true intention of turning the ship ’round to the proscribed path.

            These folks who froth have been taught wrongly that those who hold the Faith and know their history are to be eliminated – much like a conquering society attempts to abolish all of the art, advances, and culture of that which they desire to supplant. It’s sad, considering we’re supposed to be Catholic – and that does include, contrary to many’s views taken to fruition, those Catholics who held the Faith that is hammered as divisive right here on CCD by so-called faithful Catholics. (For that Faith is nothing other than what was passed down.)

            We are stripped of our history, our patrimony, our logic, and it is a shame. I thank God for His having given me the opportunity to understand the disconnects from pre vs post VII (and I’m using VII as merely a symbol of shifting) for otherwise I’d never have been able to reconcile the disparity.

            Thanks again for posting…

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 22):
            “As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered – so the Lord commands – as a heathen and a publican. It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.”[25]

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Bishop Tissier De Mallerais of the SSPX rejects the concept of Church communion and says Benedict XVI has taught heresies .

            Every Kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and no town or house divided against itself will stand. (Matthew 12:25)

            Also what happend to Father John Rizzo, Ex-SSPX was an injustice that the SSPX has committed against him!

            That the Church rather frowns on schism should come as no surprise. After all, this particular violation of the moral law represents an assault on her very integrity as the Mystical Body of Christ. From St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians (cf. 1 Cor. 1:10-14) to the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church (#817), the Church has always recognized that sins of schism are egregious violations of Our Lord’s commandment to love one another (John 13:34).

        • Ann Malley, some Priests and some Laity do abuse the Mass.

          When you personally witness this, it is YOUR obligation to contact the offending, Priest, or Diocese Bishop, or Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments at the Vatican.

          Only after you have done your duty can you state that the CONTINUATION of such abuses are not YOUR fault.

          Especially since you write about abuses, you must have a lot of first hand information or are merely a gossip and slanderer.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Cindy, some people have come to realize that the ability to abuse is often a weakness of the rite itself. Your continued misconstruing of the legitimate argument that the TLM is visibly and demonstrably a more solid rite in forming the faithful is PROOF that you do not understand the concept of DUTY….outside letter writing and being a scold.

            For you cannot even read what a poster writes, but rather are hard wired to assume in order to deliver what appears to be your favorite finger-wag, you must not experience much effectivity.

            This shallow approach could also be why there is no call to review the integrity of the new rite of mass. Preventative measures and or the concept of rational management after the fact seems to escape you.

            So if you want man the letter writing report for abuses, go for it. But the Mystical Body includes those with different charisms. In this instance, there are those who are intent on doing a deeper dive than – oh, no, this bad thing is happening.

            They are inclined to ask WHY something is happening and treat the problem from that perspective. Kind of like a thorough physical, Cindy. That’s when everything gets checked because the body is showing signs of weakness And a BandAid approach just won’t cut it.

            So STOP, if you can, attempting to slander others by way own limited understanding. Be accurate. Be brave.

          • Anonymous says:

            She can’t witness it. She does not go to Mass.

  7. Canisius says:

    Preach the hard truths of the Faith, and they will come, have very Liturgy preferably the TLM or NO adorientum

  8. Jesusita says:

    When I was attending Catholic high school in the middle 1960’s, I was being taught that your parents cannot force you to attend Mass, and that if you not want to attend Mass later on as an adult, you did not have to. I knew this was garbage, and never fell for this. However, thousands of young Catholics did, and now, as senior citizens, they are unchurched, and seldom if ever attend Mass. These are the fruits of Vatican II. Ave Maria Purrissima !

    • Ann Malley says:

      ..I lived through similar “instruction”, Jesuita. Those who didn’t are now told that that’s just made up nonsense. But being reared on the Kool Aid that it was all the fault of the lazy laity has left its mark.

  9. Linda Maria says:

    St. Vincent’s is a beautiful, traditional Catholic church! Of course, true Catholics love to go to Mass, there! But the Mass that all devout Catholics will drive miles and miles for– is the Tridentine Mass!! The priest in the photo, with altar boys– is saying the old Latin Tridentine Mass!

    • Liz Miller says:

      I couldn’t agree more with Linda Maria. We have a small church in San Diego, St. Anne’s, that was almost abandoned. Once the Latin Mass returned, with communion rail & all the beautiful rites I grew up with, it is standing room only. We catholics yearn for something more deeper than folk music, clapping, “feel good” routine that is practiced today. I drive 22 miles to attend holy mass at St. Anne’s.

    • Linda Marie: ” Mass that all devout Catholics will drive miles and miles for – is the Tridentine Mass ” – Prove it.
      Prove that the only devout Catholics attend an EF Mass, or don’t have to drive any distance in the USA.

      ” ”
      Art. 5, §1 In parishes where a group of the faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition stably exists, the parish priest should willingly accede to their requests to celebrate Holy Mass according to the rite of the 1962 Roman Missal.
      He should ensure that the good of these members of the faithful is harmonized with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish,
      under the governance of the bishop in accordance with Canon 392,
      avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church. ”

      All someone has to do is print out the posts of the heretics, and send them to Pope Francis.
      Those of you causing discord and sinning against Unity in the Church – can destroy the EF Mass for all of us.
      Pope Francis can REMOVE permission for any Priests to say the EF Mass at any time in accord with “SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM” due to the discord and lack of Church unity.

      I only hope it will be clear that the heretics like Ann Malley of the SSPX group that holds no ministry within the Catholic Church, will be seen for what she is – a heretic.

      • Ann Malley says:

        Why such hostility, Nancy? Just because the TLM draws faithful is no reason for you to go off proclaiming heresy where there is none. (Perhaps you should look into the whys and wherefores about how it is that the Traditional practice of the Catholic Faith actually works in transmitting Catholic Faith.)

        We are called to be united in the Faith, Nancy. Not in just getting along via gag order that precludes speaking the truth or making valid observations – especially valid observations about our own Catholic patrimony. What you propose sounds more like a communist union of enforced lobotomy. But it surely explains your need to seek a scapegoat.

        Be well.

        • Malley, You are not Faithful.
          You told us you go to the SSPX Masses; – that have no legitimate ministry within the Church per Pope Benedict.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Kim, you may be a real poster, but you post like a parrot. One who repeats with absolutely no understanding. That’s not faith, not even ideology. Good luck to you.

          • Answer the charge Ann Malley, do not merely attack others who point out your errors.
            As long as you support membership in any Church that is not part of the ministry of the Catholic Church – you have no credibility.

            The SSPX that you fully support based upon your posts,
            has ZERO ministry within the Catholic Church.

            QUOTE: ” The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does NOT possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons.
            As long as the Society does NOT have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do NOT exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.
            There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved.
            In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has NO canonical STATUS in the Church,
            and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty –
            DO NOT LEGISTIMATELY exercise ANY ministry in the Church. ” UNQUOTE.
            Pope Benedict XVI, March 10, 2009, in his Letter to all the Bishops of the World which is on the Vatican web site.
            (See the last few sentences near the end of paragraph 3.)

          • Ann Malley says:

            PAUL, what I support is the TLM and the fullness of the Faith. That wasn’t invented by the Society. You may want to remember that if you feel inclined to knee-jerk in defense of what has proved by its fruits to be a very problematic rite. That is the NO.

            Look to the fruits, PAUL, and stop being whipped up in the brainless mob that only hears sound-bytes and that which they’ve been programmed to froth over. You sound like some random observer in Baltimore asserting cops shooting people based on your own expectation. Read, learn, discern and ask questions before hopping on the “charges” bandwagon. You sound like some black hatted Puritan.

            So when you get all worked up, consider that the observations I’ve made and what I’ve come to understand has nothing to do with any perceived “authority” of the SSPX, rather I’m looking to what the Church has always taught and what the current “fruits” would indicate. That last is what scripture advises and that’s authority enough for me.

        • Anonymous says:

          SSPX does not and can not teach the Fullness of the Faith. Period.
          No group that breaks away from the Church does.
          They ALL say they do. but if you learn the Faith you will see that they do not.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Anonymous, I know the Faith and have it which is why I avoid certain things. You can try to make this thread about the Society all you’d like, but the reality is the Church is hurting and you’re busy looking for scapegoats. That doesn’t bespeak love of God or Church, rather it speaks of continued excuses to not be honest and forthright about mistakes.

          • Linda B. says:

            Ann Malley has many posts on this web site in support of the SSPX.

            Further she says she supports the EF Mass, when in really if you read her many of her posts she merely tries to tear down the OF Mass.
            She is not a Faithful Catholic.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Linda B, why are you so frightened of an accurate look at a rite of mass that may not be what we need? The Novus Ordo was invented under the pretext of going back to our roots and giving folks “what they need”. No?

            So if comparable stats are showing increased Faith and numbers by way of the TLM, and the NO isn’t providing the expected bumper crop, why not look to the TLM as a possibility for – Getting people back to the Church – and ideally the Faith?

            You are not a faithful Catholic if you are so fixated on something that you would rather revamp until the cows come home before looking at or even entertaining the reality that the TLM worked for centuries to build the Church.

            What is your problem?

      • Abeca Christian says:

        I agree Nancy but just like the protestants they sell a good story to Catholics who do not know their faith. They spread their schism and heresy and insult the lay faithful who attend faithfully the OF and spread false notions to those who attend the EF mass. I know ive experienced it. Also my friend who attended the society, felt that she was sinning when she attended a holy OF mass. Catholic Answers and a holy priest from the OF where a blessing in her life to help correct the error she was indoctronated with. There may be liberals who attend the OF but at least no one is preaching that its a sin to attend the EF mass.

        • Ann Malley says:

          May we assume, in light of your slamming Protestants now, that your love affair with the understanding, advanced Protestants who helped your friend through her crisis of an adulterous husband is officially over, Abeca?

          Good grief, but you are one confusing individual.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Ann Malley correction: confusing to YOU. Thats something you will have to correct on your own in your faith walk. Even if it was posted to you, youll manage to still find me a confusing individual. You have your prejudices and assumed notions. Hey such is life.

          • Ann Malley says:

            “Faith walk?” Good grief, Abeca.

            The fact that you are confusing and, at times, inexplicable is not something I will have to correct. I am not your nursemaid. Your tendency to be confusing and dual tongued is something we have to tolerate and forgive, something you seem to completely miss when it comes to you intentionally misconstruing the hearts, minds, intentions, etc of anyone who asks for you to explain yourself. You cannot – and that, too, is okay. Try taking it easy on yourself.

            Be well.

  10. Judith Brown says:

    Anonymous: Pilar is not showing “disdain for women”. The sanctuary is the domain of the sacerdotal priesthood, Women are not eligible for ordination to the priesthood, yet when they “preside” at a ‘Communion Service’, they can be perceived as ‘standing in’ for the priest. This simply lends to the prevalent confusion in the RC Church between the sacerdotal priesthood and the ‘priesthood of the baptised’. The most prudent approach, therefor, is to have a lay man (not layman; i.e., any member of the laity)) perform this function (as outlined in the Code of Canon Law 230 -1) Women who are secure in their Catholic feminity don’t hanker to preside at a “Communion Service”. At the cathedral I once attended, the presiders were always nuns who were working tirelessly for the ordination of women. We were often not informed there would be no priest, so on arrival at an unannounced ‘paraliturgy’, I would stay for the Liturgy of the Word, and then leave, saying a prayer for those ‘playing priest’. This is why the TLM appeals – there is no opportunity for gender confusion.

  11. John Feeney says:

    Is this more of “The fruits of Vatican 2”?

  12. Steve Phoenix says:

    The simple answer here, what is being repeated in large areas of the once-Catholic world elsewhere, is that when the Church ceases to be the Church, when it ceases to believe it offers THE universal eternal sacrifice for the expiation of the living and the dead, re-enacting daily Christ’s sacrifice to the Father, then it ceases to have a meaning to exist, and it will shortly cease to exist.

  13. Jesusita says:

    The leftist letter writers always enjoy making personal attacks when they disagree with what someone else wrote. Usually the one being attacked is conservative or traditional. Pilar wrote something that she believed in, and was attacked because as a woman, she should not be against females running all over the sanctuary. What these light in the loafers do not realize, or fail to see is that the liberal practices of the past fifty years have practically emptied the church of male Mass attendees. As was pointed out by many people, girl servers at Mass drive away the boys, who now not only do not want to serve, but do not want to attend a sissified Mass. The boys then stop attending Mass, have no intention of even considering a religious vocation, and either become atheists or agnostics. Statistics do not lie ! Ave Maria Purissima !

  14. Steve Phoenix says:

    I always recall also that Johnny Walker Lindh, AKA “Johnny Taliban”, the home-grown terrorist who joined up with the Taliban in Afghanistan and fought US forces there, grew up in a once-Catholic family in Marin County, too.

    Knowing the effete, meaningless lifestyle there during his formative childhood days (born 1981), I am not really that surprised with the outcome of his life. He is serving a 20-year sentence in federal prison at present.

  15. Bob One says:

    In my opinion, just saying, many of the comments on this thread are the reasons that the young people are not coming to Mass on Sunday. We don’t need fights about TLM vs. NO. We don’t need to change the Liturgy. The Priest can say the liturgy word for word: say the black, do the red. If they say it with enthusiasm and holiness that is a plus. What needs to change, however, is the welcoming process. Do non-parishioners feel welcome? Do non-Catholics feel welcome? I have attended Mass all over the country, and I can count on one hand the number of times someone has said welcome to St. >>>> parish, or said thank you for worshiping with us today. How often are the readings just read in a boring fashion instead of proclaimed? How often is the music so bad that even the Cantor can’t make it sound good? How often is the homily so boring and so unrelated to the life of the people that you wonder why you came in the first place. We don’t have to change our Liturgy, but we do have to change how we approach church. Hell fire and brimstone doesn’t attract many people. Lousy music doesn’t attract many people. A Mass poorly executed doesn’t attract many people. If we don’t change, we will get the same results we are getting today. Doing more of what we are doing now will not bring about change. Change only occurs when something different occurs.

    • Anonymous says:

      It all gets back to – lousy formation at many Seminaries, which includes lack of knowing and understanding the Faith fully – as stated in the CCC.

      Many Seminaries do not use the CCC as a required text. Priests can not teach or pass on what they do not know or understand.

    • If you note BobOne the vast majority of the posters on this site who tear down the MASS are those who try to tear down the OF Mass.

      They say they are Catholic and support the EF (TLM) Mass, but spend much of their time spewing hatred of the OF Mass and trying to discourage readers from attending this Mass by their constant haranguing and evil childish words – basically saying “my Mass is better than your Mass”..

      Those who attend the OF Mass and post on this site do not tear down the EF Mass.
      So where are the public sinners in this matter ? – It is obvious those who post and attend the EF Mass.
      However, in all fairness, it would not surprise me if they attend the SSPX – which holds no ministry in the Catholic Church, and therefore they are not faithful Catholics at all.

  16. The reason so many pews are empty in Catholic churches is because too many Catholics are already too non-Catholic in their concept of worship. They do not go to Mass with the proper intentions. Nor do they go with the understanding that the Mass is The Holy Sacrifice. When they are present at Mass without proper understanding and intentions and without an awareness of what is actually occurring they become bored and may eventually fail to go at all. Therefore, it is truly necessary for Catholics to be fully knowledgeable about – and appreciate – The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

    It is when the people grow in faith that they will be spiritually alive and bring that life with them to Mass. It is when they hear the Truth as it is presented in the liturgy (both of the Word and of the Eucharist) itself and in homilies that catechize and when they harden not their hearts to that Truth that they will be spiritually alive and bring that life with them to Mass. The Mass is alive – alive with the Word, Passion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension of Our Lord and Master. Let us rejoice and be glad (with reverence)! Let us appreciate his Sacrifice and attend Mass with awe, thanksgiving and profound adoration, and give our Blessed Triune God the honor and worship that we owe Him. And let us teach our youth and help them to love Holy Mass for what it really is, “like Padre Pio did”, and never separate themselves from it. They are the future church. They will “fill those pews” if we don’t fail them.

    Let us strive toward this this most crucial point first and foremost.

    Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
    Fredi D’Alessio

    • Amen. Great post Fredi. It is the face of God people seek…we’re programmed to seek Him. Apart from Him we’re never satisfied, always seeking… and all the welcoming committees and smiling faces will not appease that hunger. If the truth is not taught, that church will not be full..if we don’t understand that truth we can’t fully participate in the Mass. While we’re receiving communion I often pray for my fellow celebrants that their hearts and minds be fully opened to the Holy Spirit and that nothing distracts or prevents them from a deep participation in the Eucharist. We’re one Body. As you say, Fredi…the Mass is alive!

    • Anonymous says:

      Boredom could be a reason. Also, stress, discouragement, loneliness, hurt, disbelief, pleasure-seeking, disagreement, frustration, disillusionment etc.
      I agree that Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament is what keeps you at Church even with all the drama that can occur.
      Your second paragraph is excellent. When you appreciate the Holy Mass, it does not matter what else goes on. Love for God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the recognition that the Catholic Mass is the supreme act of worship (one that we can never fully understand in this world) is dependent on obeying the first 3 Commandments.

    • Yes, since many Bishops and Priests do not TEACH the Faith accurately and fully, we must read the Bible and the ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition’ at HOME.

      If we do not know the Faith accurately and completely. we can not teach others.

  17. Jesusita says:

    One attends Mass to worship GOD, the Creator of all things. I do not come to Mass to be welcomed by ushers or other parish organizations. If I want the touchy feely stuff than I can either attend the coffee and donuts after Mass, or go to a Protestant church. That does not mean that I should be rudely treated when I go to Mass, but I do not attend Mass to meet people. I go there to give honor and glory to God, and to receive the sacramental graces present when Christ comes to me in the reception of Holy Communion. It is banal stuff like the kiss of peace that has made the sacrifice of the Mass into a three ringed circus. The NO is dying, while the TLM is growing. Ave Maria Purrissima !

    • Bob One says:

      Jesusita, you make some good points. But, I wonder if we are to go to Mass to pray and adore individually or are we to pray and adore as a community of worshipers? I remember when I was younger many people prayed the rosary during the Mass. I love the rosary, but aren’t the people who say it during Mass not participating in the Mass? I’m not sure, and this is a question, if we are to worship individually, except after Communion. A discussion of individual vs. community would be interesting. Maybe a Priest could comment on this.

      • Ann Malley says:

        ….”active” union at mass is a union of prayer and intention. Praying the rosary is no obstacle to understanding and uniting to the action of the mass. Often it can be an aid to focus on the spiritual realities as enforced physical interaction with one’s neighbor – hand holding, shaking, smiling at one another – interrupts that spiritual activity and redirects one’s attention on the corporeal.

      • Canisius says:

        Bob One what is your obsession with this notion of “community” the mass is not about the the community is the representation of Christ at Calvary. What is it with this spirit of Vatican 2 crowd that the mass must be about them….

      • BobOne, the Rosary was the poor mans liturgy of the hours (since many did not read at that time in the 16th century, and the meditations are a critical part of the Rosary).
        If you remember in the 1900’s the Churches did not provide Missals (daily or Sunday) and everyone could not afford to buy their own.

        However, just because someone or some group of people did not do what they were/are supposed to do – does that mean you should do it ?
        We are not lemmings.

        There is not enough time allowed for silence in the Ordinary Form of the Mass said by most Priests.
        Silence is a requirement in GIRM.
        Instead these abuses fill almost every minute of the OF Mass with noise.
        There is no need for a hymn to be sung at Holy Communion time. All should be worshipping God – including the choir.

        • Ann Malley says:

          “…We are not lemmings.”

          Thank goodness, you see that, Cindy! Your other posts were rather disconcerting.

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          The Rosary goes back at least to the end of the 12th c., St Dominic spreading it in his push-back against the Albigensians (his life, 1170-1226), and it’s use in a different but related prayer form may pre-date that.

  18. Tony de New York says:

    ‘Yes indeed the Novus Ordo will die out in a few years.’
    What bunch of NON SENSE.


    • Ann Malley says:

      …not if one lives in France.

    • St. Christopher says:

      “Tony do New York”: Your comment shows your ignorance of what is happening in the Catholic Church of today.

      The “New Church” imposed by Vatican II is largely dying. Certainly Catholic religious orders will soon vanish, except for those (with only a couple of exceptions) that adhere to Catholic Tradition (and sacraments in the “extraordinary” form).

      Marin County is the uber-ground for “Protestant Catholics”. The few people that actually go to one of the pathetic Novus Ordo masses said there, likely have little clue why they are there (and the “show” they come to see is boring, feminized, and simply theologically wrong, in many ways). Only one thing will work — return to Catholic Tradition.

      The Most Holy Rosary Chapel mentioned here is, and will remain, full. Whether you like it or not, people do not embrace the “Protestant Catholicism” that is so beloved of the current crew at the Vatican. And, the seminarians entering the Church want to learn what the Church is really about, not some institution that has mandated blinders on its glories of centuries past. No one cares, Tony, and those that do are dying; Catholic Tradition is eternal, and is growing. Take a look, and move toward the sacraments that sustained centuries of saints.

      • Bob One says:

        St. C, you may be correct that the NO is on its death bed, but I find it hard to believe. If I take my small city as an example, there are three churches. Each holds 300-700 people. Each has four or five Masses each weekend, some in more than one language and always full to standing room only.. There is no EF Mass in town. In the neighboring city of six hundred thousand people there are about ten or twelve parishes, each very large catering to thousands of people each weekend. There is, I’m told one or two priest that can say the EF. So, I would be interested in the data that you have that few people attend the regular form of the Mass each weekend.

    • Steve Phoenix says:

      Tony, as Ann Malley observes, France is an example of what is happening in many parts of the once-Catholic world. According to French Catholic statistics, 500 priests per year retire or pass away in France. There are about 13,00-14,000 preists in France at the present time: their annual total [Novus Ordo,ii.e. non-traditional] ordinations are estimated to be at most 100 or so per year. The average age of a priest in France (not traditional Church, mind you) is 75. Let me repeat that: 75. (cf. Rorate-Caeli BlogSpot for the original report with graphs in French, 12/26/2014).

      On the other hand, traditional Catholic groups, both those officially in union with, and those not officially acknowledged to be in union with, the formal Catholic Church, the SSPX, according to statistics estimated by Centurio (July 6, 2014) are ordaining a steady number of priests, ranging from 10-40 per year. Their vocations seem to be increasing. For this reason Centurio projects there will be more traditional Catholic priests than New Church priests by 2050.

      Similar trends apply in the US, Austria-Germany, Italy, and Belgium. The information is there if you wish to review it.

  19. Herman says:

    Many priests I have met and spoken to have informed me that in the early years of their priesthood, they said the Novus Ordo Mass. But then, they started to realize, slowly but surely, that something was wrong. The priests then begin to celebrate the TLM and come to the conclusion that not only the Mass was deformed, but basic Catholic life itself. The prayers have been tampered with, and much compromise was done to appease the Protestants. You do not believe me; look at the prayers for the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary. Even in Latin, in the Novus Ordo, no mention is made of the Rosary, and the prayer that we say after praying the Rosary is no where to be found (except in the LTM). I guess the journey is difficult at first, but by doing common sense research, one does begin to comprehend that since Vatican II the Church has been self destructing. On this feast of Saint Athansius, who stood up practically alone for the faith, let us pray and hope that more Catholics will return to tradition. That is the only branch of Catholicism that will survive the present mayhem and diabolical disorientation.

    • Anonymous says:
    • Michael says:

      Herman, “the Mass was deformed?”
      Who in the heck are you to call the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass “deformed” just because it’s not what you remember from Kindergarten?
      Your sacrilegious comment reminds me of a neighbor of mine who said our pastor was “not a real priest” because he had converted from Episcopalianism: as if she were the queen of who’s really Catholic and who’s not.
      In the big Catholic world, Mass is celebrated in many ways, and all of them are valid and good: if you attend Holy Mass in Vietnam it will different than the Syro-Malabar Rite in India, and different the the Maronite Catholics in Lebanon.
      Don’t imagine your little bubble of experience is the end-all and be-all of Catholic life.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Michael excellent comments. I love your backbone to correct their error. Shame on them for offending our Lord.

        • Ann Malley says:

          Abeca, shame on you! It takes backbone to review the facts straight on instead of hiding one’s head under the banner of “faithfulness” to the extent of blindly defending that which one refuses to even attempt to understand. Is that reaching out?

          Shame on you for offending Our Lord with your continued misrepresentation of others and their desire to explore the realities that the NO has left much room for abuse as stated even by Cardinal Burke! How dare you! I would think you would be the chief proponent of promoting the TLM if only because it’s form more closely and easily demonstrates the sacrificial, God centered nature of the mass.

          Your encouragement of such haters and bullies is an atrocious offense. Perhaps you should take council with those Protestant groups you recommended for the ins and outs of how to treat others – not just women. You certainly aren’t looking to the Catholic Church for guidance.

          You need to look to your tone and your sins against unity!

  20. Herman says:

    When we attend Mass, we pray together, even if it is not out loud. Sometimes we are singular or individual in our prayers. We gather as Catholics, much like Our Lady, the other Mary, and St. John were at the foot of the Cross. I am sure they did not talk to each other, but there were united in their love for Christ, and were present when He was crucified. So, they were a community, but they were also individuals. When we die, we shall at the initial or particular judgment, be tried as individuals. At the end of the world, there will be the general judgment as well, where we are tried as a community.

  21. Herman says:

    When something that is holy and sacred, and has been the cause of many saints entering Heaven, is reformed, there is something seriously wrong. I used the word DEFORMED, because not only was the TLM reformed, it was also destroyed, and the result is a Protestant type service. Even Pope Paul VI lamented this. I have no problem with the other rites in the Church. The TLM would have been lost had it not been for the SSPX and a few others. Now the TLM is growing, while the NO is shrinking. Just as New Coke was a disaster, and the Ford Edsell a mistake, so too was tamping with the Mass. The Vatican is too bull headed to realize it made an error, and so people will continue to leave the NO Mass for the TLM.

  22. The obnoxious attribute of red hot liberals is that when they disagree with someone, they get mean and nasty, and enjoy hitting below the belt. You can disagree without being ugly about it, and without calling people names. Like a bee or wasp, whenever they are excited, they get their stinger out of joint. Considering that liberals love to preach mercy and compassion, it is they more often than traditionalists, who are far from these virtues when they disagree with someone. To be a Christian means to accept positive criticism, and not use the power of the pen to tear apart and ridicule those who hold another opinion. In regards to the Mass and Vatican II, there will always be two sides, on opposite poles: those who detest the changes, and those who think they were wonderful. Because religion and faith is very personal, it is always best to be kind when disagreeing, and be more humble and Christ-like.

  23. Ivy Leegh says:

    I have just returned from my first visit to St. Vincent’s for Sunday Mass. I was VERY disappointed with the noise level in the Church before (at least 20 mins) and after Mass which exceeded anything I have probably ever heard in ANY Church anywhere. The culprits were not babies, children or teenagers, no, they were mostly elderly people chatting away and even laughing loudly as if they were at a social gathering and frankly, they should know better! It is highly disrespectful towards and disregarding of Our Blessed Lord in the tabernacle and it made it impossible to prepare oneself for Mass. “Enter the church in silence and with great respect, considering yourself unworthy to appear before the Lord’s Majesty. Amongst other pious considerations, remember that our soul is the temple of God and, as such, we must keep it pure and spotless before God and his angels.” St. Pio of Petrelcina.

    Can we stop the chatter and while we’re at it, stop the clapping after Mass as well. Apart from speaking during Mass there should be silence in Church unless one has an emergency situation. All who are assisting at Mass (that would be all of us) are using their God-given talents for the glory of God, and should not be glorified (clapped) by their fellow-men. This is NOT Catholic tradition. “Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. “Pope Benedict.

    • Complain where it can do some good.
      Write a letter to the appropriate Diocese Bishop.
      Include all violations of GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal), date, location, time, etc.

      Ask the Diocese Bishop to correct this dis-resect and abuse of the Mass.

      In the meantime, don’t be too shy to SHUSH anyone who needs it.

      • Ann Malley says:

        ….if you encourage folks not to be shy about shushing others without the backing of the pastor, Nancy, you’ll only get branded as another branch of the veil-police that folks like Abeca deride for driving people away from mass. (Actually worse. For people who offer veils are trying to help others while the primary purpose of shushing others is to help oneself.)

        There is an ongoing and grotesque malformation within the Church that is being allowed to occur, Nancy. That’s one of the reasons why the TLM, far from just its being in Latin, is well suited to form the faithful as the very execution of it gives way to reverent worship – not myriad options to be determined by the very same pastor who may think you’re an old fuddy duddy for shushing people. (But I think you know that otherwise you wouldn’t have said, “Complain “where” it can do “some” good.”

        • Last week a woman was roaming about the Church shaking hands during the ‘sign of peace’ and when she came bouncing up to me I kept my hands to my side and said she was supposed to stay in her pew. She smiled and said she didn’t care and went on to shake hands with others. I explained later after Mass that I’d seen it get really out of hand at other churches, but she didn’ t mind at all, and I’m sure she’ll continue doing it. Irrepressible, congenial types are just soooo annoying, aren’t they? haha

          • Ann Malley says:

            Often they’re not congenial, Dana, but rather disturbed and taking advantage of a captive audience. But I know what you mean. My family has been tagged by jolly ones at family funerals. The vapid “active” participation notion is such a turn off.

          • Well, Ann, I think it may have been my doctors wife, who is also a doctor. Going to Mass these days is loaded with minefields, that’s all I know.

          • Ann Malley says:

            ….awkward all the way around.

            What you describe reminds me of the following satire:


          • Anonymous says:

            That is not what is meant by active participation.

        • Ann, maybe that is true in your SSPX Masses which do not have a ministry in the Catholic Church do not allow fraternal correction, but fraternal correction is desired and appropriate elsewhere.

          In addition, it is silly of you to post such sweeping statements that – this or that is happening in all or most OF Masses, by all or most OF Priests,
          and yet you say you attend SSPX Masses.
          How do you know what happens in MOST OF Masses within your own diocese yet alone the USA or the World ?

          When you see abuses – including EF (Latin Mass abuses) report them to the appropriate Diocese Bishop.
          And don’t state that there are NEVER abuses at the EF Mass because Cardinal Arinze, Prefect emeritus of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith has said otherwise, and he knows more than you.

  24. How very sad, at one time France was called the first daughter of The Church, ever since the evil called The French Revolution and now with the ever growing number of Mohamadeans France is predicted to be a Muslim majority country in 20 years. There is no way for ethic Frenchman to reproduce fast enough to overtake the Muslims, they have anywhwere between 6 & 8 children per family as for the ethic French it stands at maybe ONE child per family unless they abort. Germany, Holland, Belgium, England, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, all have out of control Muslim immagration and all of the stated above will be close to majority Muslim in less than three decades!!!! Churches and cathedrals in Europe are now only museums or converted into mosques. Don’t blame the Mohamadeans for this disaster, they were invited by their host countries and low and behold, Sharia and headscarfs abound in Europe, while the CROSS is taken down the Crescent rises.

  25. Michael McDermott says:

    Our Parish tries to be Welcoming and Catholic – Something the big money CHINO signers of the Gaystapo ‘manifesto’ attacking the Church & Arch-Bishop say is impossible – given that Sinners seeking healing are Welcome, but their Chosen Sins are still Not.

    Parishioners are encouraged to follow the ‘3-S’ program with newcomers & guests (particularly during Holy Days / Holidays); who should get the best Space (to park), Seats in the Pews, and a SMILE from All.

    Regulars are encouraged to park further away (saving closer spots for Visitors / Handicapped) and Welcome All with a Smile; for even if you don’t know them, they Are your Brothers & Sisters.

    The Final ‘S’ is a Seat, preferably in the Pews if possible – although the Fire Code & Safe Exiting remains The Priority for the safety of all.

    “End Cappers” – who show up early to claim aisle seats are discouraged too, as this makes it difficult for elderly & disabled people to climb past them. Ushers do what they can, but leaving others standing so pew-sitters can stretch out seems to me to contradict the Spirit of coming together to Celebrate Mass.

    Just those very simple and plain ‘Three S’ steps can set a tone that elevates the Entire Service, without in any negative interference with it; and the added benefit of providing an efficiently orderly and Welcomingly Safe Space.

  26. A very tragic split has occurred in the Catholic Church. Where we were once united, we are in fact, two separate churches: liberal and traditional. Just as there is a divide in Baltimore concerning the death of the young Black man, and all the rioting that followed, as well as the indictment of the six police officers, so too is there a divide in the Church. There may be some truth on both sides, but one side is usually more correct. Just as Americans are no longer united, so the Catholic Church is no longer united in Her beliefs or practices.

    • Mortals Sins against UNITY are committed by those on the far right as well as the far left.
      And those who post one Form of the Liturgy is better than the other.

      True Catholics must all admit that both forms of the MASS are holy with Jesus present in the Eucharist.
      And this is what Christ passed down to us.

      Faithful Catholics are not far right or far left, but adhere to Sacred Scripture and the Doctrine of the Faith which is contained in the CCC.
      Faithful Catholics do not bad mouth either form of the Mass (excluding abuses against GIRM or the 1962 Missal).

      Those who sin against this Unity by derogatory posts about either Form of the Mass drive ‘searching readers’ from the Christ’s Church.
      You are evil.

      • Steve Phoenix says:

        MAC, where the New Mass is said with reverence, by a priest who intends what the Church has always intended (meaning, noting that Vatican II’s Sacro. Concilium endorsed Trent, and now GIRM explicitly does so also), and with a reverent attitude, it is valid and efficacious. It does defect (in the philosophical sense) from the form and structure of what was endorsed at Trent, most seriously in the Offertory and in the new Eucharistic Prayers. Also, there was no express authority given in SC to abrogate and/or abolish the Trad. Mass and to create a New Mass: it is just not there in the text at all.

        So, what can be done? Well, it may be able to be further corrected, first and most importantly, to be conducted “ad orientem”, as Canisius observes; the priest facing the people is nowhere in V2’s documents, another “fabrication” by Bugnini (Inter Oecumenici, 1964, not a Council decree, but a Concilium paper). 2nd, the entire Offertory would need to be restored, explicitly resolving the issue of the Mass as an offering of the expiatory sacrifice for the sins of the living and the dead. 3rd, restoration of the Roman Canon, as it is in fact the only traditional anaphora of the Latin Church. The tabernacle would now be able to be restored to its prominent centrality on the altar, correcting the presently mistaken view that “It’s just holy bread,” kept in a side alcove. These would greatly reduce the gravest defects of the New Mass.

      • Ann Malley says:

        …it is no mortal sin to admit the truth of what the fruits reveal, MAC. We are called to speak up and be honest. Faithful Catholics are not afraid and should not be afraid to honestly assess the roots, reasons, and realities of the NO as a rite. (Or even to lay blame where it is due.)

        Our Lord is present in the Blessed Sacrament and deserves the very best that we can give Him. And that includes admitting that certain experiments, although entered into with full authority, haven’t fostered solid results. Doing so will form the faithful as they should be and provide Our Lord with solid disciples. It will also set the example of humility and the reality that sins/mistakes can be corrected when admitted.

        To call that “badmouthing” is childish. The UNITY which we are to promote is the unity in Faith, not unity in ignoring reality of what is occurring. And while you may have been schooled to believe that discussing these realities drives people from the Church, presenting Christ’s Church as a blind institution that is fearful of discussing its own past in an honest and critical way, drives people away. I won’t go so far as to call you evil, but misguided, absolutely.

        We need the Truth, MAC. We need fully formed, informed Catholics who can and will want to fight to uphold the entire Deposit of the Faith.

        • Ann Malley, unfortunately you can not be believed since you advocate Services of those (SSPX) who hold no ministry with the Church.

          Your attacks on the Catholic Faith – including your attack on the Ordinary Form of the Mass – which includes the Eucharist (Body of Our Lord) – are not Catholic and not acceptable.
          Stop attacking the Mass.

          Your personal opinion means nothing until you return to the true Church.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Amen to that PAUL!

          • Ann Malley says:

            PAUL, your personal opinion means diddly when you’re inside the ‘true’ Church. That’s the point, friend.

            Steve Phoenix is “in the Church” as you term it and your crew on CCD still behave as a pack of frothing, pre-programmed witch hunters. So while you conflate a realistic review of the NO as an attack on the Body of Christ, think again. Reviewing a rite that allows and has proved prone to massive abuse is rather proof of belief in the Blessed Sacrament and love for Our Lord.

            Stop attacking logic – for Our Lord is the “Word” the “Logos”. That’s logic, friend, and truth.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Amen to what? Baseless ranting? If I went to an FSSP parish would my logical observations then be accepted?

            Good grief, Abeca, but you encourage a brand of “evangelization” that sends thinking people fleeing for plane, train, and automobile. Maybe it’s all in the tea. Whatever it is, you and those in your circle here are making it incredibly easy for those in positions of power to raze the flock at will.

          • Anonymous says:

            It is interesting that you call people who stand up for the fullness of the Catholic Faith witch hunters.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            I am always amazed at the venom that spews out against our brothers and sisters in the SSPX, and for that matter, other trad Catholic-oriented groups. The same people who would never name-call Lutherans, Episcopals, and other non-Catholic Christian Churches as “heeerretics, schismaaatics, etc” assume license to attack those who are essentially Catholic, believing what we believed, praying the way we prayed, professing what we used to profess. If the Church was right then, they are right now. If the New Church is right now, then it was wrong then. And if either of those propositions are true (or both), then there is a true break in the continuity of the Faith.

            If you talk with SSPX, CMRI, other not-officially-recognized traditional groups and their members, they are not the “wicked evildoers”, “abusers of women”, pornography-participants (yes, one of our posters averred this nonsense) and other poppycock that those who should know better spew about them. Every single one I have met is profoundly dedicated to Church, family, and society.

            So “obedience to the magisterium” is their supreme fault. Well, let’s see what tune people sing after the Synod, Part II, this coming fall.

          • Anonymous says:

            If you (rhetorical you) went to an FSSP parish and you accepted the teachings of the Catholic Church, then we could have a conversation without fear of supporting you in sin. If you were committed to the Church’s Creed (that there is one Catholic Church), the Sacraments of the Church (including the canon laws the teachings and laws that make a sacrament valid), the 10 Commandments, the morality of the Catechism and the Precepts of the Church, and the Church’s teaching on prayer, we would be having a very different conversation. It is easy to discuss things with people who know the Church’s teaching and accept it. There are many differences of opinions that can be discussed without violating the Faith. Ignorance of the Church’s teaching makes it more difficult because a different opinion may be based on ignorance. But when people just outright do not accept the Church’s teaching, the whole basis for discussion is gone. You (rhetorical you) have become your own God and there is no discussing anything with people like that. It is the same as trying to discuss sexual morality with people who have decided that the Bible and the Church are outdated. Then you are forced to appeal to the natural law and they say “what is natural?” because they do not understand that. I pray that God will send someone (Catherine said she would do it-gradually) to break through your defensiveness and help you.

          • Anonymous says:

            The Lutherans etc are not posting error on a Catholic website and lying about the Church.
            The “venom” is not to our brothers and sisters who have been misled by excommunicated priests into thinking they are attending a Catholic Church when they are not. We pity them and pray for their safe return to the fold.
            The “venom” is to protect Catholics from the deception going further and them using this website to do it. It is care of souls that prompts what you call venom.
            Do not be so callous and support the Church, not Her enemies.

          • Ann Malley says:

            “…It is interesting that you call people who stand up for the fullness of the Catholic Faith witch hunters.”

            The why is because you don’t, Anonymous. You seek to promote a party line that precludes honest appraisal and our own Catholic history, warts and all. That’s not standing up for the fullness of the Faith, but attempting to hide and/or deny problems like someone intent on using pancake makeup despite the broad daylight showing it for what it is. A facade.

            That’s why you’re so vehement in seeking out scapegoats.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Modern day Lutherans, etc., did not leave the faith that they were raised in. In essence, they are faithful Lutherans if they live and believe the faith of their parents. They are not schismatics, since they never chose to leave the Catholic Church. True they are heretics, but they are not actively rejecting something they were raised to believe.

            This is not true for the SSPX. They were raised to believe that the Bishop of Rome is the Supreme Pontiff and is to be obeyed not only in matters of infallible dogma, but also in the discipline and governance of the Church. Lutherans never believed that. SSPXers either did believe that, or still believe they are doing that (even in their diobedience).

            But I would challenge you to find venom being spewed in their direction. Pointing out the fact that SSPXers are schismatics and heretics is venom? Pointing out that they exercise no legitimate ministry is spewing venom? Asking them to justify their disobedience is spewing venom? I don’t think so. I think it is merely reminding them of the objective ecclesiastical reality which they themselves choose to perpetuate.

            The implication that SSPX does not have the problems of those who remained faithful is rather silly. There ARE examples of the much much smaller SSPX having similar problems, probably in similar proportions overall, and it is quite ironic – or not – that one of the original four Levebrite bishops had to be removed for his holocaust denialism.

          • Anonymous says:

            I think you are misrepresenting the argument. What do they call that? Straw man fallacy?

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Be amazed because its the truth, its not venom:

            Here’s thoughts from a Catholic website expressing truth:
            A “Letter to benefactors”

            In December of 2013 the superior of the SSPX seminary in the United States had this blatantly heretical statement in his “Letters to benefactors: “The Christ who incarnated Himself in Our Lady now wants to be incarnated in our lives”. It is clear in many catechisms and in the Nicene Creed that Our Lord, Jesus Christ, was “Conceived by the Holy Ghost” the third Person of the Blessed Trinity. This blatant heresy appeared to be a test against their laity to see how far they can go with their blinded sheep. As far as we know there has been no outcry against it.

            These were our primary reasons for permanently taking leave of the Society of Saint Pius X. Though there may be decent people associated with them all we can do is pray God enlighten these people so they can see and acknowledge Catholic truth and distinguish it from falsehood.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            POPE BENEDICT XVI has OFFICIALLY spoken, and in writing, and it is published on the Vatican web site – in an OFFICIAL letter to ALL BISHOPS of the Catholic Church regarding the SSPX.

            Until it officially changes from the Vatican, the following stands whether heretics like it or not.

            ” The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons.
            As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.
            There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved.
            In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church,
            and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church. ” – Pope Benedict XVI,
            March 10, 2009.

            Save this link for future quoting.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            “Sliding around the facts of schism and excommunication are typical for defenders of a group in schism. The same arguments were heard in the Schism of Utrecht, in the establishment of the Old Catholics, and during the creation of Protestant churches in the 16th century. Always a higher law is appealed to so that a specific law can be circumvented:

            According to Martin Luther, “These [church laws] hold good only so long as they are not injurious to Christianity and the laws of God. Therefore, if the Pope deserves punishment, these laws cease to bind us, since Christendom would suffer.”

            According to Marcel Lefebvre, “In the Church there is no law or jurisdiction which can impose on a Christian a diminution of his faith. All the faithful can and should resist whatever interferes with their faith…. If they are forced with an order putting their faith in danger of corruption, there is an overriding duty to disobey.”

          • Abeca Christian says:

            The Candid Admissions of Bishop Tissier de Mallerais

            by Father Francesco Ricossa

            IN AN “INTERVIEW” given by Bishop Tissier de Mallerais (one of the bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre and by Bishop de Castro Mayer) in the French magazine of the Society of Saint Pius X, Fideliter, (n. 123, pp. 25-29), candid and baffling admissions were made. Bishop de Mallerais confronts one of the first difficulties, which is that of jurisdiction. Bishop de Mallerais admits that his consecration was “accomplished against the will of the Pope” and that he has not received jurisdiction either from Archbishop Lefebvre (“he was not able to give it to us”) neither from the Pope (“the Pope refused to give it to US”). He claims to have jurisdiction from the Church. “It is the Church which gives it to US” as if there could be opposition between the Church ( which concedes the jurisdiction) and the Pope (who denies it), or as if the hierarchical Church were not, in the ultimate analysis, the Pope.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Bishop Tissier de Mallerais, in his sincere and moving affection for Archbishop Lefebvre, does not realize how erroneous his thinking is. He substitutes a bishop for the pope as a criterion of catholicity. He condemns those who are blindly submissive to the Pope, who has the charism of infallibility, and then follows a bishop in a decision contrary to the Pope, without finding any other motive for the decision than the charismatic infallibility of this bishop. In this way, Bishop Tissier de Mallerais overturns completely the divine constitution of the Church, by opposing the charism of a (presumed) sanctity to that of papal authority.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Nobody should be blindly faithful, Abeca, except to God Himself. Our Lord warns us of being blind. He gave us an intellect, remember? Or do you somehow believe that the Pope is above the CCC and adherence to the Catholic Faith? You are not promoting the Faith here, but rather blindness to the Faith in favor of treating the Popes like living Oracles.

            If mere blind following were what was asked of us, there would be no need to look to the fruits of anything. (Nor any warning of blind guides and/or the blind leading the blind.) I know that means you need to be discerning and that can prove difficult, but that is what we are called to do. Have Faith in Christ Jesus so that when folks stray – even leadership – we can get back on track. Not cover the tracks of others so that we can save face and “be right” and stay comfy in cooperating with evil.

            Thank you again for posting a reality check of how wrong you’ve been. Obedience in all but sin, Abeca. And looking the other way to excuse sins of omission and outright scandal within the Church, while covering oneself under the cloak of “obedience” and the inability to do anything, is no excuse for cooperating in sin. I am glad you are beginning to understand. We are all called to respond according to the dept of our understanding.

            Same goes for Our Lady’s desire to be a more integral force in the lives of her children. She, Abeca, is the embodiment of humility – someone we should all look to and emulate as much as possible. Remember, she didn’t flee with Peter. And neither should we.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Interesting how Catholics are taught to fear their own history. (And any instruction therein, be it from one “inside” the Church or wherever.) And how Lutherans are lauded for not being heretics because they didn’t leave the faith they were raised in…. while at the same time Catholics who want to cling to the Faith they were raised with/in are calumniated as heretics for rejecting the obvious shift in gears that now condemns that which has always been Catholic.

            Try not being afraid, Anonymous and Pope St. John Paul advises you. Be not afraid. If you have the Faith you shouldn’t be so timid in defending it.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Not true Pilar. Its the sins that have created what you suggest. MAC is right on. Thanks MAC for correcting error. Pilar speak for yourself. I disagree with your point of view. Just because sinners choose to disobey the church, it doesnt mean that there are two tragic splits as you describe here. The splits are due to sin. People spreading ideologies or theories such as yours only feed more into those assunptions. Like i said before schismatics and heretics are the biggest contributors to what you have described. Beginning with the problamatic issues of what the SSPX have created these current past years just like what Luther created with the protestant movement back in his time. Sin complicates things. Catholic is universal, both rich in tradition and evangelization.

      • Ann Malley says:

        “…People spreading ideologies or theories such as yours only feed more into those assunptions.”

        Is the German Bishop’s Conference an assumption, Abeca? Are the heretical books of Cardinal Kasper discounting the miracles of Our Lord, who has not been disciplined or condemned, assumptions, Abeca? Or are they real, Abeca? And if they are real, which they are, what is to be said or done about those who are inclined to follow such heretical doctrine under the umbrella of Mother Church? How would one define the phenomenon? How indeed when merely naming it gets one shushed or castigated as being in error.

        Accepting that these things exist in reality is not creating a problem, but rather accepting the reality of a split in the Church. And acknowledging a problem is step one to solving it.

        All Catholics should be made aware of these realities so as not to fall into the trap of blind guides while “believing” themselves to be Catholic. So step wary when attempting to chasten those like Pilar who have had the experience.

        Redirect your energies to correcting the problems, Abeca, and then those horrible haters you wish to blind and gag will up and disappear. Nobody is drawn to join an organization bent on destroying itself and/or lying about disconnects that are announced on the world stage almost on a daily basis.

        • Abeca Christian says:

          We are discussing you. Always trying to distract are you. Not going to dialogue issues with you until you get a hard look at yourself. Your salvation should be your main concern as is our own. Not going to get caught up in dialogue that gets long winded. I reject moral relativism. Pax Christi.

          • Ann Malley says:

            We are discussing your obsession with hysterical and irrational judgments, Abeca. That and your refusal to look at the realities of disparate views “within” the Church. Views which aren’t corrected, Abeca. But then you don’t want to correct what’s wrong inside the Church. You prefer to think only of yourself, your view, and your comfort zone while negating the plight of your brothers and sisters in Christ who you are willfully allowing by way of cooperation to fall into error.

            Shame on you!

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Awe thanks Ann Malley i see how important my opinion is, for you. But stick to Christ in union with Rome. You wont go wrong. Your refusal to listen here is the real shame. Thanks for the compliments. All for Jesus. My true love.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Your opinion leads people away from Catholic Faith, Abeca, and trust in Jesus. For the things that you say are not condoned by the magisterium…. or even Rome. A false zeal has overtaken you in this obsession against fellow Catholics.

            If that is complimentary to you, then perhaps you are not as faithful to the magisterium as you claim to be. Then again, your stumping for Protestant groups on a Catholic website and posting links on behalf of “your friend” is telling. Much like previous posts you’ve made about the Church’s need to learn from other religions.

            Your posts of late sound more like you’re cheating on your ‘One True Love’. Or at the very least looking at what could be considered tempting fruit. I’d say, be careful, but you won’t listen to reason as you rush headlong into tempting others with your unorthodox views.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Ann Malley you speak falsehood. How often do people speak the truth and how often people do not listen. No opinion here just what the church has given me that is conviction filled in Christ. I love Him so much that is why I am tired of your harassment and calumnity against me. How often MAC, MIKE post a rebuttal to your Opinions away from the church and you do not come to the faith. I only back up what they post from the CCC and the bible and what the saints have always taught, as best as I know how, no one said you had to be perfect or a scholar to love and defend the fullness of the faith in full communion with the Magesterium……actually some of the saints where not scholars, they were simple and faithful, they lived the faith in full communion in their own words inspired by our Lord, because of their faithfulness, love of faith….so your comments are also directed at them when you insult me because I am just being obedient to Christ and His church, as best as I know how. Not preaching to be a scholar or theologian but I seek to be faithful because I LOVE JESUS with all my heart and might, I love and seek to always trust in His word and promises to us and His church. Not on the sins of men!

          • Ann Malley says:

            Abeca, take responsibility for your own flip flopping. One minute it’s priests need to learn how to treat women from Protestants and the next you’re following the saints in your humility. Make up your mind, girl.

            But the article is about getting folks into the Church – hopefully with a mind to teaching the Faith whole and entire. That’s why the flip flopping, I’m this now I’m that mentality without any “personal” accountability isn’t working. And neither is the finger pointing at others who, despite where they attend mass, can see the frenzied dance you’re doing and just beg you to stop. One doesn’t have to be a dance master to recognize such behavior induces nausea – beginning with the dancer.

            So enough already. Stick with truth – which doesn’t shy from a critical and objective analysis of a fabricated rite. No matter how widespread. Especially when the crisis in the Church is – well – widespread.

            Love Jesus all the way Abeca. And stop trying to cover for nonsense.

            That’s why the TLM, in my view, is a good thing to look to for rebuilding the Faith, beginning with Catholics like you.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            No flip flopping, you are just a person who is good at twisting and taking out of context or even just adding your own interpretation. So not gonna fall into your mind games……thank you again.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Jesus Christ is my love and my shield. Praise Be Jesus Christ, I thank Him for everything. Praise Be His Holy Catholic church, the Rock, with Peter as our first Pope, who holds the keys to the kingdom. I place Jesus holy blood over these conversations, His most holy blood to protect us and His holy Catholic church in full communion with the Magesterium. I pray for our Pope, that God will look kindly upon his imperfections and help him lead full force, I pray for our priests and bishops and Archbishops, may our Lord will be merciful and make them men after His own heart. Jesus holy blood to protect us from spiritual war. Jesus free us from all lies, Jesus have mercy on me a sinner and I pray for my enemies, God bless them and increase their love for thee. Praise Jesus Jesus Christ! Now And forever.

            Douay-Rheims Bible Matthew 16:19
            And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Abeca, nobody is playing mind games with you when they ask why you would state your untold fidelity to the magisterium and then advertise how priests need to learn how to handle women needing spiritual guidance and support. You’re a flip flopper, taking no accountability for what you say. It’s all here on CCD, Abeca.

            So make up your mind. Then try to stick with it. That would go a long way in establishing some credibility outside of stating how faithful you are only to off on some tangent when emotion strikes.

            Much like when you equated Pope Francis with Archbishop Lefebvre. Nobody invented that, Abeca. You’re just in continual denial and seem bent on taking one and all with you at the cost of being called names.

            Be well.

        • Christine says:

          Ann Malley,
          Getting people into Church does not mean following any Bishops Conference. Where did you learn the Faith ?

          We must promote the teachings of the Church as contained in Sacred Scripture and the CCC.

          We do not get people into Church by recommending the services of a group that has no legitimate ministry within the Catholic Church,
          such as the SSPX.

          Hope this has been helpful.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Christine, you are apparently the victim of your own rush to judgement for I have never once advocated for anyone to seek out the Society. Please, stop hopping on the knee-jerk train and read what people post – that is read what posters actually say instead of the inflammatory emotional outbursts of others who operate by way of perpetual fear promulgate. You ask where I learned the Faith. Well, from the Church and from reaching what the Church taught prior to VII and what she teaches now, by way of doctrine and by way of example.

            My statements regarding the foundations of the NO were what started the cacophony of hecklers. So yes, we must promote the teachings of the Church in their entirety, which is why I find it so completely incongruous that those who “say” they care about souls would be so reticent to discuss and/or address the fruits of the TLM as compared to the open doors of the NO that has presided over this ongoing crisis.

            I hope the revelation that the Church did not begin with the Novus Ordo isn’t a shock to you. It does seem to be for a great many others.

          • Anonymous says:

            If one knows the Faith, the Catholic Faith, from before Vatican II, one would only attend the beautiful and holy Traditional Latin Mass that are offered in the Holy Catholic Church. Accept no imitation.

          • Ann Malley says:

            ….so you agree that one should only attend the TLM. Thank you for your admission.

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, you said yourself the “New Mass” is valid. Why offend God to stick a needle in someone’s eye?

      • Catherine says:

        “Like i said before schismatics and heretics are the biggest contributors to what you have described. ” = Wrong again!

        Pope St. Pius V said, “All the evils of the world are due to lukewarm Catholics.”

        Lukewarm Catholics are the real reason that the pews are empty. There are many lukewarm Catholics who no longer defend or hand down the Faith to their children. There are also lukewarm Catholics who scandalously undermine the Catholic Church by crediting Protestants for enlightening their intellects more than the Catholic Church in times of a girlfriend’s crisis.

        • Ann Malley says:

          Catherine, you are preaching to the deaf, dumb, and “willfully” blind. They’ll lament “why” and then turn on anyone who attempts to give a valid answer. (Blind leading the blind was said for a reason.)

          Thank goodness there are some faithful faithful out there. And those who manfully seek the truth and cling to it.

          God bless

          • Abeca Christian says:

            I’m dumb. But I have Jesus…I am deaf, but I have Jesus…He is my sight, my heart, my mind, my all.

            there goes not a day that I often ask, seek and knock on my Lord’s door. Often times, that is all I do, waiting for His response and He mercifully gives it to me on His own time. Nothing in life matters more than what my Lord breathes, says and shows us. But as a sinner, I don’t often see or hear but I pray to my holy guardian Angel to do his job and help me guide, rule etc. Whatever the good Lord wills. Thanks Ann Malley for the compliments. Your words helped me reflect and reminded me how insignificant I am without Him. Yes I am dumb but In Him I am not.

            Douay-Rheims Bible Matthew 7:7
            Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.

        • Anonymous says:

          They ARE lukewarm Catholics. That is why they can’t stand to stay and fight the good fight.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Providing the undeniable impetus for the allowing of diocesan Latin Mass and/or the establishment of an FSSP parish is very much being in the “good” fight, Anonymous. Don’t let the, “But “we’re” the only ones!” rhetoric go to your head.

            Summorum Pontificum didn’t happen in a vacuum. And neither did the herculean attempt to convince the Catholic world that the TLM had been abrogated… and that Catholic practices, like the Rosary, or kneeling for Communion, are just antiquated relics of the past that need to be dispensed with in the modern age.

            If you’re in a position to fight all the harder for truth where you are – GREAT! God be praised! But don’t attempt to further bruise the broken reed or quench the smoking flax just because you are bent on proving a point. You’ll only hurt yourself.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Hey Anonymous good comments to reflect on! That could be another example of understanding of another form of lukewarm. Good one to think about. Never viewed it on that angle. I was always told that they could be hot or cold for our Lord and His church…..lukewarm….well something to think about on another angle. Perhaps they are lukewarm because they keep bickering and doing nothing to help fight the good fight, even Ann Malley has admitted that she doesn’t write letters to our Bishops because she doesn’t belong in our church. So yes that could be a sign of lukewarm too? Well its food for thought as they say…….

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, it is never permissible to do an evil act believing that good will come from it.
            CCC: 311-312 God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
            For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.
            In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures..: (the example of Joseph and Jesus’ crucifixion are given.) But for all that, evil never becomes a good.

          • Ann Malley says:

            I am glad you finally understand, Anonymous, and you too, Abeca, that not fighting the good fight is a sign of lukewarmness. That is why those clerics who hide the fullness of truth and opt to compromise are not true shepherds. God be praised, you finally get it! (Hopefully this means you won’t be berating the Catholic Church to learn from Protestants just because your girlfriend gets you whipped up with emotion. No excuses, Abeca! Good job on listening!)

            Replacing the TLM was never called for – rather an updating was approved. That is why the on-the-spot banal fabrication has left such a trail of ruin. Thank goodness, Our Lord in His wisdom used the vehicles of His choosing to maintain the TLM and form priests in Catholic tradition.

            I look forward to you both taking this new wisdom that no Catholic is allowed to do bad so that good may result (dinking with the mass to make it appeal to non-Catholics) and making good with it!

            God bless you both and thank you for sharing your newfound understanding!

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Ann Malley stop with your insults by saying we finally got it. You just love to keep fighting without a cause….no wonder we can’t get along, because you keep saying things that falsly misrepresent reality and you think you are a reader of hearts….think again!

            Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 22):
            “As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered – so the Lord commands – as a heathen and a publican. It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.”[25]

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, it’s pointless to discuss anything with you. You just want to fight and you fight unfairly.
            I hope someday you can become a faithful Catholic. I will pray for that.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Look to the sins you are trying to cover up, Abeca, and then you will understand. Look to the issues you don’t want to discuss – the NO and VII – and you will understand what facilitates the crisis within the Church.

            And look to the Church’s “official” statement about the Society instead of attempting to infer that which is not true. Otherwise, you Abeca are not hearing the Church and must be considered as a heathen and publican.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            You are again ill assuming, not surprised,, no one is covering up sins….you are only distracting away from the simple fact that you got admonished for the wrong you bring here…so no covering up sins, actually exposing them.
            Again thank you for the compliments I receive them gladly in Jesus name, the one I follow, not Ann Malley opinions of me or others. I praise Jesus for your insults, I praise Him forever and ever.

            Christ Be With Me
            St. Patrick
            Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me,
            Christ in me, Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
            Christ on my right, Christ on my left,
            Christ where I lie, Christ where I sit, Christ where I arise,
            Christ in the heart of everyone who thinks of me,
            Christ in the mouth of every one who speaks to me,
            Christ in every eye that sees me,
            Christ in every ear that hears me.
            Salvation is of the Lord.
            Salvation is of the Christ.
            May your salvation, Lord, be ever with us.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Abeca, you may want to recite the Breastplate Prayer before you attempt to slander folks while excusing yourself of your own wrongdoing.

            As for insults, you are insulting yourself by not acknowledging your own issues and those inside Holy Mother Church. You are a grown woman, intelligent enough to know when you are dodging issues. Important issues, Abeca. That could be construed as a willful sin of omission. Complicity. Lying too as you attempt to portray yourself as something different than what you post, depending on your mood and/or emotional stimuli. (Like your girlfriends.)

            Engaging our intelligence instead of dodging issues would go a long way to get folks back to the Faith, not just back inside the Church. So please stop contributing to the sins of cover-up and speak openly about these issues that need addressing.

            Jesus loves you, so you need not be afraid.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            This is what the church is dealing with. Nothing new. God bless Christ’s church and its lay faithful. God help all sinners return to His church and we pray for the conversion of all sinners. Lord have mercy and heal us all.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Help sinners then, Abeca, by not treating serious issues like sacred cows to go untouched. If you truly want all sinners to come to the Church then look to the ambiguities of VII and the integrity of the rite of mass. These are critical issues. And yet for all your prayers, you reject looking at problems.

            God helps those who help themselves, Abeca. You should try it instead of fear mongering about those who want the same things you “say” you want.

  27. Michael McDermott says:

    Homilists Where the Heart Is

    Not to be a spoiler – But recognizing that admitting Existence of a problem is the first step in Correcting it, I think it appropriate to discuss the issue of Homilies and Homilists.

    As a Homily is delivered in the local vernacular, the ‘Form’ of the Mass is not at issue – Nor should the ‘Content’ itself be; unless it clearly contradicts / mocks Church Teachings – kind of like the Blasphemy of the ‘twysted systers’ of indulgence abusing Churches like Holy Redeemer to run Drag Shows grotesquely mocking Catholic Nuns and the Faith.

    However – Beyond such aberrations is the real subject of Language, and the mastery thereof needed to Deliver an Effective Homily.

    It can be particularly painful to sit attentively through a Homily delivered by a Good and Holy Priest, whose command of the English Language is such that even native users must struggle to understand.

    The problem is compounded greatly if the Parishioner has a first language different than the Priest, as often their pronunciations differ so greatly as to make much unintelligible to those it is directed at.

    Mass is not about slick media, but if one is presenting an important message then the Method needs be up to the Content, and We do not always succeed at it.

    I (and others) would gaily donate time and effort to help improve the Public Speaking Skills of Our Priests – and look for suggestions to humbly and respectfully aid in this vitally important work.

  28. Father Karl says:

    How do you get Catholics to start attending Mass? By celebrating Mass reverently, and according to the rubrics. Also by having Mass at the same time Monday thru Saturday, and having convenient times on Sunday. And yes, I did say Saturday because the vigil Mass counts only for Sunday, and not for Saturday. By stressing the graces one can receive, can also increase Mass attendance. The sacrifice of the Mass is the saint maker; it is the greatest prayer of the Catholic Church.

  29. Ask Mother Angelica…she’s probably brought more people into the Church than anyone. Even my parents watched her, as they did Blessed Archbishop Sheen for many years. Both these saintly people spoke plainly, honestly , forthrightly and unapologetically but with genuine empathy with their audience. People respond to someone who cares about them but who is also holier than them…in other words, they spoke with authority. If people ask questions about the faith, encourage them to ask God to show them the truth…not because of things you tell them, but because their hearts will be open to it on their own. It has to come from within each heart. Pray that hearts and minds will be open to the leading of the Holy Ghost .

    • Ann Malley says:

      “…Both these saintly people spoke plainly, honestly , forthrightly and unapologetically but with genuine empathy with their audience.”

      ….something we should all do. Thanks, Dana.

  30. Abeca Christian says:

    excellent article of the SSPX and much more errors that they contain.

  31. Abeca Christian says:

    SSPX priest indicted on charges of rape, torture
    Catholic World News – April 11, 2014

    A priest of the Society of St. Pius X has been indicted and jailed on charges of rape and torture, according to French media reports.

    The Society, which is not in full communion with the Holy See, was founded by the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who was excommunicated in 1988 after consecrating bishops without a papal mandate.

    Le Parisien, one of France’s leading newspapers, reported that the unnamed priest, who is 40 years old, was director of one of the Society’s schools, Notre-Dame de la Sablonnière, when he asked a teacher who said she was a sexual abuse victim to undergo an exorcism during which he reportedly mimicked the acts by which she was abused.

    After this alleged 2010 incident, he subjected two other teachers to similar actions.

    According to the newspaper, the Society convicted the priest in a canonical trial and sent him to a convent for two years.

    When taken into custody on April 7 and questioned, the priest asserted that the women had consented to his actions and that he was merely mimicking acts rather than committing them.

    • Ann Malley says:

      …thank you again, Abeca, for pointing out how issues of this kind are best handled by not sweeping them under the rug. God bless you for taking on this apostolate of advertising how such behavior is not to be tolerated.

      Your zeal to dig dirt on others is nothing but proof that what goes on in diocesan circles is not what it should be. For as you have stated before, there have always been sinners/heretics/etc. But the articles you’re posting show how those situations are supposed to be handled. Much like that Baltimore mom who took her son in hand when seeing him rioting shows how problems can be and should be addressed firmly – no matter who is watching. And is her family situation perfect? No. But that didn’t stop her from doing her DUTY at that moment.

      This mother could have easily ignored the wayward behavior of her son. He was wearing a mask after all. Nobody would know the rioter was “her” son. But “she” would….and so would the young man if he spotted his own mother letting him get away with bad behavior for the sake of human respect.

      So despite the public nature of the event and the potential embarrassment, she took action. God bless her!

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Your welcome. At least the lay faithful in full communion continue to spread the wholeness of the faith and fight the good fight. Its not how you like others to believe that we deny the issues. We dont we just dony want to appease you when your having a bitter moment and why continue feeding it. Glad you appreciate this because its fair game. At least we have this website and others to warn those of us who the church calls the church militants. Pax Christi

        • Ann Malley says:

          If you are an example of spreading the fullness of Faith, you should think again for you shy away from topics that frighten you – especially your own heterodoxy. It’s a pity too because you could be a real force for good, Abeca, instead of a force for ducking and weaving and browbeating others with your self styled fidelity. Physician heal thyself.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Stop spreading hallucinations This does not frighten me, I am just trying to not get up with your bickering and unending chaos. You sell moral relativism especially since you are not in full communion, that alone is a huge indication to stay away from you because you hold no real authority to say what is truth. You sound like the bickering people who have created their own church, pulling some truths from the faith mixed in with your own man made truths. The church of Ann Malley. No thank you, I will stick to Christ church, you stick with your church, I still with Christ’s church.

  32. Bob One says:

    If a person is a non-Christian, or belongs to a non-traditional mainline Protestant church, how would you get him/her to attend Mass on a regular basis? That is as much the question as anything. Arguments about NO and EF are irrelevant. What attracts people to your parish? Is your parish growing at a greater rate than the growth in population in your town or city, or is it losing its share of members? We can stipulate that this is not all about marketing, but isn’t it a bit about being attractive. Too often, I think, we are so into our own beliefs that we forget about those that we are trying to recruit. When someone comes to Mass in your parish do they get a Liturgy folder that lists the prayers and the hymns of the day? Do they get, in that folder, the meaning of the various parts of the Mass so that they can understand what is happening? Are they welcomed in a way that convinces them that we want them to attend our Mass and become a Catholic or return to the faith? Is the Priest, in his introduction welcoming to those in attendance? Are the ushers helpful in finding seats for people or are they on their own? Are the Lectors well trained in proclaiming the readings and the cantors well trained to deliver the Psalms in an inspiring way? Is the homily an enthusiastic explanation of the readings of the day?

    • Ann Malley says:

      Discussions of NO vs EF are not irrelevant, Bob One. For nobody is going to get a main line Protestant to attend a Catholic mass on a regular basis until that Protestant converts or at the very least has an inclination to convert to the “Catholic” Faith. And devolving Catholics into a Protestant mindset will only weaken the Catholic Church – which is what we are experiencing even now.

      Merely attending the mass is not having the Faith. And the objective is to have Faith, not just sit in a pew and be entertained. We’re not talking about market share and how to increase our Catholic footprint. At least hope not. This isn’t a Target vs. Walmart struggle.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Ann Malley your wrong. It is irrelevant. In faithful OF and EF parishes, the ones that are in full communion with Rome, are flourishing, why? Not because they are a form better than the other but because the pastor and who are running it, are faithful and working together. YOUR example is confusing to me, does not make sense. You are stereo typing, you use words like entertained? Really? yes we have parishes who seek that but in parishes where the OF and EF are holy, they are not as what you describe. You have been reading so much negative that you do not fully comprehend the reality and have not experienced the reality yourself, you are only going by what your members are taught to believe. Some like us to believe that the whole church has gone bad, but its a pity because those of us who are surrounded by faithful who are in full communion, know that is not the truth, we know that we have a spiritual battle to fight but Christ’s church is still His and the bad in it does not represent His church but only show what has always been around, that we will always have the bad willed, sinners who do not cooperate with God’s graces. I think we tried explaining this to you but you still don’t get it. Be well as you like to say.

        • Ann Malley says:

          Abeca, the “we” you are referring to are incapable of explaining adequately. Sorry. Nobody is saying the whole Church has gone bad, not me anyway. But hiding the facts about how we’ve come to this crisis and division in the Church is helping no one. And I’ve been very vocal about stating that there are solid Catholics to be found at the Novus Ordo in some places. (You conveniently keep forgetting that, for what reason I don’t know.)

          You continually ascribe my position to some phantom creation of what you perceive I have been “taught” to believe, Abeca. But this too is some creation of your own. I didn’t “learn” from the SSPX per se. And neither have those Catholics who have never attended a Society mass who have drawn similar conclusions as I have regarding the root causes of why we’re discussing how to, “Get people back in Church.”

          Trust in God, Abeca, and stop trying to make boogie men to fight out of simple Catholics with eyes, ears, and experience. The article begs the question and it’s high time the NO and VII were put on the table to be examined. Souls are at stake.

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          Well, “OF & EF parishes flourishing” cant really be completely the case, because, even adjusting for immigration, the US Catholic Church has lost 14 million Catholics since 2000 (Cath. World Report, April 2015 edition). In Kasper’s and Marx’s Germany, the Catholic population (self-reported) is down to 31% of the population, and only 12% of them go to Church regularly (down from about 22% in 1990—another fruit of Vatican II, certainly. The Cardinal Primate of The Netherlands acknowledges that now Catholics number about 16% of the population (down from 40% in 1970, and over 50% after WWII) and he expects it to fall to about 10% in 2020 (12/3/2013 Reuters report). Latin-American Catholics, esp. 1st and 2nd generation, are leaving the Church in the US in record numbers according to a 2014 Pew survey. More fruits of Vatican II.

          Kenneth C. Jones, in his now-landmark report, now a book, “Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II” (now a softcover book: you can all buy it and read it for yourself!) shows an unmistakeable and precipitious collapse in the institutional and numerical membership of the Church—-exactly and specifically since 1965. That is when the bomb went off.

          Now let the shrieking begin: I know we can blame the SSPX and trad-oriented Catholics for it all somehow. Yay!

      • Bob One says:

        Ann Malley, I think you are not looking at this in the same way that I am. Most of the people who were/are in RCIA at the three parishes that I have been a member of over the last thirty years were indeed main line Protestants, Evangelicals, or had no faith history at all. How did the join the Church? Someone asked them to come to Mass. They came back because they found some level of peace, or a program that would help their children, or the Pastor’s sermons had real meaning for them. After they had attended weekly Mass for six months or a year, they asked to join the Church and went through the year long program to discern their true longing, to make sure that it was right for them, to learn the faith and to submit their lives to Christ. Your notion that having people visit the Church, learn from it, participate in its programs makes it more Protestant is something I have not seen before. The objective is to gain faith, to know what Christ asks of us, and to commit to that truth. It takes time, and it does take a lot of sitting in the pews for a while to discern Christ’s plan for them. If we don’t invite them in, how are they to learn the faith? Read a book and let it go at that? I agree with you completely that it is not market share that we are after, but if our parish is not growing, it will shrink and that is not our mission. Our mission is to grow, to bring people into the fold, to make them Christlike. The second largest religious group in the U.S. is made up of former Catholics. What did we do to make them want to leave? What can we do to bring them back? Will they feel welcome or will we tell them we really don’t want them taking up pew space? How do you want visitors to remember your parish?

        • Ann Malley says:

          Bob One, nobody is saying we shouldn’t invite them in. Catholics have *always* done as much. This notion that that is something new is misleading as is the idea that we need to keep changing to spread the Faith.

          We need, Bob One, to hold fast and teach the Faith. For while some parishes may have lots of folks, that is no indication that those folks actually have and practice the Faith. This is why that Synod survey was so telling.

          And while community and support are very important, keeping the Faith is the primary goal. We can support each other and be a friendly community in a variety of secular activities. We can have the numbers, but numbers without Faith is nothing.

          I am glad you do not have a market share mentality, but reality sometimes indicates – even in the business world – that if quality and, in this case, the actual Faith is primary, then taking a hit in the numbers department is something that must be accepted. Trust in God. (Trust in the product’s quality.. and they will come.) Bringing in numbers is NOT the primary goal of the Church, rather saving souls. And one cannot save souls if numbers comes before Faith.

          Intimating that sticking to the fullness of Catholic practice is tantamount to saying “we don’t want visitors taking up pew space” is ludicrous and completely off topic. I have no idea why you went there.

        • Canisius says:

          Bob One I have noticed that most of your posts in this thread are based on an emotional response or feelings, neither of these last long …Faith has to go deeper than that…Preach the Hard Truths… that’s it

          • Bob One says:

            Canisius, we finally agree!!!!!! Teach the hard truths! The hard truth is that God the Father sent his only beloved Son to be among us, to teach us love, and to ensure that the scriptures were fulfilled. Christ died on the cross for the remission of our sins and rose on the third day as he said He would. Because of his death and Resurrection, if we believe in Him and follow his commandments we will be saved and be with Him for eternity. His greatest commandment was that we should love one another as He has loved us. Your darn right that I speak with feeling and emotion. What could be greater than His love for us. Gives me goosebumps.

          • Canisius says:

            Yes Bob One and that we must suffer in this life and carry our Crosses. And He that deny Christ before man, He will deny before the Father….My God is a God of Justice…Thankfully I am not wrapped up in syrupy emotions .. wanting to be welcomed everywhere I go.

      • Anonymous says:

        No it’s the difference between creamy peanut butter and crunchy. Until some clown comes along with their own definition of peanut butter and decides that crunchy cannot be peanut butter because butter does not have chunks. Then they humiliate anyone who tells them that the creator of both creamy and crunchy peanut butter says its peanut butter.

        • Ann Malley says:

          If the Faithful and most especially the children are regularly choking and dying because of the chunks, Anonymous, and/or giving up peanut butter all together because the chunks make their teeth fall out or get under their dentures to irritate – then why in the world wouldn’t those who are concerned about souls look to the brilliant idea of going back to the creamy formula?

          Your fixation on the necessary chunks – choking souls be damned – is highly questionable. What are your motives? It’s almost as if you want to thin the herd. Or perhaps you are really a clown and just think it’s really funny to see folks choking.

          • Anonymous says:

            No one is choking.

          • Anonymous says:

            It is really offensive for you to say that the Catholic Mass is choking and killing people.
            And by the way-the TLM is the chunky version.

            Any chance you could learn the Catholic teaching on the Mass?

          • Ann Malley says:

            Yes, it is offensive to speak the Truth to you, Anonymous. But again, you don’t have any desire for truth and/or looking at any/all issues when it comes to helping people return to the Faith, not just the pews.

            There’s a bid difference. That said, if the TLM is the peanut butter with chunks, could be people want something to chew on – otherwise they lose interest and go try Protestant offerings before giving up butter all together.

            But you’re to sensitive to consider that. No kidding.

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, I never mind hearing the Truth.
            I know you like to insult and criticize and make things up about people who disagree with you or who point out your errors.
            The Roman Rite has two forms. They are the same rite.
            You false claims that are not truth and which no logical person or faithful Catholic would claim are not Truth.
            Grandiosity is not healthy.

    • Anonymous says:

      “BobOne” please pay attention to what “Steve Phoenix” and “Ann Malley” say: discussions about the Novus Ordo and the Mass of All time are centrally relevant. Only those that believe fully in the orthodoxy of the present Mass, and who see the main mission of the Catholic Church is to keep the pews full, will see the way that we worship as irrelevant.

      No bishop or priest should worry about anything, except one thing: how is the Church doing regarding preaching the Gospel, and providing the sacraments, as Christ intended? The Church now, of course, pretty much ignores is true purpose and lives to entertain, to dazzle. Living a Catholic life is seen as difficult, and embarrassing — just think, your co-workers might think you a “nut” for saying out loud that you do not believe in homosexual marriage or in women having abortions — so it is avoided.

      And, the list of things you mention that should be concerns are not; only accurate and faithfilled Catholic teaching, and compliance with demanded rubrics are needed. People need to be told that they need the Church to achieve salvation, and that what they do in their private lives may well lead them to Hell. Yes, Christ talked about Hell alot, and about the absolute need to avoid sin. He forgave sinners but told them to stop sinning; he attacked religious hypocrits but told others to follow their faith (not just to do whatever felt right to them).

      • Ann Malley says:

        God bless you, Anonymous, for actually reading and comprehending. Even if folks don’t agree, this constant hijacking of narratives is exhausting.

      • St. Christopher says:

        Sorry for not noticing, but that post was from yours truly (still terrible on computers after all these years).

        • Ann Malley says:

          Thanks, St. Christopher! I’m not all that good at technology either. My cellphone is ages old. I still cannot program it, but hesitate to update for then I’d not know what little I’d learned about this one.

          God bless 🙂

      • Dottie says:

        “Steve Phoenix” and “Ann Malley” are heretics and schismatics.
        They publically and scandalously by their own posts show their disdain for the OF Mass.

        Both Forms of the Mass are Holy.
        (Abuses of either Form are not Holy.)

        • Ann Malley says:

          Well, Dottie, if speaking openly about the benefits of one rite of mass vs another rite, and making open statements as to why, makes one a heretic, then you condemn all those clerics who embrace the Novus Ordo and disallow the TLM.

          Especially since the TLM was never abrogated and is, in fact, a legitimate form of Mass. And since Summorum Pontificum has long since been out, you should decry these heretics from where you post – unless, that is, you are one of them and secretly work to dissuade accurate appraisals.

          SHAME ON YOU! Intimating that huge swaths of the Catholic hierarchy are heretics. Unless you erroneously believe that Church hierarchy is somehow immune to the sin of heresy.

          Either way, fidelity is not proved by being an unthinking DRONE. Although you seem to pride yourself on it.

  33. Steve Phoenix says:

    In the discussion on then-Card. Ratzinger’s comments about the New Mass as a fabrication, I want to re-iterate a point I notice often:

    In a May 4th “Anonymous” post above, there is an attempt to portray Ratzinger’s quote on the “banality” and “fabricated” aspects (his words) of some elements of the New Mass as though he is only speaking of “liturgical reformers who stray from the approved rites”: but that clever editorial insertion by Anonymous is not either at all what Ratzinger was citing. He was accusing the entire Consilium which created the New Mass, of a fabrication and a break with the tradition, and creating a “fabricated liturgy”—the Mass of Paul VI, our “New Mass” (orig. stated in German periodical Revue Theologisches, 1990).

    For context, see another contemporaneous quote of Ratzinger’s (ca. 1985) in his forward to Monsgr. Klaus Gamber’s book, “The Reform of the Roman Liturgy”: “What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of the Liturgy as development came fabricated liturgy.” He adds that “We replaced it …with a banal, fabricated, on-the-spot product.” It is clear here he is talking, he is using the same language, and doing so, without doubt, about the New Mass. Also, as well, he indicts the mysterious Consilium who took it upon themselves to create a new liturgy. I have a copy of the book and am looking at the forward.

    • Anonymous says:

      3. If we consider the bimillenary history of God’s Church, guided by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, we can gratefully admire the orderly development of the ritual forms in which we commemorate the event of our salvation. From the varied forms of the early centuries, still resplendent in the rites of the Ancient Churches of the East, up to the spread of the Roman rite; from the clear indications of the Council of Trent and the Missal of Saint Pius V to the liturgical renewal called for by the Second Vatican Council: in every age of the Church’s history the eucharistic celebration, as the source and summit of her life and mission, shines forth in the liturgical rite in all its richness and variety.
      Pope Benedict XVI Sacramentum Caritatis

    • Anonymous says:

      I am sorry Steve Phoenix but one of the hallmarks of Pope Benedict’s papacy was promoting the hermenuetic of continuity. He strongly and infallibly maintained that there was no break with tradition.

      • Ann Malley says:

        ….attempting to patch up what was a visible break to anyone with eyes, Anonymous. Especially him considering what he wrote previously.

        And your understanding of infallible is odd to say the least.

    • Anonymous says:

      …it must first be said that the Missal published by Paul VI and then republished in two subsequent editions by John Paul II, obviously is and continues to be the normal Form – the Forma ordinaria – of the Eucharistic Liturgy.
      Pope Benedict XVI

    • Steve Phoenix says:

      Ann Malley came under attack—again—in posts noted above for stating that [at least some aspects of] the man-created Novus Ordo liturgy of Annibale Bugnini were “banal” and “fabricated”. She was spot-on, in that these exact words were not just hers, but first used, not once, but on at least two separate occasions by then-Card. Ratzinger, first in a carefully thought-out forward to the late-1980’s landmark book of Monsgr. Klaus Gamber (“The Reform of the Roman Liturgy”) where he stated:

      “We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it—as in a manufacturing process—with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”

      He also stated this view point again in 1990 in the German periodical Revue Theologisches. It is very clear in both cases that he is not referring to “abuses” that “stray from” the New Mass, but to the inherent defects in the Bugnini-New Mass, and moreover he is indicting the very Consilium itself as false reformers. That later this liturgy was skillfully imposed upon the Church as though it was a decree of Vatican II (it was not: it was promulgated over two years later, well after the Council’s close) is another issue.

      It is also an effort to subtract from or “revise-away” Ratzinger’s carefully evaluated position. What the man stated as expert theologian and cardinal could not be somehow “cancelled” by what he as P. Benedict XVI would later formulate as pope: a pope has different expediencies.

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        If it’s such a bad mass, why did the Pope himself offer it thousands of times?

        • Anonymous says:

          And he could have suppressed it.

          • Ann Malley says:

            ….and face the rage and threats of less-than-faithful Bishops…..right. The German Bishop’s conference would have really loved that. Much like those in America who were already pushing off the abuse of communion-in-the-hand only to squeeze out an indult to suit their purposes – not the “culture” and “practices” of the American people.

            He could also have issued Summorum Pontificum in an attempt to back the truck up and ….that’s it!…. we all know how the Bishops received that wee life line. And the “truth” that the TLM was never, ever abrogated.

            Golly, you mean it was never abrogated? Really? Then how could we have been led to believe that it was? No, better not ask that question because that would mean I was bad and not faithful. The handbook says that asking pertinent question now means badmouthing. Say that slowly. Baaaaaaad Mouuuuth ing! Badmouthing! Check!

            But yeah, truth, went over grrrrreat!. All the Bishops acquiesed to the “spirit” of Summorum Pontificum. Because all of the hierarchy live to follow the teachings of the Faith in all fullness. And “true” unity. Nobody seeks to get creative and take matters into their own hands. That would be a tone of schism. Kind of like the freakish “tone” that clanged into the history books despite the majority down votes for brass instruments. But hey, we can do it all again this year, after we’ve -cram – learned – cram- been seasoned – cram – gotten creative – cram – done “theology” on our knees. Understand!!! Repeat! Understand? No? Well, you’re not faithful.

            Wake up, Anonymous. Wake up! The school bus is honking outside and your’e late.

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, I can’t help you. I am Catholic. I am not going to freak out at something a theologian writes. I am not going to freak out because you don’t understand something. You have been offered help but you just want to go all drama queen.
            You are one of about 2.8 billion people who have issues with the Catholic Church. I used to be one of them. Because of God’s grace, I no longer am. I did not ask for this grace. All I asked for was to be corrected when I was wrong.

        • Ann Malley says:

          …a pope has different expediencies.

          And so do change agents like you, YFC. You’re kidding nobody 🙂

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            You think it was more expedient for Cardinal Ratzinger and later Pope Benedict to openly criticize the new mass, yet celebrate it thousands of times and, as anonymous correctly points out, failed to suppress it?

            I think the more likely explanation is that you all have taken Ratzinger’s comments completely out of context. You can’t provide a complete quote, or a link to the original piece, even after being asked many many times.

          • Ann Malley says:

            …with huge factions of Bishops against the Novus Ordo and a track record of, for example, communion-in-the hand being foisted on the whole US by way of railroaded abuse, I think the Popes were in a tough place.

            Much like Pope Francis is now with the German Bishop’s conference flex their lucrative muscles. Much like those behind the Dutch Catechism flexed their muscles. And Popes, fearful of ‘schism compromised

            I think a more likely explanation is you, YFC, especially as you are advertised to be living in an unrepentant homosexual marriage arrangement while professing to be a practicing Catholic AND a Eucharistic Minister love the devolution of the Church from knowing the Faith to doubting it.

            That is why after being answered many times, you still pretend to not know. Or are you just hopping on the post-prior-to-reading bandwagon that is always running by way of useful drones?

      • Ann Malley says:

        Those who attack the realities of their own Catholic patrimony – including what the future Pope said about the Novus Ordo – are merely acting in fear of being put out from the temple. Thank goodness there were Jews in Our Lord’s day who followed Him fearlessly.

        The Church must imitate Her spouse. And the falling away and fear is merely repeating itself. Much like the repetition of “we are faithful” as the so called faithful reject looking to what truth actually implies – all of it. As if pretending the pharisees were really good guys and everyone could just go back to the temple for business as usual.

        Suppression of history in the secular world lends itself to repeated disaster and so too everywhere else.

        • Anonymous says:

          You think the writing of theologians is the patrimony of the Church?
          This is just so ignorant.
          Please learn Church History.
          Traditionalists believe Ratzinger was a heretic. You don’t know what you are talking about do you?

          • Ann Malley says:

            God love you, Anonymous, but you cleave to your stereotypes Good luck with that.

          • Anonymous says:

            I am not sure I understand your post, Ann Malley. To be clear, I am not saying that you believe Cardinal Ratzinger was a heretic. I do not consider you or the SSPX to be traditionalists.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Anonymous, what you consider me to be is immaterial. You seem, however, if your posts are any indicator, to operate by way of stereotypes and supposition.

            To be clear, I gather your understanding to be that “true” traditionalists consider Pope Emeritus Benedict to be “be” a heretic. That said, do YOU consider him to be a heretic, Anonymous?

            Whatever the case may be, you may want to dispense with the stereotypes and look to what folks write instead of going off on key words. That would greatly aid communication moving forward.

      • Anonymous says:

        Steve Phoenix, we can’t tell what you are saying. You seem to be trying to undermine faith.
        This too is from Cardinal Ratzinger:
        it must be admitted that the celebration of the old liturgy had strayed too far into a private individualism, and that communication between priest and people was insufficient. I have great respect for our forefathers who at Low Mass said the “Prayers during Mass” contained in their prayer books, but certainly one cannot consider that as the ideal of liturgical celebration! Perhaps these reductionist forms of celebration are the real reason that the disappearance of the old liturgical books was of no importance in many countries and caused no sorrow. One was never in contact with the liturgy itself. On the other hand, in those places where the Liturgical Movement had created a certain love for the liturgy, where the Movement had anticipated the essential ideas of the Council, such as for example, the prayerful participation of all in the liturgical action, it was those places where there was all the more distress when confronted with a liturgical reform undertaken too hastily and often limited to externals. Where the Liturgical Movement had never existed, the reform initially raised no problems. The problems only appeared in a sporadic fashion, when unchecked creativity caused the sense of the sacred mystery to disappear.”

        • Ann Malley says:

          ….and the unchecked creativity was there precisely because of the built in options to do this, that, or the other thing. So yes, the sporadic fashion of “what the heck?” began to seat itself in one area and the next and then another an still another. And the variations were so creative that it was rather off putting at times to wonder “this is the mass??!!”

          For loose language makes for loose interpretation makes for the loosening and eventual collapse of unity.

          That could be why you assert that “we” don’t understand Steve Phoenix’s clear posts. You speak a different language. And by design, Anonymous. The manufactured “push” to create what would look like a more “active” participation developed into a sort of competition….. not the prayerful union of the sacrifice of the mass. The “we” need to “make” it more active turned things precisely toward man, away from God, away from the mystery, away from the unique experience of the Sacred.

          You undermine Faith when you continually devolve into protecting a particular rite for effective analysis. As if it is the rite that is paramount and not the subsequent problems it poses to Faith and practice.

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, if you attended the Catholic Church and you were reporting on things that you knew about, the discussion would be different.
            If you attended the Catholic Church, you could analyze why you liked the form of rite that you do. Why you preferred it. But you still cannot say anything evil about it without blaspheming.
            These things are just not issues for 99.9 percent of Catholics.
            We accept both forms of the Roman Rite. Most of us attend the Ordinary Form and have no problems with it.

          • Ann Malley says:

            It’s not a matter of liking, Anonymous. As to your comment that this is a non issue for 99.9% of Catholics, perhaps that is the problem. You’re too close to the issue to see

            Articles like, “How do we get people back to Church” and pre-Synod surveys that indicate the few Catholics who do attend Church doubt huge portions of the Faith or just ignore them should make this an issue for you.

            That said, there is no blasphemy in looking to analyze the rite itself. Or are you calling those men who drafted the NO blasphemers for intimating by the very nature of their work that something was lacking in the TLM?

            The continued assertion that logical analysis and comparisons somehow equate to making evil statements is an immature leap. Strong Catholics who are concerned about how to improve the crisis in the Church should not shy away from looking at matters, especially the liturgy which is at the heart.

      • Anonymous says:

        Steve Phoenix, what difference does it make?
        We are to do the will of God, not the will of Cardinal Ratzinger.
        Not the will of Ann Malley.
        Priests are commanded to do the Mass a certain way. They can’t read a book from 30 years ago and say “this guy who one day became Pope would like me to do this instead of that.”
        Maybe you are just on the wrong website.
        Who cares about Vatican II or the consilium or collegiality or whatever?

        • Ann Malley says:

          ….people who care about the Faith and getting souls back to it not just “in the Church” care about these things, Anonymous. Why? So that we do the will of God, Anonymous, not continue down broken roads or shy away from any talk of repairing the road. That’s foolishness.

          • Anonymous says:

            I think you should pray and study to learn the Faith (not an insult). You have gotten hung up on things and how are you ever going to get help when you cut yourself off from the source of grace?
            “Blessed is he who finds no stumbling block in Me.” or “Blessed is he who shall not be scandalized in me.” Matthew 11:6
            Docility, trust in God, patience, fortitude, humility: these things are necessary. Pray the Rosary. Consecrate yourself to the Immaculate Heart and I strongly urge that you find a traditional priest who is not suspended who can help you with these things.
            God bless you. Try harder.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Anonymous, you assume that I am cut off from the source of grace, nor done what you suggest. And that I do not continue to do what you suggest. But that is not reality. And not the “official” Church position.

            Again, and no insult either, try harder to discern what is being communicated instead of what you “fear” is being communicated.

            Having said as much, you strongly urge me to find a traditional priest who has not been suspended. Well, I would urge you to seek one now who is ready to uphold marriage. If there was no real threat or crisis in Holy Mother Church, then “faithful” priests wouldn’t think it prudent to pass around a notice of such a promise. There may come a time when those you look to now are censured and/or suppressed. And unlawfully, too, despite appearances.

            Pray. Do all that you suggest. I will continue to do the same.

            God bless you, too.

          • Anonymous says:

            You haven’t been to Mass in how long?

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          Anonymous now channeling Hillary Clinton…

  34. Abeca Christian says:

    The Society of St. Pius X—SSPX

    The position of concerning the SSPX is that of the Holy Father, Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI, as expressed in the motu proprio Ecclesiae Unitatem, issued July 2, 2009:

    While church militant Voris was being kind in giving them a gentle admonishment, from experience, if people actually knew what sort of stuff the SSPX members feed each other about V2 and the OF mass, it is inexcusable, hateful, fear mongering and much is brain washing to the point that it actually causes fear when they are trying to unite in full communion with the Magesterium. We have seen here a small example of their mind set and how they bicker and tend to take out of context truths. The damage that the SSPX has created is tremendous and should not be taken lightly, followers are really fearful to lose their souls because of what they are told to believe about the New Mass and the church. I have done my research and yes I have friends who have left the SSPX and some are still in it. Even those who do not attend an SSPX but attend the EF mass in full communion have been filled with some of the ideals and believes that the SSPX has spread. There is no issue with spreading tradition rich in full communion with the church but SSPX are doing the opposite. Yes we have issues in the church, no doubt but its because of sin and division, this division produces its fruit, which stems from the old and new.

    • Ann Malley says:

      ChurchMilitant, for all the good they have done, is not allowed to use the name “Catholic”, Abeca. So your looking to Michael Voris to substantiate your deviation from the “OFFICIAL” statements of Pope Emeritus Benedict regarding the Society is nothing more than you perpetuating your personal disinformation campaign.

      There is nothing hateful and no fear mongering in looking to the whys and wherefores behind the continued endorsements of +Kasper, +Wuerl, etc. That’s common sense, Abeca. And even ChurchMilitant takes issue with these prelates still maintaining their positions. It’s scandalous, Abeca, as is your continued overreach in proclaiming your fidelity to the magisterium while perpetually overreaching it to cause unwarranted division and hate. And all because you want to cast the truth as some evil brainwash – foolishness. We are not brainwashed to think a tornado is more than a dust up – although one may say that to a child to keep them on track in getting to the shelter on time. If that’s how you need to roll in your life, fine.

      But just because you need to hide reality so as to avoid fear, others are suited and called to face these realities so as to help in doing something to combat them. That begins by recognizing the problem. But hey, even St. Paul told us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling – not close your eyes, call everything lies, and just ride the happy van.

      God bless you again in helping me prove my point, Abeca.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        No deviant tone…its all your dilution self again….and no you do not prove a point… just states what this site says because many follow it and it states facts. Does not use the name Catholic but its contents are Catholic so you prove nothing. Keep on going, you are so defensive its sad to watch.

        • Ann Malley says:

          Michael Voris cannot use the name Catholic because his Bishop in Detroit told CMTV they weren’t allowed to do so, Abeca. (They were formerly called Real Catholic TV in case you didn’t know.) So Michael is not in business with the blessings of Church authority in his diocese. (In essence Michael’s wee rebellion against his local authority is rather akin to other groups we need not mention.)

          And yes, you are deviating from the “Official” position of the Vatican when you overreach to invent schism/heresy where none exists. Take responsibility for your actions and the divisions you create. You may find it takes a real load off the need to duck and weave.

          If you would only engage with reality and facts instead of overreach and personal bias, we may be able to have a fruitful discussion. But dismissing everything you don’t know and/or are unwilling to research properly as somehow made up is rather like saying germs and bacteria don’t exist because you cannot see them.

          And that is sad. For again, you “could” be a real force for good…. and for true unity.

      • Anonymous says:

        What did Cardinal Weurl do?
        Also, it is possible if they filled out the paperwork and worked with the Diocese of Detroit that they would be permitted to use the name Catholic again.
        Super kudos to Mr. Voris who actually applied for using the name and when told to not use it, stopped. Only one I’ve ever heard of that was that obedient. Most don’t even ask for permission; they just do what they want.

        • Ann Malley says:

          ….Mr. Voris is still not allowed to use the name Catholic by order of his lawful bishop, Anonymous. But if you think asking is deserving of kudos, perhaps you should look to the Society in Buenos Aires who, by virtue of asking, was acknowledged as being part of the Catholic Church. That is “Catholic”, not schismatic, not heretical, not Protestant as many erroneously seek to assert.

          So super kudos indeed. For those in Buenos Aires acknowledging that which is Catholic and part of the Church despite the “official” pronouncement of having no “official” mission at present. And for the Society who keeps holding to the Faith and moving forward despite adversity and false, inflated accusations from misguided zealots

          • Anonymous says:

            You did not answer my question.
            What did Cardinal Weurl do?
            I guess if you live in Argentina you can say for government purposes the SSPX is registered as part of the Catholic Church.
            And uhhh…so what?

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, I would like to be respectful. Often times, when people write Learn the Faith it comes off as maybe an insult, but it is a sincere suggestion.
            As you may or may not know, the SSPX is in a kind of unique situation.
            Catholics do not consider it Catholic and traditionalists do not consider it traditional, at best it is quasi-Catholic and psuedo-traditional. If you do not understand this, if this seems wrong to you, it would indicate that you need to learn more about the Church, the Mass and the TLM.
            No one is saying that you do not have the free will to go to any Church you want to go to. No one is saying that the TLM is bad. My concern is that you cannot support your position at all. To someone who knows the Church, the situation in Argentina changes nothing. You seem to ascribe meaning to things that are utterly vain.
            Please start by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you read it and do not agree with it, you are free to reject it, but you should at least know what you are rejecting.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Anonymous(s), you speak for yourself, not the whole of the Catholic world. And you certainly do not hold to the “official” teaching of the Church with regard to the Society. If you confuse what the CCC has to say, you will not take correction from anyone, especially as you seem content to surround yourselves with only those who reaffirm you errors and/or blindness as to what Catholic means and/or what the Catholic Church teaches.

            To those who know the Faith, your dissembling is only proof of your lack of knowledge and lack of Faith. That is why you believe that what others speak of is “utterly vain.” Much like a child would dismiss a driver’s manual as being important when Mom drives them wherever they need to go.

            My concern is that you spread this mentality of ignoring the important stuff as being “faithful” while in reality doing little more than retarding the growth of Catholic faithful so as to make disinformation easier to swallow. If you are okay with that, then that is where we must part company. I cannot and will never be party to your evangelization style for we are called to be solders of Christ, not babies afraid to look at the hard stuff while convincing everyone that there is nothing we can do.

            God bless

          • Anonymous says:

            Please answer the question, Ann Malley.
            You accused someone-Cardinal Weurl-of scandal, did you not?
            What did he do?

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, you are correct that I do not speak for the whole Catholic world. Most Catholics don’t know the SSPX exists and if they do, they just dismiss them with a roll of their as “…THOSE people”.
            The official position of the Church is that the Society has no canonical status in the Church and that is ministers are all suspended and exercise no legitimate ministry in the Church.
            The rest of your post made no sense.

          • Ann Malley says:

            ….I stated, Anonymous, that one should look to the implications of endorsing +Weurl. Please stop overreaching to state that I accused him of scandal. Could be what you think of him yourself.

            Perhaps yours was just a slip to explain your true feelings on the scandal given when a Prince of the Church freely welcomes those who publicly dissent from Catholic teaching, to the extent of endorsing intrinsic evil, to Holy Communion without repentance.

            I’ll leave further inquiry into the matter to your own devices. Please, make use of your skill set to seek information instead of tagging others to do it for you. It slows the flow of conversation.

          • Anonymous, Cardinal Wuerl in public and on video stated that giving Holy Communion to civilly divorced and remarried Catholics is NOT DOCTINRAL but pastoral.

            Wuerl lied, and has caused grave Scandal.

            DOCTRINE of the FAITH:
            Requirements to Receive Holy Communion to be in the state of grace: CCC 1355, 1415, 1450.
            Requirements on the Divorced and Civilly Remarried: 1650, 1651.

          • Anonymous says:

            PAUL, thank you for the answer.
            Now Ann Malley will know too.

      • Ann Malley, Church Militant can use the name Catholic if they have each of their video’s approved by the Detroit Diocese Bishop.
        That is the deal.
        Nothing would ever get done.

        CMTV has NEVER been condemned like the ‘National Catholic REPORTER’.

        I am from Detroit and can tell you that there are many heretics under the decent Detroit Archdiocese Bishop including the retired heretic – Bishop Thomas Gumbleton. And part of this is Gumbleton’s fault. Gumbleton supports abortion, contraception and gay marriage. He is active in several heretical organizations such as New Ways Ministry.

        • Ann Malley says:

          ….and Church Militant wouldn’t get approval for any of their videos, Leah, because as you point out there are active heretics at work inside the diocese. So no, nothing would get done from ChurchMilitant because their videos would be held up and/or at the very least heavily critiqued.

          That IS the deal.

          Other groups are busy working to maintain the fullness of Catholic Tradition and not give way to the ambiguities of VII that even Bishop Athanasius Schenider have admitted are highly problematic. Cardinal Kasper has also admitted that compromise formulas are present in the documents and as we can see, he is taking full advantage in Germany. These compromises are what has led to the fruits of what ChurchMilitant reports on as the crisis in the Church.

          So it would be a simple matter of other groups disregarding these ambiguities and ignoring compromise formulas and they could get the okay from Rome. But if they did, there would be compromise on matters of Faith that shouldn’t be compromised. And especially since there are fruits abounding – and they’re not good – from these problematic areas, these groups carry on despite marginalization. But their efforts do help the FSSP in gaining access to diocese that would otherwise not welcome them.

          Thanks for the post!

  35. Steve Phoenix says:

    So, in fact, the New Mass (as then-Card.Ratzinger and Ann Malley observed” is a “fabricated liturgy”, as opposed to the Traditional Roman Mass, which every Catholic is required as an article of faith to believe was instituted by Christ Himself (Denz. Index 1727). It is not the “Extraordinary Form”—language a communist would have been proud of: it is the Traditional Roman Mass, our unbroken tradition. Know it, love it, pray it, live it.

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      The Mass was indeed instituted by Christ himself as all catholics must believe to be catholic. But we are not required to believe that the language, gestures, prayers (other than the words of institution), or even the material (unleavened bread) was instituted by Christ himself. This would be an easily disproven absurdity.

    • Anonymous says:

      Steve Phoenix, why do you make stuff up. Christ instituted the Eucharist, not the TLM. There are many rites that are older than the TLM.

      • Amen !

        • Ann Malley says:

          Amen? To what, Cindy? The attempt to quell analyzing the Novus Ordo rite to be more effective in honoring the Lord who instituted the Eucharist?

          No doubt you would have been one of those old Medievalists who were upset when the TLM was scrapped. Your ideology is showing, Cindy, not your Faith.

          Or have you forgotten that the New Mass came into being for so called pastoral reasons, to reach out and reach the people. To give them what they “need” in these modern times. Well, Cindy, what the people need in these even more “modern” times is something more than the current NO rite.

          Your closed minded fixation on a particular rite, especially when Anonymous points out the vast array, is concerning.

    • Anonymous says:

      Steve Phoenix, this article contains some of the objections of Cardinal Ratizinger to the new liturgy.

    • Steve Phoenix says:

      The reference DS 1727 is to the TLM, dating from the Trent, dating from Session XXI (1562),. There is no parallel reference to the man-made New Mass. But you didn’t know that.

      • Anonymous says:

        Denzinger 1727 states
        For although Christ the Lord at the Last Supper instituted and delivered to the apostles this venerable sacrament under the species of bread and wine (cf. Mt 26,26 f.; Mc 14,22 Lc 22,19 1Co 11,23), f., yet, that institution and tradition do not contend that all the faithful of Christ by an enactment of the Lord are bound [can. 1, 2] to receive under both species [can. 1, 2]. But neither is it rightly inferred from that sixth discourse in John that communion under both forms was commanded by the Lord [can. 3], whatever the understanding may be according to the various interpretations of the holy Fathers and Doctors. For, He who said: “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you” (Jn 6,54), also said: “If anyone eat of this bread, he shall live forever” (Jn 6,52). And He who said: “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood hath life everlasting” (Jn 6,55) also said: “The bread, which I shall give, is my flesh for the life of the world” (Jn 6,52): and finally, He who said: “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, abideth in me and I in him” (Jn 6,57), said nevertheless: “He that eateth this bread, shall live forever” (Jn 6,58).


    To all who are arguing over which Mass is correct, or better, the – Ordinary Form (aka OF), or the Extraordinary Form (aka EF, Latin Mass) you need to understand:
    The difference between Tradition that can not be changed – and – Tradition that can be changed by any Pope.

    CCC: ” 83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
    * * * * Tradition is to be DISTINGUISHED from the various theological, disciplinary, LITURGICAL or devotional TRADITIONS, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium. ”

    The Popes have changed the liturgy of the Mass in the Latin Rite (and other approved Rites) many times since the time of the Apostles.
    Popes have the authority to do this from Christ, Himself.
    The liturgy of EF Mass was last changed in 1962. The liturgy of OF Mass was last changed in 2011.
    Important **** All the necessary prayers remain the same in the two Forms of the Mass within the Latin Rite.

    Anyone who denies the authority of any Pope (Magisterium) is a heretic and/or schismatic. Not only per the CCC, but also by the Catechism of the Council of Trent of 1566 AD.

    • Ann Malley says:

      MIKE: Please take notice of your own post.

      Changes CAN be made. That said, “why” so many are opposed to making changes and/or even considering the abrogation of the NO, if it would benefit the faithful, are exercising the self-same blindness with which they charge others.

      Are you a heretic, MIKE, who believes that now that the NO exists, that it couldn’t ever be abrogated by lawful authority due to insufficiences that have shown themselves to be inherent in the rite? Why do you portray those looking to the centuries of fruits from the TLM as being somehow heretical for not embracing “lawful” change while at the very same time intimating by your rigidity that the Novus Ordo is untouchable?

      ****** Important: Souls are being lost,PETE. Catholics in the pews are often bereft of Catholic Faith. So if you are an advocate of change, and hopefully change for the “good”, MIKE, when it is done via proper channels, why are you so fixated on a rite that has proved problematic? It is as if YOU are fixed in a modernist time warp.

      Please try to open your mind to the realities of crisis and stop treating the magisterium as if it is dead. And something that is not dead, by virtue of God’s grace, always has the capacity to rethink and amend bad policy. Or even return to Catholic Traditions that WORK. It doesn’t always have to be “NEW”.

      • Ann Malley, who are these “so many” that you allude to that want to change the OF Mass?
        Correction of abuses yes, changing – not.

        No one is stopping you or Steve Phoenix from attending a LEGITIMATE (not SSPX) EF Mass. So go.
        And go to Confession – tell your Priest of your evil public ATTACKS on the OF Mass.

        If any of our Popes did not like the OF Mass or the EF Mass they had (and still have) the authority to change it.
        Do you understand this ?

        • Ann Malley says:


          Go talk to your priest about what you should do when confronted with those who want to discuss legitimate aspects of liturgy. Shutting people down from legitimate discussion by misrepresenting what they write is not okay if done on purpose. I hope YOU understand that.

          What I asked is why there are SO MANY opposed to change? That is the potential change of the Novus Ordo and or perhaps the abrogation of it, if need be, that they would decry a comparable analysis as sinful. Or even blasphemous.

          That is immature, ANNE, and not righteous. And that is no better than those whom many claim on this board are “merely” attached to the TLM. Things change and hopefully they are directed to what folks need. So your comment of changing – NO is very telling. You’re attached.

          I’m firmly attached to is what is shown to WORK. And work consistently, ANNE.

          For the love of Heaven, please finally get that message. Especially before you admonish others to go to confession and intimate that I need your permission to attend the SSPX if needs must. You are wholly out of your depth.

          • Ann Malley says:

            to ANNE cont:

            That is also why I have posted countless times that if the Novus Ordo works for you to retain and build your Faith, GREAT. But time has shown that that is not the case for a great many, ANNE. Especially those inside the Church who reject the Faith and find the new rite precisely to be what Cardinal Ratzinger observed.

            So yes, the Pope can make a change. That is why when it is clearly shown that the TLM is good for souls and families, it seems shocking that there is not more of a push to spread this wonderful and perfectly legitimate rite. AND analyse it’s potential use by the Catholic Church for the benefit of SOULS, ANNE. Try letting go of your own fixations. Change – NO? Really? That is EVIL. Shame on you.

            That said, if you believe that just leaving everything to the Pope’s discretion without speaking up is proof of Faith, then I hope you are admonishing priests who sign the commitment to defend marriage. I hope you are chastening those faithful who are writing to the Pope asking for him to defend the family come October. I hope you are doing all of this, ANNE, for changes come and not all are good despite what we are used to. I cannot believe that you don’t understand that.

          • Anonymous says:

            No one can give you permission to attend the SSPX Mass, especially in the dioceses where people have been told by the bishop not to go there.
            Pope Benedict asked Bishops to allow the TLM to parishes that had a stable group of people who wanted it. He did not tell them to push it or to promote it. Cardinal Rigali, when he was Archbishop of Philidelpia, had their seminarians trained in both forms of the Roman Rite. He is a great lover of the TLM. But there were very few requests for it.

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, Maybe if you could concretize what it is that you want to discuss, you would find answers that are more satisfactory.
            It is really hard to make out what your problem with the ordinary form is.

          • Ann Malley, there is no “need” in this Country to attend an SSPX Mass.

            What diocese do you live in where there is no Mass by a Priest with a legitimate ministry within the Catholic Church ?

    • Steve Phoenix says:

      “The ‘Extraodinary Form’ [Traditional Roman Latin Mass] was last changed in 1962”: I guess this quote of MIKE’s refers to P. John XXIII’s insertion of “St Joseph” into the Roman Canon: yes, that was a big change: just like the change in the “New Mass”.

      There are so many things factually wrong in your statement, “MIKE”, that only a few can be focused upon. First of all, P. S Pius V did not “change” the Traditional Roman Latin Mass “at” Trent, but codified the Mass that was essentially the same as the Mass in effect since P. Innocent III (see the most recent ed. of GIRM, n. 7) on this matter. The Canon by its very definition (“an unchanging rule or law”) under went virtually no change since at least P. Gregory I (d. 604), and the prayers of the Canon are cited by S. Ambrose in his magnum opus De Sacramentiis (ca. 398), such as the “Hanc Igitur”, “Communicantes”, and many others, showing in fact the fundamental structure of the Mass as AT LEAST extent since the time of Ambrose and Augustine. The Verona and Gelasian Sacramentaries (ca. 600-700 AD) show many of the prayers and offices the same as the “Mass of Trent” (a misnomer, by the way). Yes, some of the prayers were not altered for major feasts and Sundays—but many others were noticeably altered, such (just one example) as the Feast of the Holy Rosary (the commemorative feast celebrating victory over the Turks at Lepanto, 1571), deleting (as Herman above noted) the mention of the Rosary—doesn’t that strike you as a bit unusual, “MIKE”?

      • Steve Phoenix, get over it. Stop being a heretic and schismatic.
        No Faithful Catholic Priest of any Order would back you up in your statements.

        You have zero authority to denigrate either form of the OF or EF Mass.
        You are going to burn in HELL if you keep this up.

        And our Popes have every authority to change the Liturgy in either.
        This is the entire point.
        Popes have the AUTHORITY to MAKE CHANGES to the LITURGY of the MASS – OF or EF.
        End of subject.

        • Ann Malley says:

          MACK, nobody but a brick and a blow hard would call other folks heretics because they cannot or WILL NOT keep up with conversation.

          The Pope does have authority. And things do change. But not all changes are good and beneficial – even with the best of intentions. The Communion-in-the-hand abuse in the US that gave the USCCB the impetus to beg an indult after the fact didn’t go over so well in boosting Faith. Do ya get that?

          So while you go off pronouncing about how folks are going to burn in Hell, you may, while deferring to the Pope, understand that his position is that folks merely cease to exist. Hmmmm. That’s a head scratcher.

          That said, the article begs the question, “How to get people into Church.” The answers may not be something YOU like. But hey, since you’re into embracing the changes Popes can and do make, what’s your beef with talking about the benefits of the TLM as compared to the NO. We’re talking the rite here.

          And if it was okay and not a blasphemous for folks to talk about change then – for the good of the peeps, of course – why is it Ooooo Evil badmouthing to talk rationally about the NO? The answer. It isn’t evil or heretical or anything else, MACK. It’s adult Catholic conversation.

          I bet you’re one of those that doesn’t know that experimenting with the rite of mass was an abuse in Europe before VII. It was only by plannng and pushing and pushing real hard that what was constituted an abuse came to be the NO. Educate yourself, man. And if you don’t know something, ask.

          End of subject.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            The reference DS 1727 is to the TLM, dating from the Trent, dating from Session XXI (1562),. There is no parallel reference to the man-made New Mass. But you didn’t know that.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            It’s all right, Ann, I don’t post, as neither do you, the research and the carefully-martialed facts for irrational cursing types like “MAC” and their factless cohort—-as neither do you nor Catherine nor Dana nor Canisius nor many others—- but what this type of person is really afraid of is the truth itself—thus why it always devolves for the MACS and the Dotties into irrational cursing. We now know more about the true story of V2, more than we ever knew before, as more diaries and archives come to light. The quack-quack MACs are afraid of the many people who read these posts and who think and who will come to the only conclusion where the facts lead them: the aptly-named “Novus Ordo” was a clever conceit—sold to Paul VI as the “wish of the Council Fathers”; on the other hand, when the post-Vatican II Council Father’s convened on 1968-69, it was sold to them as ” the wish of the Holy Father (this was according to Louis Bouyer)”.

            Errors can be corrected in time. Nicholas V explicitly authorized slavery for the Portuguese as part of their push-back against the Mohammedans. It took many. popes to reverse that wrong road. Leo X authorized the selling of plenary indulgences, which it finally took Paul III to revoke. In time this grave error–the defection from the tradition— as well as the many other influences of Modernism will be corrected, at least for those who really want to follow the Catholic Faith.

          • Ann Malley says:

            God bless you, Steve Phoenix. And thank you for your constant fidelity to the Church and Truth!

          • Ann Malley, if you adhere to Church teaching – you will not discourage any reader from attending either Mass. Read your posts !

          • Anonymous says:

            Steve Phoenix, DS 1727 is about the Eucharistic species, not about the Mass. Are you sure you are quoting the paragraph you intend to?

          • Anonymous says:

            I am rather sick of CCD letting itself be turned into a forum for those who would deny the Mass and the Pope. Hardly seems Catholic to me.

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Amen to that MACK and Mandy.

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          Now in Mediator Dei, Pius XII pronounces that only the Holy See has the authority to change the Mass (n 49, 58): but he actually was pronouncing this in criticism of the liturgical experimentation that was going on in post WW2 Europe, even in 1947 (the year of Mediator Dei):
          ). Pius XII also corrects the false notion that priesthood and sacrifice comes from the people in the congregation (n. 40); he most of all rejects “novel liturgical practices” and “some persons who are bent on the restoration of ancient rites indiscriminately” (61). Pius XII devotes important focus to the Mass as “expiation, propitiation, and reconciliation” (73), a “daily sacrifice” not just for the living but for the dead. He calls it a “daily immolation” of Christ (79), he condemns a “priesthood of all the baptized”, “concelebration” by the congregation with the priest, and upholds private Masses (83, 95-96). Since when have you heard that of late? Most importantly of all, he states:
          “…In order to avoid giving rise to a dangerous error, we define the exact meaning of the word “offer.” The unbloody immolation at the words of consecration, when Christ is made present upon the altar in the state of a victim, is performed by the priest and by him alone, as the representative of Christ and not as the representative of the faithful. But it is because the priest places the divine victim upon the altar that he offers it to God the Father as an oblation for the glory of the Blessed Trinity and for the good of the whole Church.”

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            So, in summary, the Vicar of Christ must serve Christ and the tradition he has received: he lacks absolute authority to change the rites and specifically the Mass into some that it is essentially not, if that were to be so. But it would also be something wrong, if by misinformation, he were to introduce defects into the Mass. At least one of those defects we have confirmation occurred, which has been corrected: the Words of Institution were wrong for about 40 years (“for you and for all” vs. “for you and for many”). So, the Pope is not infallible in these areas, and yes, is subject to fraternal correction.

          • Ann Malley says:

            God bless and reward you, Steve Phoenix, for your patient schooling of the blissfully inattentive. I, for one, appreciate your lucid and highly informative posts. Thank you for posting!

            Knowing that not all Catholics are running around demanding “why” and “how” while really not wanting either answer is helpful in the extreme!

          • Anonymous says:

            Steve Phoenix, the Pope did not introduce a defect into the Mass. The Mass, in Latin always said “pro multis”. It was in translation to the vernacular that the “for all” appeared.

          • Anonymous says:

            …all the faithful of Christ must believe “that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world, and that the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of the blessed Peter, the chief of the apostles, and is the true vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church and faith, and teacher of all Christians; and that to him was handed down in blessed Peter, by our Lord Jesus Christ, full power to feed, rule, and guide the universal Church, just as is also contained in the records of the ecumenical Councils and in the sacred canons.

            … the faithful of whatever rite and dignity, both as separate individuals and all together, are bound by a duty of hierarchical submission and true obedience, not only in things pertaining to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world, so that the Church of Christ, protected not only by the Roman Pontiff, but by the unity of communion as well as of the profession of the same faith is one flock under the one highest shepherd. This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation…” [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Vatican Council I, 1870]

      • Dottie says:

        Steve Phoenix, MIKE must have really got you where it hurts – the truth that any Pope has the authority to change either form of the Mass.
        And that your false statements that the TLM is the Mass of all times is bunk.

        And that the EF and OF Masses of today have both been changed many times since the time of the Apostles. 🙂

        And glad you agree that all the necessary prayers are the same in both Forms of the Mass, and all you could do was to point to a difference in a few feast days. 🙂

  37. Steve Phoenix says:

    Here is the unmistakable series of facts (except for the quack-quacks):

    “OF & EF parishes flourishing” cant really be the case, because, even adjusting for immigration, the US Catholic Church has lost 14 million Catholics since 2000 (Cath. World Report, April 2015 edition). In Kasper’s and Marx’s Germany, the Catholic population (self-reported) is down to 31% of the population, and only 12% of them go to Church regularly (down from about 22% in 1990—another fruit of Vatican II, certainly. The Cardinal Primate of The Netherlands acknowledges that now Catholics number about 16% of the population (down from 40% in 1970, and over 50% after WWII) and he expects it to fall to about 10% in 2020 (12/3/2013 Reuters report). Latin-American Catholics, esp. 1st and 2nd generation, are leaving the Church in the US in record numbers according to a 2014 Pew survey. More fruits of Vatican II.

    Kenneth C. Jones, in his now-landmark report, now a book, “Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II” (now a softcover book: you can all buy it and read it for yourself!) shows an unmistakable and precipitous collapse in the institutional and numerical membership of the Church—-exactly and specifically since 1965. That is when the bomb went off.

    So, where do we go from here, Holy Father? What haven’t we put into effect in the last 50 years that we need to double-down again on? Is the goal 8% Mass attendance? 5%? Zero? The same precipitous drop occurred under your “reign” in Argentina (a 10% decline from 1995-2013). So, more of the same?

    • Linda B. says:

      It is to teach the Faith for a change through the reading of the Bible and the CCC.
      Catechesis stinks.

    • STEVE PHOENIX, do you believe that any POPE had and still has the authority to change the “Liturgy” of the Mass ?

      Do you disagree with this Doctrine of the Faith ?
      CCC: 83 …….. Tradition (from the Apostles) is to be DISTINGUISHED from the various theological, disciplinary, LITURGICAL or devotional TRADITIONS, born in the local churches over time.
      These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed.
      In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium. ”

      The Popes have changed the liturgy of the Mass in the Latin Rite (and other approved Rites) many times since the time of the Apostles.
      Popes have the authority to do this from Christ, Himself.

      • Ann Malley says:

        Good grief, ANNE. In your previous post to me you stated, “Change – NO!” regarding how most folks “feel” about the Novus Ordo. (No doubt how many faithful, active Catholics felt back in the day. Catholics whose families were doing just fine, too.)

        Don’t you realize that you’re displaying an attachment to the rite itself and not the defense of Papal authority that you toss at Steve Phoenix.

        You state, “…These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.”

        The burning question of the hour, ANNE, especially in light of the tremendous spread and growth of TLM practices in today’s “modern” world (not just a fad) is why these times of CRISIS are not being met with what is currently being shown to form solid Catholics, strong families, and produce a bounty of vocations.

        I suppose because the CCC doesn’t strictly state REVIVED that there is this delusion that Catholic practices that have always worked must be shut away from accurate analysis or regular usage outside an “it’s-just-a-preference” venue. I suppose this is why Star of the Sea is meeting with the seething ire of those who say – Change – NO!

        • Ann Malley says:

          to ANNE cont:

          Well, ANNE, change can work in many ways. And sometimes for the good despite how we feel personally.

          Perhaps if those from the TLM were treated more kindly they’d speak up more and show their numbers and their fruit. But the haters won’t have any of that, no talk of what works, no analysis of all options during this time of crisis. Discussion will be branded badmouthig. Analysis will be decried as EVIL. Change – NO!

          That says a lot, ANNE. And it’s neither holy nor attractive.

          • Ann Malley, don’t you understand ?
            People like you and Steve who bad mouth the Mass – OF, intended or not seem hateful.
            This drives people away from whatever you are promoting.
            Other people are NOT posting against the EF Mass, they are posting against you and Steve P for your bad behavior.

            In addition your response to me had nothing to do with my post(s)
            I will repeat it for you.

            ” STEVE PHOENIX, (adding Ann Malley) do you believe that any POPE had and still has the authority to change the “Liturgy” of the Mass ?

            Do you disagree with this Doctrine of the Faith ?
            CCC: 83 …….. Tradition (from the Apostles) is to be DISTINGUISHED from the various theological, disciplinary, LITURGICAL or devotional TRADITIONS, born in the local churches over time.
            These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed.
            In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium. ”

            The Popes have changed the liturgy of the Mass in the Latin Rite (and other approved Rites) many times since the time of the Apostles.
            Popes have the authority to do this from Christ, Himself.

          • Christine says:

            Malley, you said: “Perhaps if those from the TLM were treated more kindly they’d speak up more and show their numbers and their fruit. But the haters won’t have any of that.”

            If the shoe fits, wear it.

            Look at EACH of the posts on this thread. You, Steve Phoenix and one or two others are the haters.
            No one but YOU guys are bad mouthing either form of the Mass.

            I dare you to read all the posts on this thread. If you do, you will prove to yourself only the few of you are being hateful to either Form of the Mass.
            And people are rejecting you, not the EF (aka TLM, Latin Mass). It is arrogant of you to assume falsely that people are rejecting or bad mouthing the EF Mass. They are bad mouthing you for your bad actions.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            ANNE and Christine God bless you. I completely agree. Its about time others stood their ground and corrected them. We are tired of what they bring here.

          • Ann Malley says:

            ANNE: I responded to what you posted and exactly what you asked of me.

            And what I responded with was the reality that I understand CCC83.
            But what I challenged you with was your assertion of “NO” to any proposed change of the Novus Ordo. In light of CCC83, it seems odd that you would be so defensive of a particular rite. Especially if another rite, in this case the TLM, was proved more beneficial in forming solid Catholics. (The rush to be offended at the thought of change or going back to the TLM, in other words, seems rather odd since you want others to accept the possibility and righteousness of change. Change that the lawful authority can make. Do you realize how that sounds? I don’t think you do.)

            And now we have Christine sayiing, “Malley” like this is some punk fight. If there wasn’t a crisis in the Church, the exchange would be comical for the uppity assertions of “badmouthing” “heretic” and now “arrogant”.

            What about accuracy? History? Analysis? Discussion? Looking at all options? And not shying away from answers when one asks a question,

            I suppose going to the TLM or seeking Catholic tradition in its fullness is okay as long as one keeps it to themselves or hides the reasons why they do – dismissing it as mere preference. Don’t talk about the real reasons or you’ll be excoriated….. and by many who are openly asking what can we do the help with the ongoing crisis.

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, you once again spew out things that have no basis in reality. We aren’t going back to the TLM, it isn’t a proposal on the table. If we were, nobody here would deny that the Pope has the authority to make that happen, or “any proposed changes” to the OF, yet you are accusing people of being opposed to that. Who ever said such a thing? You just make it up as you go along. In fact, the OF has is on its third edition.

            You talk as though the OF could be proven to be more beneficial to forming solid catholics. You can’t prove that. Nobody can. And if you are holding yourself up as a “solid catholic”, well, we’ll have to wait a very long time for said proof.

          • Anonymous says:

            You cannot promote the TLM by denigrating the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. They are the same rite.
            You cannot promote the TLM by denigrating Vatican II. The same Church that instituted the TLM promulgated the Vatican II documents.
            You cannot promote the TLM (i’m sorry this is personal) by being so ill-mannered and hateful to people.
            If you want to encourage people to try the TLM, talk about why you like it. Instead of why you don’t like the regular Mass.

          • Thanks for the beautiful poem, Elizabeth! Wordsworth is a perfect choice…I think he and his wife had at least 8 children and his sister Dorothy lived with them, as well, along with a poor much addicted poet, whose name I can’t think of right now, but he was an opium eater and his poems were really strange. Can you remember? Anyway, I spent the day with family and it was wonderful. I hope you and everyone else had a very special day. I was thinking on my way home of what I’d written about women as heads of gov’t etc. and was thinking if only women would pattern themselves after Our Lady. I think we’re happiest when we’re serving others. It’s ironic that the most Mary-like women are the Amish. Their expressions are so contented and serene. I love to vist my Amish neighbors…their families and neighborliness is a witness to their faith.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            Anne gets confused again: To her, the papal authority has absolute authority to change the Mass and the other rites of the Church. No, the papal authority lacks the power to change a rite from what it essentially is into something it cannot be.

            So one of the straw-men arguments that is proposed is that the papal authority “changed vestments and rubrics”. This is not the essential content of the rite: But the Canon (“The Unchanging Rule”) of the Mass certainly is part of that essential content. A pope is not protected necessarily infallibly from erring, especially when he is given false information, as Paul VI was certainly given by Abp. A. Bugnini and the Consilium that, for example, Euch. Prayer II was “The Anaphora of St. Hippolytus.” 47 years later the conclusion of true liturgical experts such as Monsgr. Klaus Gamber is that this is a complete fable: there were no other anaphoras in the Western Church other than the Roman Canon. According to “The Priest and the Canon of the Mass” (see Vatican.VA), this only known Canon goes back at least to P. Vigilius (537-555), who speaks of the “prex canonica”. Prior to this, according to the true expert, Card. Alfons Stickler, the Canon was memorized and never printed to prevent its desecration by pagans (the “Disciplina Arcania”, or “Tenet of Silence”). This is likely why in Justin Martyr’s Apologia (d. 160) that he did not cite the ancient words of the Canon.

            We do know that prayers of the Canon are found in S. Ambrose De Sacramentiis (“Hanc Igitur”, “Memento”, and others) showing the integral whole of the Canon from post-Apostolic times until—get, until 1969! Why was it virtually thrown away, hmm?

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            So, to Anne (not Anne Malley, of course):
            According to “The Priest and the Canon of the Mass” (see Vatican.VA), this only known Canon goes back at least to P. Vigilius (537-555), who speaks of the “prex canonica”. Prior to this, according to the true expert, Card. Alfons Stickler, the Canon was memorized and never printed to prevent its desecration by pagans (the “Disciplina Arcania”, or “Tenet of Silence”). This is likely why in Justin Martyr’s Apologia (d. 160) that he did not cite the ancient words of the Canon.

            We do know that prayers of the Canon are found in S. Ambrose De Sacramentiis (“Hanc Igitur”, “Memento”, and others) showing the integral whole of the Canon from post-Apostolic times until—get, until 1969! Why was it virtually thrown away, hmm?

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            A hint as to why the New Mass was foisted on Paul VI as essential for the “will of the Council Fathers” (rhetorical quote) is contained in Abp. Annibale Bugnini’s famous interview in L’Osservatore Romano (Mar 1965):

            “We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Protestants. ”

            Now, no doubt, the Annes and the Anonymous clan will state (correctly) that under canon law and also in documents such as Mediator Dei, the liturgy and the rites are reserved to the Holy See. No one is doubting that (except, perhaps they are now): But the Pope is Vicar of Christ and must safeguard sacred tradition. Were he to substitute hot dogs and coca cola and a Country Western celebration for the Mass (something somewhat similar to this happened not long ago at a “Country Western Style Mass” in a German diocese near Vienna: you can check it out on Youtube.), he would lack authority or force of law to do so.

            However, in some elements of the New Mass, as well as the purged portions of the Traditional Roman Mass (ex. “Suscipe Sancte Pater” prayer, which specifically pronounces that this is an offering of expiation for the living and the dead), there is a profound change from unbloody sacrifice of atonement by Christ to—well, perhaps a party atmosphere.

        • Happy Mother’s Day, Ann Malley. A good day to thank our moms…either by visiting their graves tomorrow or if you’re so blessed, to give her a big hug and flowers. How I miss my mom. She was my best friend and greatest defender. We’re so blessed to have the Virgin Mary as our Mother and it’s a privilege to honor her especially. God bless…and a word to the wise, I wouldn’t waste any more time in useless debates. When they start throwing the favorite secular taunts like ‘haters’ et al, it’s past time to leave. Everyone is a ‘hater’, bigot, racist or homophobe these days…or some kind of phobe. This must be the result of a tardy adulthood and a lack of reading. wink wink

          • Ann Malley says:

            God bless and Happy Mother’s Day to you, too. And thank you for raising a MAN! Would that we had more of those. My son took to being point man long ago, too. (He intends to test a vocation and if that is not to be, he’ll go on to BUDS. Go Navy is in the blood.)

            He also loves to READ. All the kids learned between 3-5 . I suppose that’s why I’m so easily spurred by perceived lack of comprehension. But it would seem “I” am not comprehending the pack mentality that would lead to purposefully not reading content just for the chance to join a group who feels at perfect liberty to cyber-shout “we” don’t need you here or want you and are rejecting you. And all that when the conversation is supposed to be how to get folks into Church. Sad.

            But hey, Dottie shot out with the pronouncement of heresy and then reiterated the burn of dropping the “no duh” that Popes can change things only to come back a third time with a legitimate question. I was floored. It was, however, progress. I hope nobody heckles her.

            I do love it when genuine communication is possible. Thanks, and HAPPY MOTHER’S DAY!

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Dana something is spiritually blinding you that you are not seeing things in the right light. It is they who hate Christ’s church. Schism and heresy blinds people spiritually. I pray that someday you will see the truth. May our blessed Mother be honored and loved.

          • Catherine says:

            “We’re so blessed to have the Virgin Mary as our Mother and it’s a privilege to honor her especially.”

            That is so true Dana!

            Happy Mother’s Day to you Dana and also to you Ann Malley and to all of our mothers. It surely sounds like you were also blessed with a wonderful mom Dana. : )

            The Virgin

            Mother! whose virgin bosom was uncrost
            With the least shade of thought to sin allied.
            Woman! above all women glorified,
            Our tainted nature’s solitary boast;
            Purer than foam on central ocean tost;
            Brighter than eastern skies at daybreak strewn
            With fancied roses, than the unblemished moon
            Before her wane begins on heaven’s blue coast;
            Thy image falls to earth. Yet some, I ween,
            Not unforgiven the suppliant knee might bend,
            As to a visible Power, in which did blend
            All that was mixed and reconciled in thee
            Of mother’s love with maiden purity,
            Of high with low, celestial with terrene!

        • I meant Catherine. haha A freudian slip as a lady at Church called me Elizabeth and I was thinking of that, as well. My mind drifts. (Or I’m slippin’)

  38. Kristin Edwards says:

    Ann Malley, you make lots of statements, but when asked a direct question you never provide any official documentation (with links) for proof of what you post.
    You attack people rather than merely stating facts.

    I have met Cardinal Burke, and Bishop Athanasius Schneider. I can assure you that they would be ashamed of your “attacks” on the OF Mass.

    And for Steve Phoenix to imply that any Pope does not have the authority to change the Liturgy is heresy.

    • Ann Malley says:

      Kristen – you may have met Cardinal Burke and Bishop Schneider, but you can assure no one of anything. The reason is because you perceive discussion as attack. But wounds often must be probed. Doing as much to analyze what may be wrong inside is not an attack.

      That said, you may want to do your own research. Posting links only devolves into further name calling and obtuse cries of heresy and attack. If you’ve read even half of what I’ve written previously, you’d know that. And I think you and the majority of others seething on CCD do as well.

      I understand quite clearly that the wound is painful. To be healed, however, often the pain of looking deeper needs to occur. Calumniating Steve Phoenix by attempting to misconstrue his perfectly true statements won’t make problems disappear either…. or manufacture solutions.

      If you cannot look to the proof of problems as evidenced by the crisis in the Church then, obviously, you cannot see. So perhaps yours is just to pray. Not badmouth people because you want to protect delicate sensibilities.

      God bless.

      • Anonymous says:

        Ann Malley, when you call people names you are not discussing, you are attacking.
        When you and not back up your statements with sources or links to official Church documents, they are merely your own opinion and not worthy of discussion in the public media.

      • Anonymous says:

        Such a laugh, when Ann Malley says “That said, you may want to do your own research. Posting links only devolves into further name calling and obtuse cries of heresy and attack. If you’ve read even half of what I’ve written previously, you’d know that.”, you know what she means is that she has never posted real research. There has been no name calling here, except FROM Ann Malley and her cohort. She doesn’t provide any research becasue she HAS NO RESEARCH.

    • Please read this, Kristen……and then please turn your vitriol on more pertinent subjects such as: Christians being tortured and beheaded throughout the Middle East; Christians under attack all over the globe, merely for being Christians; our nation divided and constantly being undermined by enemies from within ad infinitum, ad nauseum. You and your cohorts direct attention from important concerns to this constant attack on fellow Catholics. What is your purpose in this constant harrassment? The only thing it accomplishes is redirecting conversation better spent on crucial subjects. Maybe you and so-called Abeca Christian, who like all the anonymous’s doesn’t reveal her real name should start your own website and stop ruining this one. I know I’m not alone when I say I’m sick unto death of all your really obnoxious and unChristian attitudes. Rather than another website, perhaps you should just start by praying…truly praying. Your lack of charity and respect reveals a real lack of it in your lives. Mary, pray for them. St. John Vianney, please pray for them.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Dana your a hypocrate. Accusing her of lack of charity when your clan does nothing but misbehave. Take the rod out of your own eye before you remove the splinter out of the eye of another.

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          Need to learn how to spell “hypocrite” by the way. Again.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Steve if thats all your worried about my friend, spelling, then that’s fine. English is my second language and even with the misspelling the message is still loud and clear. Moses may have been a studderer, but he still carried out what God asked of him when freeing his people. Remember Ann called us dumb and deaf. But I still have Jesus. But even then i thank you for helping me out and letting me know. Pax Christi

      • Catherine says:

        To the biters and devourers: = “Your lack of charity and respect reveals a real lack of it in your lives.”

        Dana, Excellent diagnosis! A lack of charity and respect. Thank you for summing it up! Your wise and kind mother also raised a very wise and kind daughter! Thank you for the link. ……

        “Pope Benedict asked for charity towards the SSPX, whose priests, he surmises, must “have a love for Christ and a desire to proclaim him and, with him, the living God.” He spoke against “biting and devouring” one another. He clearly saw this as a complex situation, not a black and white one. He did not condemn them. He did not compare their Masses to blasphemy. He did not tell the world of their sinfulness.

        He showed sympathy to them. He showed a desire to unite them fully within the bosom of the Church. He expressed towards them a paternal sentiment that can only be described as love.”

        “I encourage you not to listen to those who opportunistically use this situation to create division, or cast judgment. This is not an “us” or “them” situation. The members of the Society are, in a very real sense of the word, Catholic. We are Catholic. The differences between us are not insignificant, but neither are they insurmountable.

        • Anonymous says:

          But a lot has happened since 2009 when Pope Emeritus Benedict wrote that including the SSPX rejecting the Vatican’s offer to rejoin for two reasons (according to Bishop Fellay): they would not sign a preamble which held them to the doctrine of the Catholic Church because they do not accept it and they do not want to obey the Pope.
          Now they should be treated with charity and respect. And I think they are. But it is our duty when they say things about the Catholic Church that is not true or that is distorted that we stand up for truth. Also, the SSPX never had any problem on this website until one particularly obnoxious poster started being a ***** to faithful Catholics here.

          • Ann Malley says:

            You are correct, Anonymous. Much has changed since 2009. Many more Catholics are waking up to the reality that the TLM is fruitful. The Novus Ordo has proved demonstrably problematic, too, even if only in its consistency in application.

            Concerned Catholics are also coming to understand that VII documents have inherent weaknesses that are being exploited:


            I realize this bothers you, but there is no cause to invent a blacksheep scenario, although I do make it easier for you as I don’t post anonymously like you.

            Try to come out of the morass of calling people *********** when you are just not interested enough to face the problems concerned Catholics must address. Ideally sooner, rather than later. You may not endure any issues of conscience regarding the disconnects presented in the link, but those who know of these issues, do. In fact, they must. So a wholesale – okay, whatever – presents and impossibility.

            God bless you for your kindness. I’ve no doubt you will be duly rewarded in time.

          • Catherine says:

            “Also, the SSPX never had any problem on this website until one particularly obnoxious poster started being a ***** to faithful Catholics here

            anonymous, I have also been extremely disappointed in the very uncharitable and obnoxious manner that Abeca acted but I forgive her and so should you. History does repeat itself and we do need one another to build up the Body of Christ!

            A LOT has happened since Jesus walked on this earth and left us with this instruction…. “Love one another as I have loved you.”

          • Anonymous says:

            So do you think Jesus” commandment is out of date?

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, it is a lot more honest to post anonymously than to post under a first name and a last name that is not your own.
            There is nothing immoral about it, though.

          • Anonymous says:

            Apologies to Abeca. You got some nasty enemies here.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Yes anonymous they are definitely nasty enemies but mostly they are enemies of Christ and His church. Holier than thou….now I know what is meant by that and they fit the description so well. God have mercy. But be grateful for their insults because it doesnt matter what they think of you, its what Christ thinks that matters only. Jesus Christ is my Lord and savior. I love Him only. God bless this anonymous. Dont let them get to you nor their false charity, I dont.

          • Ann Malley says:

            God bless you, Catherine.

            I forgive Abeca, too. Fear is a harsh master.

        • Thank you Catherine. That is a true Christian response and reflects a good understanding of what Christ commands all of us to do…love one another. (which doesn’t preclude speaking our minds once in a while) I remember when Abeca shared about her family and took pleasure in our conversations here. I can’t help but observe that this is an incredibly divisive papacy with words spewing forth like bullets from a gatling gun. Yikes. Duck! Head for cover. Everyone and every subject gets an opinion…sometimes completely contradictory, but always emphatic. Maybe it’s exclamation points that are hitting us like darts!! owch!

          • Anonymous says:

            Dana, why did you turn on your friend? I am really curious. I know why Catherine did. But why you?
            Why blame the papacy?

          • I’m sorry anony. but some things are too deep for words. There are limitations to what we can write in a small comment box. Whenever I read your posts, however, I will say your authentic voice comes through! Very interesting, really. Thank you for your concern and I mean that sincerely.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Anonymous, this article may aid you in understanding something of the confusion:


          • Abeca Christian says:

            Ann Malley then stop the fear mongering, you are a contributing to fear. You mislead many people and you will have to answer to God for that. Linda Maria lives in fear and you and your others have helped her with that. Get some therapy and stop using this website for that.

          • Bob One says:

            Dana, can you name one incident when our current Pope, Francis, has said anything contrary to established Church dogma, belief or tradition? Too many people, in my opinion, think that he is confusing, yet I have not heard him utter anything but established and settled traditional faith. Perhaps you read magazines and blogs that I don’t see, so I will be looking forward to your comments and references.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Abeca, please don’t address me unless you have something coherent to say. Begin by tracking what you post and being accountable for it. Then perhaps I will look to you for adult conversation.

            If reality frightens you, close your eyes, but hold the hand of a trustworthy guide. But it is rather more frightening to have someone who claims to be an adult Catholic closing her eyes as a rule. The blind leading the blind toward the pit was said for good reason. Yes, we know the pit is scary, but closing one’s eyes to its existence leads to falling in.

            God bless

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Lol. Ann Malley this is a forum I can Address you and you can ignore it. Geeze your threats hold no strength. You preach accountability? You cant be serious? Accountability begins with you, the preacher, practice what you preach. You started this. Whats the matter too much for you to chew?

  39. This post is accurate and stands.
    This is addressed to those who attack either form of the Mass – and in this thread it is primarily those who are attacking the OF Mass.

    To all who are arguing over which Mass is correct, or better, the – Ordinary Form (aka OF), or the Extraordinary Form (aka EF, Latin Mass) you need to understand:
    The difference between Tradition that can not be changed – and – Tradition that can be changed by any Pope.

    CCC: ” 83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
    * * * * Tradition is to be DISTINGUISHED from the various theological, disciplinary, LITURGICAL or devotional TRADITIONS, born in the local churches over time.
    These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed.
    In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium. ”

    The Popes have changed the liturgy of the Mass in the Latin Rite (and other approved Rites) many times since the time of the Apostles.
    Popes have the authority to do this from Christ, Himself.
    The liturgy of EF Mass was last changed in 1962. The liturgy of OF Mass was last changed in 2011.

    • Ann Malley says:


      This post is accurate and it stands. It is directed SQUARELY at those who love the Church and are concerned and desirous of aiding Her, not only through the present crisis – but out of it.

      Those who intentionally misconstrue an objective evaluation of a situation and call it bad-mouthing are afraid to face reality. Not facing reality is how and why bad problems get worse. This lazy leadership style, especially from CATHOLIC MEN, is part and parcel of how we’ve come to this point in Holy Mother Church. Rigorous, manly analysis of all solutions is the order of the day. Time to WAKE UP!

      So while it is true that the Pope can change certain things, the liturgy included, not all change is for the good. It can, however, be permitted. God gives us what we ask for. And if we ask to be lazy and not have to think or research or look to the fruits in our own orchard, God often will ALLOW those fruits to be taken away.

      This is shaping up to be one of those times. WAKE UP, men. Be MEN. Embrace fortitude and magnanimity, clothe yourself in the banner of truth. Stop being petty, touchy, and/or frightened when it comes to analyzing problems and potential solutions. All of them. Root cause. Fight! But fight fair and fight smart. Don’t just follow along for fear of being “called” a heretic. Or “fear” of not having your posts be accepted or well received.

      • Anonymous says:

        Ann Malley, those who love the Church adhere to official Church teachings,
        and do not denigrate either the OF or EF Masses – like you do with the OF Mass.
        Those who love the Church do not attend Masses by Priests who have no ministry within the Church.

        Glad you finally admitted that a Pope can change the Liturgy of the OF or EF Mass. – That is an improvement on your part.

        Your post to MIKE made no sense at all and was way off topic. He has nothing to do with the posts of others.
        Please pay attention to whom you are speaking.

        Btw – Good Catholic Men take a stand, they do not cowtow to those in error.
        And you can not stand anyone who proves you wrong.

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        Objectively speaking, Ann Malley, you do not obey the teachings and the discipline of the Roman Pontiff. This is clearly stated by the Roman See itself when, in several instances, it called SSPX into submission.

        If you want objectivity, you would not create so much question about what objectively following the faith actually means. And it surely means obeying the Roman Pontiff in matters of faith and discipline.

        It is not about obeying some obscure, undefined “faith”, it is about obeying the visible head of Christ’s Church, the Roman Pontiff. So while you may claim obedience to some kind of gnosis, gnosticism was deemed a heresy many many centuries ago. Cling to Rome, if you want to be catholic. Otherwise, you obey none other than yourself.

      • Anonymous says:

        Ann Malley, if you loved the Church you would attend an EF or OF Mass by Priests who hold legitimate ministries within the Church.
        Clearly you love the SSPX – not the Catholic Church.

        “Summorum Pontificum” by Pope Benedict given in 2007 about the EF Mass, had nothing to do with the SSPX.
        All 4 of the SSPX Bishops were excommunicated in 1988, and their excommunication was not remitted until 2009.

        The SSPX has nothing to do with anything official within the Catholic Church – since it holds no ministry within the Catholic Church.

        If you and your SSPX followers want UNITY and for the SSPX to regain a ministry within the Catholic Church
        you must stop denigrating the OF Mass,
        stop calling faithful Catholic names which are not true such as “Modernists, admit Vatican II was a legitimately held Council,
        You are not an example of love, but of dissention and hate.

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Anonymous i agree. They sure opened my eyes and i do not want anything to do with people of their mind frame. I consider their words and actions here lacking Christian charity and the admonishment that they receive is true charity. How they twist and take things out of context, their mocking and dissent against Christ’s church and His holy mass has opened my eyes. This world is wicked and even those who use the name Catholic come in all types of dissent. Our Lord warned us about false prophets and false people who call out His name in vein. God help us.

          • Ann Malley says:
          • Anonymous says:

            The gold filled Temple vs the manger and the Cross

          • Catherine says:

            “They sure opened my eyes and i do not want anything to do with people of their mind frame.” = That’s because you are in the same mind frame as YFC who also thinks he reasons well. Stop flip flopping by insulting Our Lord by telling everyone how Protestant ministers opened your eyes on how to treat women. Everyone can easily spot out an outspoken homosexualist activist but other clever and duplicitous snakes are often able to better disguise the saccharin sounding slitherings and the hidden underlying hiss. Never underestimate the extremely cunning work of the father of lies.

          • a word of caution says:

            The devil wants to use these subversives to undermine faith in God by undermining faith in the Mass, the Pope and the Church. He also wants to cause those who will not fail in the faith to fail in charity.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Catherine you and YFC have much more in common than you want to admit. Sorry YFC that she lacks charity and used you in a poor attemp to attack and try to discredit. Thats her style and tries to provoke the same. Whether people disagree or agree, these ladies need as much admonishment, if not more, than the very souls they correct unjustly. Wrong is wrong no matter how holier than thou or how Catholic a person preaches to be. Self righteousness is in their speech. The issue here is not what they are trying to sell against us, the real issue is their gossip and deceptive views they hold against the OF and V2. Also their promotion of schism and heresy through the mindframe of SSPX sect. Pax Christi.

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