Keep self-identified gay leaders out of Boy Scouts

Straight talk from Escondido’s Father Perozich
Father Perozich

Father Perozich

The following comes from a February 9 posting by Matt Abbott on his Renew America website.

Regarding the brouhaha over the Boy Scouts possibly accepting leaders who identify as gay or lesbian, I’ve asked Father Richard Perozich, a priest of the Diocese of San Diego, for his take on the matter. Father’s comments are as follows. (For those who might be wondering, I fully agree with his analysis.)

The Boy Scouts of America is an organization that trains boys to become mature adult men. It is open only to boys who wish to live by its oath and law, which respects God and country and assists others. In this process, it must not only lead boys toward manhood, but also protect them from immoral ideas, philosophies and people. It requires, then, leaders who subscribe to its oath and law and who are mature men and women.

The Boy Scouts are under attack by immature people with immoral ideas and behaviors that have gained a foothold in law, education and the culture. One fierce attack comes from practicing or promoting homosexuals. These ideas and behaviors are against God’s law. Giving in to the ideas and behaviors will not change them from bad actions to good ones.

It must be acknowledged that boys will struggle against lust in its many forms, but a good scout will not identify himself with his temptations simply to end the struggle and justify immoral behavior. With the help of moral leaders, he will be brought to embrace a struggle as one of the many growth issues in life.

Sexuality is a great and sacred gift. A man needs to learn how to relate to men at all times as a man in chaste behavior, and to women in the same way. The expression of physical love belongs only in marriage between a man and a woman. Pornography, fornication, prostitution, masturbation, homosexuality and adultery have no place in religion nor in society – and certainly not in scouting.

I believe there is room in scouting for any boy committed to personal growth in all aspects of his life according to the scout oath and law. Yet if a scout identifies himself by his temptations, he is not engaging the program. He scandalizes other scouts and encourages them to abandon the moral life. Such a scout would need special guidance, and the other scouts would need protection from him, particularly if he sees other boys as potential sex partners.

Adults who reject chastity and who self-identify as gay or lesbian should not be Boy Scout leaders.

Leaders in politics, business and science need to stand up to the radical homosexuals who are attempting to undermine scouting and tell them to keep their passions in check; to ‘come out’ – not to identify as gay or lesbian, mind you, but to come out of homosexuality. Leaders should not give in to the demands of the homosexual lobby and its sympathizers.

To read original posting, click here.

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Comments

  1. Good people who merely have same-sex attraction, will avoid the near occasion of sin.
    Those who intend to commit sin will put themselves as close to their possible targets and the near occasion of sin as possible.

    We all must avoid the near occasion of sin – for whatever our temptations are.

    • Amen! Paul. Amen.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Paul thank you, I agree! In the past I have met a homosexual who said that he may have had many temptations but he would of never impose himself as a role model to any child, he was a decent man who also did not agree with gay’s adopting children. He was a rare case coming from the homosexual community. I miss him because it was refreshing to have met him during his time as he tried to be a better person for God….he died of aids a few years ago. He did try to remain chaste and felt that he was a broken man…He had a rough life and that may have contributed to his disorder..

        • Mary Ann Kreitzer says:

          I am putting him in my rosary prayer journal — and all those same-sex attracted like him who are striving to live chaste lives. May the Divine Assistance be always with him and may he rest in peace, Amen.

    • I believe that the near occasions of sin should wear a lot more clothing than they do these days.

    • John Siple says:

      I completely agree, Paul. A Scout is brave, clean, reverent states the crux of the matter. Clean-spirited means staying away from lust & other near occasions of sin.
      The Scouts very much need to be good role models to each other, and especially that for the Troop Leaders.

  2. “if a scout identifies himself by his temptations, he is not engaging the program.
    He scandalizes other scouts and encourages them to abandon the moral life.
    Such a scout would need special guidance, and the other scouts would need protection from him,
    particularly if he sees other boys as potential sex partners.”

    “Leader should be included.)

  3. Joseph Sprowls says:

    Life was tough enough growing up in the 1950′s with Scoutmasters who pilfered and robbed the coffers of the scouts; or whose work was unexpectedly cut short when they abandoned the troop: The boys were all of vulnerable ages and a “ripe” victimization pool. A predatory environment which need the support of strong, capable, trusting men of high moral fiber. The sexual proclivity of the gay community does not preclude the seduction of victims and it’s as though Gay Leadership roles in Scouting is placing the Fox in charge of the hen house. NO GAY SCOUTMASTERS.

    • My Scouting experience must have been pretty danged good. Looking back on it, there was no scandal, no wisp of dark smoke, all was well. The men were great fathers and trustworthy leaders. I also think that the things they would say late around the campfire about the “greater power”, the Creator (and there were Wasps and Jews and maybe Catholics among the troop) … Their reluctance to get specific built up perhaps a hunger to know God. I recall nothing that detracted from this inspirational aspect of that troop.

  4. Baloney . . . .

    • peter, your blogs prove the point.

    • What I don’t understand peter, is if homosexuality is so great, why don’t you all form your own organizations and glorify yourselves and your proclivities? No one would be stopping you, and it would give the Church, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, schools and other organizations freedom to be what they are intended to be, and y’all can be who you choose to be. Otherwise, it seems pretty obvious that what you truly want is to destroy and complicate simple goodness, and you want to bring everything to your own level. You need to take a good hard look at just who you really are and where you are really going.

      Homosexuals have already destroyed the mainstream Protestant churches and every year the Presbyterians have to struggle to keep from being taken over by the unsavory darker elements bent on forcing their sins on unwilling but aging congregants. It’s unAmerican, unChristian, unwholesome, unwanted and in a nutshell, totally anethema to goodness.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Peter no it’s salami, pastrami….but not for lent because we abstain from any meat products and you should too……ooops let me guess that is not what you are meaning…..get it straight…..coming from a mum….keep the gays away from our kids! Just like the porn starts, NAMBLA, etc etc…stay away….leave kids out of your agenda’s…leadership should display character and integrity in the natural law!

    • What’s the matter peter? Is that sting you felt the truth?

  5. Thank you, Father. Van den Aardweg, Nicolosi and other brave Catholic psychologists have rightly branded homosexual attractions as immature. Those suffering such attractions and identifying with them (that later is the key point) do not belong in Scouting.

  6. Thomas Edward Miles says:

    NONSENSE! Father should register for a class in PSYCHO-SEXUAL development, as should most readers of this site!!!

    • Thomas Edward Miles,

      Thank you for clearly demonstrating the treatment that many good men received and still do receive by their superiors in the seminary if they did not embrace perversion. Goodbye good men. Hello atmosphere of sin, dissent, scandals and 660 million dollar lawsuits.

      Thomas instead of just asking everyone to follow Church teaching as taught through the Magisterium you woke up this morning to scream out 7:22 am obsessive comments about PSCHO-SEXUAL development. Thomas please be more thoughtful and help protect all children.

    • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

      Thomas, Classes do not save you from Sin.

      Its time you started getting concerned about your soul.

    • TEM, now I see where you come from. So this is what a class in psyco-sexual development will lead you to.

    • Did you say psycho? That sounds about right.

    • No, I disagree, TEM. I went through years of psycho-sexual “course work” in my youth. The one thing it took so long to understand was whether all my sexual partners (all women, TEM, which I have to make clear to some of you nebulous sorts and you know why this is) were psycho or I was psycho. Finally I realized that “psycho” has nothing at all to do with it. You get down on your knees before God and you pray as you’ve never prayed before, and then you wait for His answer. You keep waiting until you find that you are responding to His Will. You cannot do this, TEM, unless you exalt God and humble yourself. There is no other way, dude. I’ve been through the whole trip as an adult, meaning I was conscious and aware and reflective and used reason and solid resources to learn and practice the right decisions. God’s way works; go for it.

  7. Very clear, positive and comprehensive message. Thank you, Fr. Perozich and Matt Abbott, for defending boys and scouting.

    • Maria, my sentiments exactly. Fr. Perozich is clearly a very wise and thoughtful priest.

      • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

        Fr. Perozich my friend, as a 30+ year Scouter who taught his boys the Holy Rosary and other good things, I salute you Father.

        Here is what I sent to the National Executive Committee of the Boys Scouts today:

        “Dear Members of the Scouting Executive Committee,

        I am appalled to read that the “Executive Committee” did not want us volunteers who work or worked in Scouting to know about their planned discussions about including sodomites into Scouting.

        If they do this, forget about “Youth Abuse Prevention” and the hours it takes to qualify.

        Do these so called Executives even know of the Scout Oath and Laws? They sure aren’t acting Trustworthy” when they try to hide from us their machinations!

        Kenneth M. Fisher
        Former Asst. Scout Master, Troop 73, 30+ year Scouter, One time 1K Donor
        Anaheim, CA”

        Enough said!

        God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
        Kenneth M. Fisher

    • Matt Abbott is one of the best lay Catholic writers “out there”, as he seems to dig into the critical issues with the required insight.

  8. Boy Scouts should not have women leaders.

    • I was a den mother for cub scouts. My husband taught neat projects like how to make lanterns out of tin cans. I would take the boys out for cleanup the neighborhood days and we’d pick up trash, trim sidewalks, etc. and when we had the soap box derby the boys made imaginative designs that went pretty fast too. I also had a brownie troop at one time, and taught the girls modern dance, community projects etc. roller skating and very patriotic sing alongs. In both girls and boys when they’re that young, what they really need is just someone older to teach them traditons that were taught them when they were small. That’s how we keep the culture going. I didn’t bring any sort of agenda other than what scouting is meant to do. When boys reach puberty, then yes, they should only have strong and capable men to teach them and go camping. It makes me ill to think of these innocent children being abused by predators.

      • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

        I will not have a skirt wearer teach my boys how to be Men. I understand perfectly you are a good mother and a good woman, but its not your business to teach boys how to be men by mothering them. Sorry.

        • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka the majority of young boys have a skirt wearer to teach them. That would be their mother.

          • At some point in a boy’s life, Tracy, he has to begin the move into manhood. Girls do not have a counterpart in their journey to womanhood. It is completely different, which is why mothers cannot help their sons become men. If it weren’t so, then men would not make the claim … compiche?

        • Mark from PA says:

          Folks, cub scouts have always had den mothers. Lets not put them down. Dana, thanks for sharing. You are a good mom to be so involved with your children including your involvement with the scouts.

          • Nobody put down den mothers, PA. The den mothers of my cub scout days were great, couldn’t be better. Wasps, Jews, Catholics and Mormons, as I recall.

          • … also, among them were Masons. This all followed into the Boy Scouts, and we had a great troop of them. No women were involved ever in our Boy Scout troop, except perhaps at home helping us shop for our uniforms and gear. There was never a woman at any of our Boy Scout meetings or camp outs. Late in the evenings around the one big campfire, there would eventually descend a reverence upon all of us, and then a spokesman would direct our thoughts to the One God. No one ever dissented, and although it was a vague reference due to the various religions among us, one can find St Paul telling the Corinthians about the “unknown” God.

        • Well, as far as I know, they only have Den mothers for cub scouts, so you’d better keep your boys as far away from them as possible. As I said, when they reach puberty, then men should take over…and since my son was raised by me til he was six and is an incredibly manly man, I think you don’t know what you’re talking about…but that’s what I get for giving personal information. In future I won’t share anything personal about myself as it is no one’s business anyway. But you’re correct in one thing, I do wear skirts!

          • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

            I too am opposed to women Scout Leaders; however I must confess that in my Scouting days, I met some very fine women who did their very best to raise fine young men and fill the gap when there weren’t enough willing men to take reins.

            I do believe that boys need good wholesome men as peer figures as do girls need go wholesome women as peer figures.

            God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
            Kenneth M. Fisher

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Skai glad you brought that up….I agree…

  9. Fr. Perozich is one of my heroes, and God knows there are very few left that have not disappointed us as humans go. We all let others down at times. May God keep him on the straight and narrow, give him wisdom and prudence and keep him in his care and grace.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      I agree Anne T, he is one of my hero’s too. MAKE HIM THE NEXT POPE…well if the Holy Ghost commands…God’s will not mine!

  10. As a father who has a son in Scouts I don’t want to see the directive change. The focus should be raising up boys to become men of integrity. I think those with other ideas should start their own organization. To be a scout is to be morally straight. That means to live a right life of chastity and fidelity to develop the character to honor their wife and family.

    • I agree Wheels, the BSA is a private organization and the Supreme Court ruled that they could determine their own leadership and members. It is only within the last 10 years or so that some Christian denominations have caved on the immorality of homosexual acts. As soon as they allowed gay ministers gay marriage was the next to fall. Slowly gay agenda has been breaking down all aspects of our society. I urge the BSA to hold strong against this assault.

      • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

        lisag,

        That was a 5 to 4 decision. God help us if Obama has the opportunity to replace any of those 5!

        God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
        Kenneth M. Fisher

    • Maryanne Leonard says:

      If there were a regular Boy Scouts and a Gay Boy Scouts, I imagine that few of even the most liberal-minded parents would encourage their boys to choose the Gay Boy Scouts . . . unless the parents were themselves gay. I actually know through a community service organization a woman whom I later discovered had been living with a gay woman for a dozen years, and they chose to raise the other woman’s daughter as their own, and to be gay. When she “came out” to us, she bragged that she had managed to raise a gay daughter with this other woman, a source of true pride to her. And she is active in a local Protestant church, where some of them, including the pastor, knew all this. Of course, the lesbian couple are now “divorced,” the legal and financial battles have cost over $100,000 so far, and the daughter is a heroin addict who tried to take her own life three times by age 22, and she didn’t even need the help of a Gay Girl Scouts organization to achieve this masterpiece of parenting. I’m not saying that all gay couples make poor parents, but my instinct is that anyone who would send their child to a gay-oriented Scouts group on purpose is already a failed parent.

      • High schools have gay clubs now with faculty sponsors. How would this fit in with the prospect of a gay boy scouts organization?

    • Wheels, it is not gay “nature” to go on their own. They want you and your sons; they want everyone and all the children. They will not leave others alone, but never rest trying to seduce creation.

  11. I am heartened by the overwhelming love and concern that the church has for homosexuals. Kick them out of social organizations. Protect the right of devout employers to fire gay employees. Heck, we should protect the right of NFL owners to refuse to sell tickets to gay fans, and electronics stores from selling internet capable computers to customers they suspect are gay (to prevent them from preying up unsuspecting children on the net and from feeding their sick desires by surfing to online porn sites).

    Of course, in our campaign to root out mortal sin from people we should not stop with gay people. We need to make sure that masturbators cannot obtain employment or belong to private social organizations. If we ardently pursue this campaign against sin, we will all find ourselves locked in padded rooms, incapable of committing sin.

    Of course, we might have a little problem with starving to death because no one will be able to grow food while all the sinners of the world are isolated in little rooms.

    • Typical snide liberal response, yes we should purge ALL GAYS from the CHURCH, OH God how I detest liberals

      • Maryanne Leonard says:

        Better to differentiate between hating liberals and hating what they think, do, say and stand for – there’s a huge difference, and it has to do with trying like mad not to harden our hearts against people just because their thinking has been twisted away from common sense by liberal teachers, liberal laws, and the fact that liberals usually seem to be living much wilder, more exciting lives, doing crazy, stupid things in defiance of common sense. Young people often are attracted to these kinds of people on the edge, and it would be better to try to talk some sense into them than simply to go around hating them ipso facto. But I agree, the temptation is just to dismiss them as hopeless and not even worry or care about them, as they refuse to take responsibility for their irresponsibility. Still, to actively hate them hardens something in our own souls, and we want to avoid that as it is not the best way to go through life trying to be good Christians.

        • Some souls have become one with sin, sort of the opposite of the faithful becoming one with God. When is the last time someone whose father “is the father of lies” gave up his inherited condition and turned to Christ?

      • Why stop with gays, Canisius? Gluttony is a terrible sin as well. We should also prevent fat people from leadership positions in the Boy Scouts. In fact, I think Churches should have weigh-ins and if people fail their BMI more than twice per year, they should be booted out. We can’t expose children to the bad habits of gluttons.

        Of course masturbaters and people who regularly experience lust should also be kicked out of social organizations and removed from their jobs. The church could then talk about how much they love gluttons, masturbaters, and lust-filled sinners and how they shouldn’t be ridiculed and should be treated with dignity, while making sure that the only time they are mentioned are when bringing up yet another group which they should be booted out of or another job they should be fired from.

        Maybe we could tell fat people they are welcome in the Church as long as they join gluttons anonymous and refrain from stuffing their faces.

        • Maryanne Leonard says:

          JonJ, fat people are made to feel unwelcome everywhere already, and they therefore feel unwelcome even in their own bodies. Fat people are looked at in horror, and the viewers then either look away or work consciously to look the fat person in the eye, as if trying to give them the message, “let’s pretend I’m not horrified by the way you look.” No need to kick them out of our churches; they are already kicked out of our society at every turn.

          Gay people often hide behind the lie that they hope is believed that they are not really gay, or that they are gay but it’s terrific to be gay; they are loud and they are proud, while everyone else is sick to their stomach at the thought of their secret, disgusting behavior. Nobody needs to kick them out of the church either; in fact, the best hope for their salvation of course lies in following Jesus Christ, the same as for everybody else. That means they need the Church and its guidance, which most of them do not follow, at least as much as the rest of us, and most of us think they “need religion” much more than most. The problem is that gay people have taken lots of actions to destroy the Church from within and ridicule it from without. They have chosen the side of Satan not merely in their deviant sexuality, but even in their relationship to the Holy Mother Church!

          If fat people ever became so evil, we would be as challenged not to despise them as we are not to despise the evil homosexuals among us. Not that there’s anything wrong with evil homosexuals, I’m sure most liberals would be quick to add. I’ll let God be the judge of that. And of fat people, of course.

          Meantime, all are welcome at God’s table. Jesus Christ came to save the sinners, not the righteous. Gay people are pretending to be righteous, whereas they are not; fat people are told they are not worthy of love or life, whereas they are.

    • Last I checked there weren’t any large Masturbater’s advocacy groups pressuring the BSA into letting Masturbater’s be scout leaders. Just as I would oppose letting a self identified lgbt individual from being a scout leader I would also oppose letting self identifying or advocate of masturbater, zoophile, person with genetic sexual attraction, etc.

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        Loraine: LGBT need advocates because they constitute about 4% of the population. They are a very vulnerable minority to pick on. Masturbators, on the other hand (so to speak), constitute about 97% of the population. And because of that, they just ignore the other 3% who castigate them.

    • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

      @Jon J,
      You are being petty about some very serious matters and what is at stake is the souls of millions for eternity. The Church which is Christ who is Holy cannot deceive and nor be deceived.
      Baptized people do sin. However no well-ordered Christian goes around celebrating their sinfulness in public.

      Cannibals who used to love people meat before they are baptized renounce cannibalism after baptism. That does not mean they do not miss and get tempted to eat people meat, but they rely on Christ whose grace is always sufficient for those open to him to resist the temptation to eat other people. And After their baptism, they do not celebrate their past sinful way of life.
      So it should be with a converted gay person. The object in question, which is unnatural acts between people who cannot enter into the sacrament of matrimony, is not something the Church (Christ) will ever condone.
      This is who God is. He dislikes sin and loves the sinner. Renounce Satan and All His Works, pray for the grace to leave behind a sinful life.
      On the other hand sexuality is not something that a Christian walks around flaunting. No, while good Christians love having Sex, they subject it like all other primal instincts to reason. A married man with Children at home cannot go and sleep around with other women who are not his wife and claim to love his Children and his wife. For love is not a warm fuzzy feeling. Love in its true nature is perfected on the Cross. True love = suffering on behalf of others. Self-control over skirts is no-where near suffering. Yet love demands to be expressed that way. If you love your children, behave like a father that loves his children, show that love by avoiding bimbos who would come and ruin their peaceful childhood.

      If you claim to love gay men, help them stay away from sex outside of true marriage that is true love. Self-sacrificial love. Anything else is selfishness. If I as a man truly loves the bimbo, I will not sleep with her. I will let her keep her clothes on, precisely because I love her until I have married her. That way I can love her by giving myself totally with all that I own to her. Love=Cross. Without sacrifice there is no love. It’s just a fuzzy selfish feeling.
      Temptations to sin with other people will remain. Just as normal married men and women get the temptation to sleep around, but through grace and a well ordered life, live a life without marital infidelity.

      Lastly, look at your anatomy, and imagine the anatomy of the opposite gender. Is it not obvious that your anatomy is intended for something more than just self-gratification? The pleasures derived from the marital act are secondary to the primary purpose of the act, which is pro-creation and survival of the specie.

      • Mark from PA says:

        Now gay people are being compared to cannibals! Wow, the insults just get weirder. A person’s sexuality is not something that they need to be converted from.

        • Mark, I did not take MKM that way. In no way was she insulting homosexuals. I thought her analogy was excellent. She never stated that a cannibal needed to be converted from his desire to eat human meat, only that he needed to avoid ever engaging in his desire to eat human meat, which is against Gods laws. Likewise, she never said that any person needed to be converted from their sexuality, only that they needed to avoid ever engaging in unlawful sex, per God’s commands. Maybe MKM is from Papua New Guinea and this analogy made sense to her.

          Mark be content with following God’s commands. Your feelings are getting you off track.

        • Rhythm band says:

          As far as sin goes, engaging sodomy has the same effect on the soul as eating another human being. Its a grave sin.

        • Gay people are gravely sinful in all cases. Cannibals are sinful not for eating people … but could be sinful for associated acts such as killing them or eating living people. Some cannibalism is ritualistic in that the night after the burial, some people dig up the corpse and eat specific parts of it so as to gain specific virtues they believe will accrue accordingly.

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        1)ditto Mark’s thought about the insulting comparision between cannibalism vs homosexuality.

        2) Mbuku, are a certain percentage of the population born cannibals? Are they not able to obtain nutrition from eating other meats?

        3) I repeat what I’ve said earlier and in other posts: There is no evidence that a person with a homosexual orientation can “come out” of the orientation, any more than a person with a heterosexual orientation can “come out” with a gay orientation.

        4) Mbuki, you make your case for abstaining from eating human flesh and gay sex. Fine. But changing the orientation is beyond the capability of therapy and religion.

        • There is no commandment against eating dead people. But there is a commandment against sodomy. Cannibals are not necessarily sinning in that act, but sodomites are always guilty of their acts.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Are you kidding me Skai?

            Cannibalism usually involves the killing of the human subject. And besides, if one cannabalizes a naturally dead corpse, I hardly think that is in keeping with NUMEROUS biblical references to respect for the dead. It certainly would stand in opposition to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which requires a suitable burial. How can one bury one who has been eaten?

            There are far more references in scripture to improper treatment of a corpse than to homosexuality, actually.

          • Cannibalism is not intrinsically evil. Sometimes is allows survival for isolated people. Sometimes the death is natural or accidental and then eaten in ritual. Show me where God’s law specifically forbids cannibalism in all cases.

        • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

          So called “Your Fellow Catholic”,

          What are your academic qualifications? We know Dr. Nicolosi’s qualifications. What are yours?

          Kenneth M. Fisher

          • Rhythm band says:

            His qualifications are bad judgement. He left the Catholic faith a long time ago and does not even know it.

            As for “2) are a certain percentage of the population born cannibals? Are they not able to obtain nutrition from eating other meats?’

            Human beings are perfectly capable of living a full life without sexual activity. Our Lord and many saints have proved it.

      • Mubuku, on the surface, my posts may seem petty (if you are also making an oblique reference to some of my posts in the Benedict resigns thread). Yet, I am making a point about how the Church’s actions with respect to homosexuals do not match their words.

        I do understand how most people find homosexuals repulsive. The idea of sexual relations with someone of the same sex is simply not a pleasant idea at a visceral level. What I am saying is, that you cannot allow that disgust to color how you treat such a person compared to other individuals with equally serious sin (as measured by theology) such as masturbation, giving in to mental lusts (the determination to fornicate even if you cannot persuade individuals to cooperate in the actual act), fornicators, or even severe cases of gluttony (which is also can be serious sin).

        With most “normal” sins, even serious offenses seem understandable simply because most of us have had sexual urges, or enjoyed food, or wanted to inflict harm on some other individual without carrying out the act. Consequently, such sinners are comprehensible to us. In fact, many hold a weird sort of forbidden admiration for mafia figures who regularly engage in violent crimes and specifically scheme and plot to inflict harm upon others. People often perceive them as “dominant” or “successful” so that despite their heinous acts are admirable on a “worldly” level.

        Yet, homosexuality is often perceived as rooted in “failed” sexuality, and when combined with the revulsion we feel when trying to mentally put ourselves in their place, generally they are considered worldly failures. That leads to a much higher level of contempt combined with moral outrage. Thus, homosexuals are often the target of incessant mockery and contempt that begins in junior high. In my all male catholic jesuit high school, homosexuals were blatantly mocked multiple times a day among students—and, taking a trip through my nephew’s catholic grade school’s courtyard and hearing similar mockery (with teachers mostly ignoring it), I can see things really aren’t that different despite supposedly changed social values.

        And, the Church isn’t really all that different in its behavior. Homosexuality is a sin that seems to garner much more attention and public comment than other sins. The Church has frequently supported legal positions about keeping gays from serving in the military, supporting the right of employers to fire gay employees, or to exclude gays from social organizations; and, indeed, asserting that gay inclinations (even without actions) make one unfit to serve God as clergy.

        Consider the much more common sin of gluttony, that probably causes far more damage in society than homosexuality, is almost largely ignored. Gluttony, btw, is at epic proportions in US society, with massive numbers of people morbidly obese and a terrible diet leading to outrageous numbers of type 2 diabetes. The health carnage of gluttony, and the wrecked families of children denied parents due to the health care problems like heart disease, cigarette smoking (another form of gluttony than food), drug addiction, substance abuse, and morbid obesity far outstrips the harm caused by homosexuality (which is actually practiced only by a rather small percentage of people, on the order of 3%). While AIDS gets headlines, the carnage from heart attack, diabetes, strokes, and substance abuse are MUCH MUCH more prevalent. Yet, gluttons suffer barely a fraction of the contempt that homosexuals do, and certainly the Church never suggests that gluttons be fired from jobs or excluded from private social groups.

        Yet, who is much more likely to harm your child? The homosexual whose example might turn your child gay (highly unlikely since 3% of people might be homosexual), or the glutton that introduces your child to the sweets and dietary junk food that will cause the much more common health disasters I listed above (as well as the moral pit of uncontrolled worldly appetites such as drug addiction)?

        Yet, the Church never seems to suggest that employers should have the right to fire 400lb fat employees on moral grounds, or that social organizations be allowed to exclude them as a matter of religious freedom, or that children need protection from them. However, when the church talks about homosexuals it is almost always in connection with justifications about excluding them from a job, or some other social group. Of course, only after talking about how they should be excluded, will they belatedly add that homosexuals should be treated with “dignity” and not abused by violence.

        It seems to me that much of the treatment of certain sinners is not proportionate to the harm caused by the sin. Instead, even the Church seems influenced by visceral disgust when it comes to issues like the propriety of social exclusion. In Christ’s era it was lepers who engendered this kind of response from society.

        While one can say that leprosy was a disease (thus not the sufferer’s fault), Hebrew society at the time BELIEVED the leper to be at fault. Many considered leprosy the result of violating old testament dietary proscriptions. Also, the jews of that era tended to believe that worldly fortune was a reflection of that person’s adherence to god’s law. Thus, wealth and fortune was the consequence of upright morality, while poverty and disease indicated moral corruption. Yet, into the teeth of this belief, Jesus embraced the poor, sick and destitute.

        While the analogy isn’t exact, the disproportionate response is there. Tell me honestly, how many people have watched with a sort of weird admiration for the criminal achievements of the Corleone family in “The Godfather”? Yet, isn’t clear that these criminals who knowingly scheme to visit terrible harm on others are far more morally reprehensible than a homosexual who has no such intent? Be honest, which one disgusts you more? Which one have you hurled ridicule at, homosexuals or mafia assassins (if only their movie avatars)? I, for one, have not gone to any home poker games where mafia assassins were the butt of contemptuous jokes. Most of you would be lying if you tried to say the same thing about gay people.

        As for the “petty” nature of my posts. Let me ask you this, how many will actually read this “polite” and “rational” analysis? Probably not many. Few will even bother to read it, and it will make an impact on even fewer. Yet my “petty” posts make you sit up and take notice.

        • Maryanne Leonard says:

          JonJ, more people would read your posts if they didn’t reflect a chilling sort of bias and the occasional surprising twisting of rationality.

          Fat people may not be gluttons; they may have to work sitting down all day, then go home to make quick dinners for their families, which are often unhealthy, then do housework, personal care, and care for others in their families, with no time to exercise. They may have inherited or biological defects, and they may not have enough money to buy healthy foods. The brains of fat people light up identically to drug addicts when they ingest sugar, indicating physical addiction based in the brain originally.

          I think few people admire Mafia members, although perhaps you do, and your assumption that others do is perhaps based on your misperceptions. Homosexual activity is practiced by about 10% of the population, whereas only 3% self-identify as homosexuals, so on that you are wrong as well. You enjoy pontificating but are apparently not similarly addicted to acquiring factual information, and your horror of becoming fat is readily discerned in your obsession with writing about it at length. That’s a gay fetish even though many women and a few straight men worry about it too.

          It just takes becoming informed to attract more readers of your posts. Besides, how do you know how many read your posts? It seems to me you get more than your share of responses, but the preponderance thereof seems to be negative or at least in direct opposition, discrediting your assertions, so obviously somebody is reading you, although who knows what their motivation is.

          I read virtually all comments, and have come to take many of them as unCatholic or misguided, though some are brilliant, and I learn from many commentors of all types. You have a good mind but need to get your facts straight and conclusions straighter.

          • Maryanne, I am not at all fixated on gluttony. In fact, this thread is the first time I have even mentioned it on this site.

            As for the frequency of homosexuality, boy that one’s a real quagmire. The 10% number you cite got into public consciousness from the Kinsey studies, and many people have raised big questions about their validity. Kinsey himself was discovered be bisexual and into all kinds of wild sexual practices, suggesting his research might have been biased. Also, Kinsey was including some very marginal behavior under his 10% umbrella. The 3% numbers is also frequently cited and usually applies to dedicated homosexuals who repeat the behavior.

            What number is appropriate will depend on the particular context. In this case, it seemed the concern was with unapologetic and unephemeral homosexual behavior.

            Of course, I must note that people often will cite whichever number seems to help their current argument. Somehow, I doubt you will see the 10% number as the most credible when discussing political rights of homosexuals or when talking to a politician to persuade him to vote against a pro-homosexual bill. I suspect you’d think 1%, or .000001%, is the true number.

        • Mark from PA says:

          JonJ, you have made many good observations here. Your analogy about the admiration that some have for the criminals in “The Godfather” is something to think about. I have always had trouble understanding the attraction that violence has for some in our society. This was brought home to me today when I read comments that a Father Trigilio made about the death of Chris Kyle. Some quotes, “Chris Kyle was tragically murdered. He, however, did not murder anyone even though he killed 160 people. Those targets were valid military objectives. Chris Kyle was an American hero. While we do not rejoice that 160 people were killed, we are grateful 160 enemies of our country were neutralized. Not every soldier can be a sniper. Besides that training and ability needed, one must also have the stamina and strength to kill someone by name.” As a pro-life person I am astounded by how this priest seemed to me to glorify violence.
          The people killed were referred to as “valid military targets” who were neutralized. Well, if you were the mother of one of those men that was killed would it make you feel better if they were referred to as “neutralized”? The priest talks about a person having the stamina and strength to kill someone by name. It makes me think of how as young persons we were told to avoid occasions of sin. I think being trained to kill a person in this matter is exposing oneself to an occasion of sin. I always wondered if when we are in Purgatory if we have to make up for the wrongs that we have done to others. If Chris Kyle killed 160 people he may have a lot of making up to do. The Catholic Church teaches of the importance of the sanctity of life.

          • PA — These so called precious lives that you are so concerned with that Chris Kyle killed would have murdered anyone of us in the name of their false God. I really am astounded by your naiveté, I really am.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Canisius, I am just somewhat stunned that a priest would show such admiration for someone for killing 160 people. How does killing so many people harm a person mentally, emotionally and spiritually? One of the commandments is “Thou Shalt Not Kill”. Does this commandment not hold if you are killing someone who belongs to a different religion?

          • PA, those “killings” were done in the context of War. Perhaps the good father admired Chris Kyle’s bravery in combat.

          • Mark, the whole “Just War” theology is well developed, but still hard to apply.

            In the case of Chris Kyle, its really hard for anyone outside his brain to truly know his moral status. Just War doctrine establishes that a catholic may kill as a soldiers IF they hold a good faith belief that the cause they are fighting for is morally sound. Basically, just war proscribes war for the purpose of conquest or personal gain, but allows it for strategic national defense.

            The most tricky part of just war doctrine is that soldiers from both sides can kill each other for morally sound reasons, as long as both hold reasonable beliefs that their cause is just.

            For the individual, it will come down to why Chris Kyle killed 160 people—and that is hard to know for anyone outside his own mind. His colleagues will have strong indications from close-up observation, but will still not know with certainty. People fighting in an objectively just war can still be acting on evil reasons: such as, they simply participate because they will not suffer social punishment and they relish killing or think they will win personal gain out of doing it regardless of the moral aspect.

            In this case, the problems seems to be one of tone—if I accurately perceive the priest’s statements from your rendition here. His statements seem to be a bit too “rah rah” for me. Killing in battle (even in a just war) is a tragedy, and comments about soldiers and combat should reflect that. Especially given that JPII himself spoke out against American intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even so, Kyle’s acts could still be moral under just war theology, depending on his evaluation of situation.

            The contrast of a sniper’s job does seem pretty jarring to a pro-life position. And, I have to admit, I am very concerned about how blithely our country is using assassination as a matter of national policy. Our drone strikes and kill teams used to fight a counter-insurgency war are troublesome.

            Recently, I read about the ww2 fighter mission to shoot down Admiral Yamamoto transport plane. Admiral Nimitz, or maybe George Marshall, specifically consulted moral leaders to inquire whether such a mission was morally sound before giving the order. Today, we do it as a matter of routine. We are a long way from where we were in ww2. I fear we’ve gotten too callous about it.

          • Mark, then how do you reconcile the battle of Lepanto? Our Holy Father Pius V. brought together naval fleets from several European nations in order to fight the Ottoman Turks. He knew the threat that they posed to Europe. After the Christians won, Pope Pius V. credited the victory to our Blessed Mother under the title of Our Lady of Victory. Later this feast was changed to Our Lady of the Rosary which we still commemorate to this day.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Canisius, this morning I was at the funeral Mass for the mother of several of my friends. She was a mother of 6 children and lived a long and fruitful life of service to her family and her church. To me she was a true hero. My mother was also a hero to me. She was a quiet, gentle woman who never had an unkind word to say about anyone. These women were quiet heroes but they dedicated their lives to their families.

        • Rhythm band says:

          How many people brag in public about engaging in masturbating? Few if any, unlike sodomites.

          Therein lies the difference. People naturally do not like boasting about repugnant and sinful acts.

          That is why sodomites are so repugnant as individuals. They Celebrate their repulsive acts.

          mbuku is correct, there is absolutely no difference between someone celebrating sodomy or cannibalism. These two are extremely repulsive to any sensible human being and need a serious training of the will to overcome the natural filters that are in every human person to overcome and engage in.

          • Mark from PA says:

            If a sniper shot and killed someone and he was a Catholic wouldn’t he have to go to confession and seek absolution for doing this? It would still be a sin against the 5th Commandment.

          • Sodomy is intrinsically evil, but cannibalism is not.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Well, Skai, killing and eating another person seems pretty evil to me and probably a lot of other people. It seems that you think being a homosexual is worse than killing someone.

    • Jon J. those who commit the other sins are not on here nor do they come on here pushing their favorites sins. There is a difference you know between sinning and trying not to do it again, and advocating and approving it and trying to get others to encourage it too.

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        The problem that JonJ raises is why is it that THIS sin — homosexual sexual activity — so much the subject of ridicule on CCD? No one on CCD would DARE treat those guilty of gluttony or false witness or sloth or warmongering or preparation for war or even heresies against the Councils of the Church with as much disdain as this one relatively unpracticed sin, would they? No one on CCD would be allowed to post distorted and inaccurate representations of Church teaching as much as those who distort it with the purpose to demean and condemn people with homosexual orientations.

        And on the point of false witness… gay people, regardless of whether they practice same sex sexual activity or not, have been called Nazis, mafia members, sodomites, child molesters, immature, infiltrators, liars, heretics, and more… THIS WEEK ALONE on CCD.

        Members of this forum ought to call this hypocrisy for what it is and speak out loudly against it.

        • “I expect others to behave with charity and love. Is that so much to ask of a Christian?’

          This individual is not the least bit interested in Christian charity when it comes to homosexuality. You could hand him whipped creamed banana splits, Hallmark cards galore and balloons, but if you also tell him that he cannot serve two masters he will call your charity hate. He is interested in ONLY one thing …bulldozing moral values.

          I expect faithful Catholics to charitably correct those who live in sin with their homosexual partner for 22 years.

          It appears that the poster who wants a 22 year old homosexual partnered lifestyle equated as just being another fellow Catholic, is following orders from homosexual mission control by stepping up the pace and continuing on the march for acceptance of sin.

          “We need, in every community, a group of angelic troublemakers.”

          • Whipped cream banana splits, Hallmark cards and balloons are tokens; they are not love. “Love is patient; love is kind. Love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong but rejoices in the right.” Happy St. Valentine’s Day.

        • How do you know that? The fact is you don’t. Gheesh! I should know better — trying to argue with a practicing homosexual is like trying to argue with a drunk — they just go around and around and around, and nothing gets resolved. Now I will resolve it for myself. I am out of here and going back to my former practice of not even discussing such issues with the Jon J’s nor the Mark’s from PA — now he will scream he is NOT practicing, although he sure does encourage the behavior; nor the YFC, who really is INMYFC *Is not my young fellow Catholicd.) Bye, bye all.

    • Mark from PA says:

      JonJ, I get what you are saying. I don’t think the posters here would hold straight boys to those standards. I don’t think they would think that straight boys who are not sexually pure should be banned from the Boy Scouts.

      • Teachers and others have told plenty of ‘Straight” boys to stop talking “potty mouth”, and if they do not, they are punished. Boys with homosexual inclinations did not have to go around spouting off about it all the time either.

        • Mark from PA says:

          Anne T, being gay or identifying as gay doesn’t mean that someone has a “potty mouth.” I don’t think young people should be punished for being honest about this. In truth, most probably don’t even discuss it with most people as they don’t think they would understand.

          • Mark from PA, what we are saying is that the Boys Scouts is a place for learning survival techniques and good morals, and there is no need to discuss sexual issues on those trips. If one has a sexual identity problem (and you will probably take offense at that remark as you take offense at most everything), the sexual identity problem should be discussed with others outside the Scout group that are closer to that person.

            Quite frankly, although heterosexuals know that not all homosexuals and Lesbians are attracted to every same sex person they see, just as heterosexuals are not attracted to every member of the opposite sex they see, many of us — probably most — are uncomfortable having someone tell us they are attracted to members of their own sex, and the idea that the person might be trying to start an intimate relationship with us does cross our minds. That is a natural assumption as most people have had a member of their own sex really try to “pick up on them”.

            I was in a bank one time when a woman ahead of me kept smiling and winking at me. I gave her a mean look but turned around to see if she was flirting with someone else, but it was me. My mean looks told her I was not interested, so some homosexuals do use their open identity to try to start improper relationships with others in groups. That is FACT and cannot be encouraged in the Boy Scours.

            Also, Mark, you have a way of twisting people’s words. I did not say that identifying as homosexuals was being “potty mouth”. I was just using it as an example of the times when heterosexual boys are disciplined and asked not to discuss certain things, so the same discipline should be applied to same-sex attracted people.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Anne T. On the potty mouth controversy: I can’t believe we are even having this discussion. There is nothing in any of these proposals to allow potty mouth conversations. But my own experience with guys prone to potty mouth is that it is often closeted masculine gay guys who engage in potty mouth as a way of keeping others from figuring out that they are gay. The less masculine guys keep a low profile to not attract attention to themselves. Either way, the closet is the cause of a great deal of potty mouth, not the “gay”. If gay were not something to be feared, then it wouldn’t even be a matter for conversation let alone potty mouth-ed-ness

      • Boy Scouts in the USA age from ten years old to about thirteen, PA. Now how is it that you are associating them with sexual activism? The whole point is to protect them from sex predators and teach them sexual morality. But you’d have gay blades sneak in to their camps and tents at night and teach them one of the greatest abominations of all time.

  12. Your Fellow Catholic says:

    There is no evidence that someone can “come out of homosexuality”, any more than a person can “come out of heterosexuality”. Nicolosi and others who claim they can make someone ex-gay are selling a load that you don’t want stinking up your front lawn.

    • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

      There is however overwhelming evidence that a person can live a perfectly celibate life without publicily flaunting their sexuality.

      • Cheeseburger says:

        Dr. Nicolosi is a very caring psychotherapist…I have met him and I can assure you he is a very devout and good man, as well as being a brilliant behavioral scientist…

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        Mbuku, I don’t disagree with you. But that is different than changing one’s sexual orientation.

    • I personally know a woman who identified as a lesbian for years, was in a relationship with a woman for several years and then fell in love with a man, married him and has been happily married with three children for over 30 years. This woman is one of my aunt’s sisters. My aunt’s sister changed on her own. Also, a male family member of mine, identified himself as a gay man and for years he was very flamboyant in his mannerisms. He stopped hanging around his gay friends and stopped going to gay night clubs a couple years ago and I can honestly say he acts more masculine and he is now saying he thinks he is bisexual. People can and do change.

      • I believe a lot of SSA people nowadays are that way because of their environment or our society giving them the green light to sample different things.

        • St Paul explains sodomy as being the consequence ie punishment for sin, meaning for society’s sin, especially as it becomes institutionalized or culturally acceptable. St Paul was a highly educated Jewish pharisee whose teacher was one of the most famous Jewish professors in history. So, to understand a lot of what St Paul refers to one should find out thoroughly what the Old Testament says. The Church captures one aspect of OT by the phrase, “The sins of the Fathers.” The “sins of the fathers” refers to two verses in the OT where God explains (through His prophets) that sins will carry down ten generations in one verse and one hundred generations in another verse. This theme serves to remind all that the consequences of sin carries down from Adam and Eve. Gays deny their sinful condition and behavior as evil. By doing this they exalt their own perversion over God’s instruction and Law. There is only one course of relief for these souls, and it is not through their depraved apologetics, but through humility and Christ. St Paul: “Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord”.

        • Not likely, Loraine, as sodomy is an ancient practice, nothing new. Society is somehow encouraging it to manifest, though

      • He’s still a sodomite, Lorraine. All he’s done from your description is change his mannerisms. Some gays are effeminate and some put on a kind of masculinity … but they’re still sodomites.

        • Just for clarification, Skai, he is not a practicing homosexual or bisexual. To my knowledge he has not been in a relationship for a few years now and he never really was in a relationship. The point I was trying to make and I guess I wasn’t clear enough, was that he was a self identified gay man and now he is also interested in women. I believe he is moving away from the homosexuality to heterosexuality. If your definition of a sodomite is a man who still lusts after men in his heart then he might still be a sodomite. The fact that he is now interested in women is a good sign and a sign that he is changing.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Loraine: Both of these people are possibly bisexual.

            Bisexuals have the worst of all worlds. They are told by straight people to “choose morality”, and they are told by gay people that they just need to come out (as gay). There is a fair amount of pressure from both sides.

            As for “nowadays”…I think that in the past – and to an extent still today – a lot of people didn’t believe there was such a thing as bisexuality. The reason for this seems to be that a lot of gay people described themselves as bisexual when they were coming to terms with their sexuality. They thought it easier to say that they were bisexual than that they were gay. But the result is that those gay folk then sometimes go on to deny that they were ever bisexual, and contribute to the idea that bisexual people just need to finish coming out.

            I do think that as we understand more about bisexuality, the numbers of people who identify as gay as well as the number of people who identify as straight will decrease slightly, and the percentage who identify as bi will increase slightly, for this reason. To put it simply, people will (hopefully) not feel the need to put people into a box.

            My personal opinion – and I have no proof for this – is that the people who adamantly believe sexual orientation is a choice are probably bisexual. For them, they do experience a choice, so they assume it is a choice for everyone. But if you talk to a straight person they have no attraction for the same sex, and for a true gay person they cannot conceive of being attracted to the opposite sex.

          • Sodomites, Loraine, are known to be extremely active with countless sex partners … their life is not one of monogamous relationships, regardless of what they tell you.

          • YFC, a “bisexual” is nothing but a homosexual, a sodomite. Why split hairs, why launch into a meaningless morass of minutia?

      • I am a senior Loraine, and over the years I have known many such people too.

        • I should say I knew women who were dykish and men who were effeminate who completely changed over the years and ended up marrying the opposite sex and had decent marriages.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Anne T., I do generally look forward to your posts, as you seem to be more aware of the world around you than many of the other posters on CCD, but “dykish” women, by which I assume you mean masculine women, and effeminate men are not always gay. Surely we can think of examples in our own lives. In fact, you cite the ones you know who ended up marrying the opposite sex and had decent marriages. Clearly neither were gay!

            At the same time, I would actually not dispute that most women who are masculine are bi or lesbian, and most men who are effeminate are probably bi or gay. But in that we all recognize masculine behaviors in girls and feminine behavior in boys VERY early in life, as I am sure you being as connected withn the outside world as you are, should tell us that something about all this is either inborn or infused VERY early on, certainly well before the possibility of a possible moral choice about ones sexual orientation.

          • YFC, what I meant is that their whole demeanor changed from being an effeminate male or an overtly masculine woman to being a very manly acting man and a feminine acting woman. Who knows what their temptations were or even if they would admit to having had them. I am well aware that not all men who practice homosexuality are overtly feminine as some, quite frankly, play the male part and some the female part and some interchange. You really do not know either as everybody is different. I have also known somewhat effeminate men and more masculine acting women who had great marriages with the opposite sex and had many children by them. That is one reason I think it is mostly done out of choice, except for the few who are actually born with deformities.

    • Maryanne Leonard says:

      My not fellow Catholic, you are, most fortunately wrong about two things. There are many men (and women) who have come out of homosexuality by compassionate and professional assistance; it is untrue that gays are all hopeless; it is just becoming politically incorrect to assist them, or to even think there is “anything wrong with” being gay. Unfortunately, there is, and one of the things is that homosexal sex is more deadly than high cholesterol, smoking, drugs and alcohol put together . . . not to mention dirty, filthy, disgusting, and harmful to others. The other thing is that it is good to unload fertilizer on your front lawn, especially when it is processed properly and composted. I would stay away from substances that contain harmful substances for my lawn, just as I would recommend for your body and mind, however. I still see no apologies about your repugnant comments about Pope Benedict, so I refuse to call you my fellow Catholic, since you are not anything remotely like my fellow Catholic by saying the disgusting things you say about our pope.

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        Dear Maryanne -

        It would be helpful if you could please stick to facts. I find none in your response to my post. And I never made a repugnant comment on CCD about Benedict, so if you are looking for an apology, none is forthcoming.

        • YFC, your repugnant comment about the Pope is made by your denial of what he calls “filth” in the Church, by which he means homosexual aggression, advocation, and seduction. In other words, YFC, what you are doing, your apologetics for the gay agenda is the filth which the Pope calls by that name.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Dearest Skai.

            Please do not presume to speak for Maryanne.

            Secondly, I am neither a “homosexual aggressor”, nor a “seducer” as you suggest. Nor did apparently see the post which was regarded as ‘repugnant’.

            And perhaps most importantly, I believe the Holy Father called child sex abuse by priests, which was inflicted against both boys and girls, filth. I’m not aware of any other use of that description.

            So I believe the apology rests with you.

        • Maryanne Leonard says:

          Asking if the pope is homosexual is not an insult? It may not seem so to you, but it is outrageous to almost anyone, other than perhaps someone who thinks asking a question like that of our beloved pope is in good taste. And you are once again wrong in other ways, not my fellow Catholic – my comments above are indeed factual. Sorry if that fact also eludes you.

          • Maryanne Leonard says:

            Not my Fellow Catholic, I am pleased with Skai’s comments in response to you and in defense of my assertion that you owe an apology to us all concerning your offensive remarks about Pope Benedict. I do not license anyone to speak for me, but if I were to do so, I would gladly license Skai, Catherine, Cheeseburger, Kenneth, and a great many others to do, as they speak the kind of common sense and clear thinking worthy of sincere Catholics that I admire at least 95% of the time. If they also agreed with me that men and women are as deserving of respect and equal treatment as anyone else, I would have to up that A that I’m giving them to an A+. I trust their thinking at least as much as I do my own, which is of course subject to error or spiritual imperfections just as much as anyone else’s. However, although you seem to be a nice guy and more reasonable than most, your own thinking is often so appallingly off kilter, making filthy remarks about the pope, for example, that I have to put you in the F+ category. When you are wrong, or your thinking is twisted, it is really, really twisted and serves as further proof of the sad but proper conclusions our beloved and wise Pope Benedict had to come to, that men with disordered sexual obsessions such as your own have no business in the priesthood or in our monasteries. I am sorry to say that, because many a fine priest whom I think would have admitted to being homosexually oriented should be gone from the priesthood, even though it may have served as a sanctuary for him in helping him escape temptations and by following Catholic teachings and refraining from illicit sexual contact. The problem, among many others, is that sometimes a homosexual orientation seems to result in twisted thinking as well as sin, and that is intolerable.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Maryanne – insofar as homosexuality is neither a choice nor a sin, according to Catholic doctrine (CCC), I would not consider it an insult to ask if someone is homosexual. I will concede that a person’s sexual orientation is likely a private matter, so I wouldn’t ordinarily come out and ask someone point blank. But it wouldn’t be an insult to ask, just socially inappropriate. Along the lines of asking a woman if she is pregnant.

        • Btw, YFC, the devil was not created with a gay gene, nor with any other predisposition to sin. St Paul teaches that sodomy is the punishment for sin. The logical outcome of these two theological facts is that there is no predisposition to punishment, none to sodomy. The devil made the choice and so does society; hence the punishments. The only possible rebuttal to this argument is that the Fall affected nature physically. But this rebuttal is short lived, because it admits an unnatural predisposition, one which Jesus intends to resolve and thus which His followers are intended to resovle as well. Grave disorders need to be resolved, YFC. To teach against this objective of Jesus is to propound false doctrine.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Maryanne you are correct……I have been blessed to have met personally good men who left the homosexual lifestyle…….

    • I just checked…there are no homosexuals on my front lawn. But thanks for the warning.

    • “He turns the evening into dawn” (St Clement). Jesus turns the sinner into the saint, the sodomite into the virtuous. St Paul points out that among the Catholics there are some who once were sodomites, some who once were effeminates. Notice St Paul using past tense, which is the mark of salvation.

      • Try to see, YFC, that Jesus took all the sin on his own shoulders on the Cross, and this took it away from all the people. But only some of them followed Him, and most simply kept up their sinful ways.

        • Your Fellow Catholic says:

          Skai, I agree 100% with this statement of yours. That might be a first!

          • YFC, I just finished reading a book. It is called “The Picture of Dorian Gray” by Oscar Wilde. At first I was reluctant to read it since it was by an author with a very troubled past. Nevertheless, since it was in a relative’s library I finished reading it and am glad I did so. I suggest you read it. It contains a very powerful message and has a equally powerful moral to the story.

          • Maryanne Leonard says:

            I think that until the person whom you call YFC, Anne T., changes his mind and decides to stop questioning if our Pope is a homosexual, etc., etc., we should address him as NMFC, in other words, NOT My Fellow Catholic. Our true fellow Catholics do not disparage the leader of our faith even if they have specific concerns that speak of valid problems that need addressing. They may call for a certain action, for example excommunicating a criminal Cardinal for many sins against the most innocent in his congregation, but they do not denigrate him personally, as this person has done, in a dastardly display of homosexual arrogance and disrespectfulness. At least I shall say this: I may not be the best Catholic I’ve ever known, but the homosexual man who dares to call himself “Your Fellow Catholic” is not my fellow Catholic, and one wonders if he can properly be called a Catholic at all, with his hateful and disgusting words against our wonderful Pope Benedict.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Maryanne, wondering if someone is a homosexual or not is not being hateful and disgusting. Your Fellow Catholic stated that being homosexual is neither a choice nor a sin according to Catholic teaching. It is just a state of being. If someone is faithfully celibate and leading a chaste life we really don’t know what that person’s orientation is in many cases. YFC conceded that a person’s sexual orientation is in many cases a private matter. This is in particular true for men in the clergy. I remember when I was 18 a friend of mine showed me a letter in which a friend wrote that “everybody knew that I was gay.” Well back then that was news to me because I don’t know if I actually knew if I was gay at that time.

          • Mark from PA, he didn’t wonder if the Pope was gay. abeca made a comment on the thread about the Pope’s abdication about the curse of homosexuality, implying that it had something to do with why the Pope couldn’t handle the job and YFC asked her if SHE was saying that the Pope was cursed with homosexuality. The comment has taken on a life of its own. You know that old game of Telephone where every time someone tells the story it changes a little until by the end it bears no resemblence to the original.

          • PA, wondering is not the only thing that YFC was doing; he was also attacking God and His Church.

          • Time for prayer!

          • Maryanne Leonard, You have raised a very important point. Many of us come to this site to be informed and hear from other Faithful Catholics. While gay activists have often commented on this site, it appears their frequency and aggresiveness have increased. The likes of TEM, Mark from PA, peter, Your Fellow Catholicy, JonJ and others do not advance the Catholic Faith; rather, they seek to undermine the Faithful by promoting a gay agenda. They are deceivers, they bring scandal and, as you have rightly concluded, they cannot properly be called Catholic. In my opinion, these gay activists have diabolical motives and their comments should be carefully screened by the editor of this site.

          • gravey,

            You are right about the activists. They do have diabolical motives. They are stepping up their aggressiveness. They also go back and report what they say on CCD to diabolical homosexual websites. I have found my comments and those of others discussed by MarkfromPA.

          • Catherine, you need to stay off those diabolical homosexual websites. “If you dance with the devil, you’re bound to get burned.” The devil won’t change, but you will. And you won’t even notice until it’s too late.

          • Maryanne Leonard says:

            k, I’m fairly confident that Catherine will not be tempted to fall into the clutches of these men if she dares to see what is going on in their world of sin and self-degradation. For anyone who might find such websites a near occasion of sin, your advice, unsolicited though it may be, might be greatly helpful and a true Christian kindness to help your fellow Catholic avoid such disturbing near occasions of sin.

            I rather think Catherine a brave soul to look into the sewer and learn more about the enemies of the Church than I could stand to research. She reminds me of a latter-day Joan of Arc in standing up for Catholic values, and even when she’s on fire and pushing the limits a bit hard, it’s pretty hard to fault her reasoning, virtually always in support of goodness, virtue and godliness. She is plenty tough enough to look at these websites without the least gray hair of mine emerging in concern for her eternal soul, I’m quite confident.

          • A little holy water should help a lot. Which reminds me to sprinkle some about the house, since I’ve got non-Catholic yet penitential tenants with wierd pasts residing here. Sometimes people bury stuff in their journey with Christ, because they do not know what to do about such things and so they simply try to stuff it away … but little zombies poke their heads out of their hiding places every once in a while. The literalists cannot fathom what I’m talking about, because I’m using literary form. But I think plenty of readers will see what I’m driving at.

          • Kay, she just wanted to catch them at their own game, and she has. I doubt she posted anything on there, and neither did I years ago. Also, it is a way for them to draw males over to the sites, in order to introduce them to porn as they hope to draw them further and further into the site and later seduce them. You certainly are right about that. I limited how much I watched there and did not go into the really porno areas, and I never go on Lesbian websites, even to see what they are up to.

          • Maryanne Leonard says:

            Good night! That makes me feel sick at my stomach, Catherine. I like Mark as a person and believe him when he says he is a married man with a previously unrealized same sex attraction, that he has chosen to stay true to his Catholic faith and remain with his wife and son, and that he is chaste and teaches catechism to children from a position of living a life of Christian values. To learn that he is quoting you on homosexual websites makes me feel betrayed. I do not imagine that your Catholic values are being held up on those websites and offered as teachable moments to other homosexuals, but rather, are much more likely to be criticized or set for as example as what’s wrong with Catholic thinking. I am wondering if you would be willing to “cut and past” some of those comments from pro-homosexual websites so that we can see how our Catholic faithful are being treated by what I had believed was “one of our own,” and see if once again my trust has been misinvested. Mark takes a fair amount of abuse here but doesn’t attack and makes a real effort to retain his dignity in sharing his assertions with us, one of the reasons I like him. I hate to think he is simultaenously betraying us, but I would like to know. I have been a champion of his because he is a human being and a seemingly faithful and reasonable person afflicted with a disorder he is honestly owning; it reminds me of people who are now sober saying they are alcoholics, and I respect that. But this feels like someone has just slapped me in the face with a week-old fish. Please share what you have told us in your post, if you don’t mind, that is. Thank you, Catherine.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Marianne, I have shared your story (not your name) with others. I admire you for sharing what happened to you and your child. Some people see being pro-choice as being pro-woman but you are living proof that it is not. I think many women are forced into unwanted abortions and the pain of that lives with them forever. People who are not pro-life need to hear your story and understand what an evil thing abortion is. I have been pro-life since I was a child but when I was younger I didn’t realize how much women were victims in this also.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Just yesterday I received in the mail a letter from a close friend of mine who is a Catholic priest. It included an article from Catholic News Service about the Pope speaking about social media. Pope Benedict XVI said, “Social media need to promote more logic, kindness and Christian witness than bluster, star-status and division.” “Given that the online word exposes people to a wider range of opinions and beliefs, people need to accept the existence of these other cultures, be enriched by it, and offer others what they possess that is good, true and beautiful.” The pope is asking everyone “to take responsibility for creating a more humane culture online by being more respectful, honest and contributing to the growth and wellbeing of individuals and society through social networks.” “Dialogue and debate can also flourish and grow when we converse with and take seriously people whose ideas are different from our own.” He said we needed to keep our hearts open to the “kindly light of faith.” I have found this to be true as I have learned much from people whose ideas are different from mine but who also show much kindness. I have actually made friends with some people from different sites and feel that my life has been enriched by this. K and Abeca Christian, Catholics that have different opinions than we do are not “enemies.” I know at times I have been upset here by the dislike and disrespect that some show towards religious sisters, “nuns on the bus” as an example. More progressive sites tend to be more appreciative of the witness and contributions of religious sisters. The other day I read about a woman (Charlotte Keckler) who claimed to be a nun and the bizarre story of her life in a convent. I don’t know if this woman was ever a nun or a Catholic but she traveled around to Protestant churches telling her wild tales of what it was like being a nun.

          • Maryanne Leonard says:

            The pope is right, as usual.

          • ‘Nuns on the Bus’ spoke at the Democratic Convention – a Convention that voted to support ABORTION and Homo-sexual ACTS (gay-marriage).
            AND they SUPPORT the politicians who want these MORTAL Sins for society.
            Most Democrats do NOT love those with homo-sexual temptations. They do not care if they go to HELL.

            “Nuns on the Bus” are heretics and schismatics.
            They should leave the “Catholic” Church, or publically be excommunicated.

            “Nuns on the Bus” do not adhere to the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” in entirety.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Oscar, I don’t think that nuns support abortion. I think nuns are pro-life and care for unborn children, children and the poor. No, the nuns are not heretics and schismatics. I am getting the impression that many people don’t really like religious sisters. Listening to Charlotte Keckler’s story, which I think she made up, made me realize that some people don’t really like nuns.

          • MarkfromPa,

            Dialogue that deceives others is not a blessing or enriching. Mark, Please respond to my Feb. 16, 2013 10:55 am and 11:25 am posts. Would you consider that dialogue enriching?

          • Mark from PA, I am not sure what I did to earn your rebuke but I agree with your post. I am glad the Pope spoke out on it.

          • The trolls are active!

            Wikipedia

            This article is about internet slang. For other uses, see Troll (disambiguation).

            In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: “That was an excellent troll you posted.”

          • Mark from PA says:

            K, I apologize if you thought it was a rebuke. I didn’t mean it that way. I share many of your opinions but don’t see people with different opinions to be diabolical. You mentioned Bilgrimage and I have learned much from this site. Bill is a very spiritual man and a person of great goodness. He has also suffered hurt and mistreatment from some in the Church.

          • Mark from PA, Catherine mentioned Bilgrimage and it didn’t sound diabolical so I went there. It’s a blog! Of course, you know that. When she said she saw your posts on diabolical homosexual websites I thought she meant gay porn or explicit materials. I felt sorry for the blogger because he feels rejected by the Church. As a traditional Catholic, I felt rejected by the Church for many years. I still do, really. I don’t like to write negative things about the Church — and it isn’t the Church; it is the people who attend my parish. It’s a party church. There is a small group of traditonal and Marian catholics who feel very alienated; there is a smattering of social justice catholics who feel rejected, too. The people who have no problem are the people who want to have dinners and raffles and festivals and rummage sales. They are happy as little clams.

          • Christ warns us against hypocrisy, the fear of the world and covetousness. He admonishes all to watch.

            Gospel of Luke,12: 1-5 Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible

            And when great multitudes stood about him, so that they trod one upon another, he began to say to his disciples: Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. [2] For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed: nor hidden, that shall not be known. [3] For whatsoever things you have spoken in darkness, shall be published in the light: and that which you have spoken in the ear in the chambers, shall be preached on the housetops. [4] And I say to you, my friends: Be not afraid of them who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. [5] But I will shew you whom you shall fear: fear ye him, who after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear him.

            Queering the Church website:

            Mark from PA
            December 22, 2012 at 3:51 pm

            “What I find troubling about the Pope’s somewhat veiled attacks on gay people and gay marriage. In doing so he encourages those that hate homosexuality and have a strong dislike for gay people. He reinforces and affirms people in their prejudices. I find this to be very confusing. I think his upbringing in a society which viewed some people as less than fully human contributes to this.”

          • This is cyberstalking.

          • Catherine, I’m so glad we’re on the same side…you’re a fierce defender of the faith! I’ve given up CCD comments (though I’ll be following ) for Lent, as I need to think more and speak less, but I wanted you to know why you won’t be hearing any comments from me for awhile. God bless you all and I pray you all have a meaningful Lent and grow ever closer to God. I pray for you and ask you pray for me.

          • Dana,

            May God bless you too, sweet sister in Christ! Thank you for your prayers!

            “It is love alone that gives worth to all things.” – St. Teresa of Avila

          • Pa — Do you think the Church should be mandated to marry same-sex couples by the will of the State?

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Canisius – Mark from PA can answer for himself, but I don’t know anyone who believes that the Church should be mandated to marry same-sex couples by the will of the State, if by ‘mandated’ you mean ‘required to’.

            In fact, in most or all states where legislation has allowed same sex relationship recognition, Churches are expressly excluded from any requirements to marry same sex couples. But this requirement is hardly necessary: NO church in the US has ever been required to marry ANY couple they didn’t want to, be they of mixed or non-Catholic religions, of mixed races, or of similar genders.

            I for one would staunchly object to any requirement that Churches would be required to marry same sex partners. But they aren’t being asked to by the State.

          • “O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet.”

            Saint Augustine of Hippo (354 – 430)

            Same old stall tactic. There is nothing new under the sun.

          • Your Fellow Catholic — People like you said the same thing about Obamacare, and that churches would not have to pay for the abortions, contraception, voluntary sterilizations, and abortafacient drugs.

            When the Federal Government gets involved in most things — they screw it up. Haven’t you heard of discrimination laws? Prosecution of everyone who does not agree with their lifestyle is what the radical homosexuals want.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Dottie- Why do you believe that your religion should be enshrined into law? How is limiting marriage to those who the Catholic Church says are married any different than Muslims who want to enshrine Sharia law into the law of the land?

            And please be careful when you use monikers like “people like you”. You have no right to push me into a box with terms like that.

          • YFC, faithful Catholics do not view their religion on an equal basis with other religions, and this includes legally or politically. Now, if you’d only study Catholicism instead of whatever nonsense you study, you might find it rewarding.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Well then, Skai, you don’t believe in the First Amendment.

          • YFC, I believe what the Church teaches. The First Amendment calls freedom of speech and religion a “right”. But there is no right to sodomy nor to false religion because God establishes rights and He opposes both false religions and sodomy. Therefore, there can be no right to sodomy nor to false religion. The First Amendment, thus, protects society against both sodomite ideologies and idol worshipers.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Dear Skai-

            Please see the Supreme Court case known as Lawrence v Texas. It found that the Constitution does indeed protect the intimate acts of gay people, including “sodomy”.

            You have a unique view of the first amendment. Idol worshippers would indeed be protected under the first amendment, as repugnant as you and I might find the practice.

          • WITH THE POPE AGAINST HOMOHERESY
            Fr. Dariusz Oko

            “Therefore, the homomafia in the Church must be dealt with in a very professional way – we must act like a prosecutor or an officer in the battlefield. We must be aware that the other party may have become internally degenerated by decades of living in sin and hypocrisy, that they may have gone downhill to the level of ordinary criminals, that they are prepared to do even the worst things, both in words and acts, to defend their interests and position.

            We must be prepared, and not be surprised even if we are insulted with the worst curses, if we are accused of the worst things, for it is “out of the overflow of the heart that the mouth speaks” (cf. Matthew 12:34). Someone who has committed great iniquities for dozens of years is ready to do things at least equally vile to conceal evil and avoid responsibility. It is much easier to lie and say they have not done anything wrong than to beat or kill someone. It is important that we find a possibly large group of people of goodwill to protect us and support what we do[38]. That group should include clergymen, as high in the hierarchy as possible, experts in various fields, archive records specialists, lawyers, policemen, journalists, and as may believers as possible.

            It is good to exchange information, documents, evidence. The global network of the homolobbies and homomafias must be counterbalanced by a network of honest people. An excellent tool that can be used here is the Internet, which makes it possible to create a global community of people concerned about the fate of the Church, who have resolved to oppose homoideology and homoheresy. The more we know, the more we can do. We need to remember that in these matters we are like “sheep sent among wolves”, and so we must be “as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves” (Matthew 10:16). We must have the courage to stand up against evildoers, as Christ had the courage to stand up against the Pharisees of his times. We cannot build our lives on sweet illusions, for only “the truth will set you free” (John 8:32), and that is why “God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of a sound mind” (2 Timothy 1:7).

            The global network of homolobbies and homomafias must be counterbalanced by a global network of decent people.”

          • Mark from PA says:

            Good grief, talk about paranoia. Reading this makes me think that the author looked up old documents complaining about the Jews and just changed the names.

          • That report is not paranoia PA, its Truth… I know you don’t accept it, but the days of the gay mafia are coming to an end.

          • WITH THE POPE AGAINST HOMOHERESY
            Fr. Dariusz Oko

            “We must be prepared, and not be surprised even if we are insulted with the worst curses, if we are accused of the worst things, for it is “out of the overflow of the heart that the mouth speaks” (cf. Matthew 12:34).

          • Mark from PA says:

            Catherine, I read some things by that man. He compares gay people to communists. When did stirring up animosity against people one doesn’t like become a virtue? Whatever happened to loving one’s neighbor as oneself? Where is the compassion of Christ? Some people think it is OK to denigrate gay people, to make fun of them and bully them. I don’t consider that to be virtue.

          • So PA, Tell me in detail now that the cover is being blown of the gay mafia inside the Church you why we should have compassion for a group of gay men who are destroying the Church from within. It is known that these men cover for each other and protect and promote each other. Somehow you just cannot bring yourself to admit what has been going on.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Canisius, I don’t think there is a mafia involved here. But I suppose I must admit that many of the higher ups in our Church cover for each other and protect and promote each other. Some of these men are gay and some are not. I once thought that these men were all holy but sadly many are not. However, by their positions they are called to be holy. They have vowed to follow Christ and to serve Him. They must be more concerned with following Christ and less in their own self advancement. Many are in need of rededicating their lives to Christ.

          • PA, what these posts are calling the gay mafia, the Pope called “filth”.

          • Rick DeLano says:

            There exists a report on the homosexualist cabal which has infested the curia.

            The report will be placed in the hands of the next Pope, and not made available to the College of Cardinals prior to the consistory.

            Let us pray fervently that one of the named traitors of the Catholic faith and of the priestly vow of chastity is not elevated to the Papacy.

            Let there be no mistake: the scourge of homosexualist pederasty shows us that God will not be mocked.

            He has told us that homosexuality is not merely a mortal sin, but is one of the four sins which cry out to heaven.

            May God grant us a Pope who will be strong enough to purge this evil from the curia, from the episcopal conferences, and from the chanceries.

          • Catherine says:

            Rick DeLano,

            Amen!

          • Anonymous says:

            The 3 Cardinals who compiled the secret report are permitted to speak about it with the other Cardinals-but the report itself cannot be read by anyone but the next Pope.

          • Catherine says:

            “Whatever happened to loving one’s neighbor as oneself.” Well Mark after viewing many of your responses on anti-Catholic websites, it looks like that love and compassion went to serve the wrong master. It was also wrong to denigrate the Pope and make fun of people on faithful websites. It was wrong to bully Lifesite News where you admitted that you got banned.

          • Mark from PA says:

            How did I bully LifeSite News, Catherine. I said that the lives of gay people were precious too, whoever read that comment didn’t like it and got me banned.

          • Canisius says:

            Perhaps PA Lifesite news wanted nothing to do with your gay propaganda, good for them…there is one less site that will put up with you….

          • PA, the gay agenda is a far more sinister ideology than communism. Whereas communism seeks a tyranical rule over people, the gay ideology seeks total destruction of creation.

          • Really!

          • Catherine says:

            Catholic Bible 101

            “Remember, satan and his demons are very subtle. He’s not going to come to you as he truly is, but in a very appealing disguise. The person or persons he will acquaint you with will mix lies with the truth to confuse you and to lead you away from the Church and the Eucharist. And it will all seem so right and pleasant to the earthly side of you.

            He will slowly but surely lead you into deeper and deeper sin, just like the frog that gets boiled one degree at a time. However, never forget that humans are like a 3 legged stool, made up of mind, body, and soul. While the mind and the body may go along with satan for a while, because it looks and feels good, one day the feelings of the soul will kick in, and it will feel terrible. There is such a thing as hell on earth, and when the soul finally wakes up and says enough to the devil, the withdrawal pains will be immense. DON’T WAIT FOR THAT TIME. “

          • Um…Catherine, that’s not from the Bible.

          • PA, so now you are likening Jews to sodomites? Bizarre; my experience in the Boy Scouts was shared with Jews and Masons also, but not with sodomites. You should study up, PA, because sodomites are the punishment for sin, whereas Jews and Masons are not.

          • Every scout wasn’t so blessed, Skai. Over 2000 scouts were abused by scoutmasters or assistant scoutmasters. Just Friday there was another $15 million dollar lawsuit against them.

          • PA, “paranoia” is not equated with “fear of the Lord”, as your implication once again subtlely, seductively and slyly tries to get readers and maybe even yourself to believe.

          • Paleobotanist says:

            Yeah…couldn’t agree more…it’s as if you had to be “gay” as a prerequisite before being admitted to the seminary hear in So Cal…I knew,years ago…that the “lavender mafia” element would eventually be challenged by the ‘traditional” Catholic faithful…and the wheel would turn…the revolting behavior of so many priest’s who have scandalized the office of the ministerial priesthood would expose itself…and “truth” would emerge…coupled with a renewal process, that will attract noble, virtuous, humble young men, to pursue the greatest vocation on the planet…the catholic priesthood…”by their fruits you shall recognize them”….

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Good info Catherine

          • SO YFC why should I accept that your perversion be enshrined in law.????…civil war is coming

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Canisius, what you call “perversions” are not enshrined into law. But FREEDOM is, or at least should be.

          • NO YFC not Freedom but License.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            There is no such thing as real freedom without God….without God we are only slaves to sin…..God gives real freedom…

            NOW TELL ME does YOUR freedom give you eternity in heaven? Definitely not!

          • YFC, since the State is already interfering in the practice of religion why do you think they will not interfere in this area…they will use the threat of removing Churches tax exempt status to order them to bless same sex marriages you can bet on it….

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Canisius that is what most homosexual want to happen.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Canisius, no.

          • I’m surprised…..

          • Mark from PA says:

            Canisius, Your Fellow Catholic put it well. We have religious freedom in our country and the Catholic Church should not be forced to marry anyone. A bigger issue at the moment is that fewer opposite sex couples are getting married in the Catholic Church.

          • PA — “We have religious freedom in our country” — with the Obama administration and a growing wave of secular liberalism, not for much longer. We will soon resemble the former Soviet Union, where public displays of faith are outlawed and the state will dictate to the Church according to its will. A persecution is coming, bet on it.

          • Mark from PA says:

            No, Canisius, I don’t think we will resemble the former Soviet Union. Even in Russia things are changing and the Orthodox Church there is growing in influence. There will be no persecution here our Constitution protects us.

          • PA, people protect themselves, not pieces of paper with words on them. Constitutional principles can only protect anyone if the people hold to them.

          • Really PA? Here in NY state, Gov. Cuomo has proposed an abortion bill which will strip Catholic hospitals from a conscience clause, ie they will be forced BY LAW to perform abortions. This is just the start. When the persecution starts, you will have to choose whose side you will be on — Christ and His Church or the forces of secular liberalism and sodomy.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Well, Canisius, if he did that, Cardinal Dolan better have a little talk with him.

          • PA, it is the Dolans of the Church who have surrendered to the world, the flesh and the devil … and you place your worshipful faith in these men.

          • If we have religious freedom, why are over 40 Christian organizations suing the Federal Government over Obamacare, and his Executive Orders?

          • PA, the Communists grabbed the guns and the Russians fell under tyranny. The English grabbed the guns and the Irish starved to death. Mao grabbed the guns and China became tyrannical. Castro grabbed the guns and Cuba became a police state. Long ago, the British were under a tyranny until the rise of the yeoman class, those who learned to wield a weapon that stopped the govt from lording it over the people … the long bow. The American colonies manufactured the long rifle and thus the citizens were able to cast off the British tyranny. Same a century later in the wild west, where the six gun popped up and saved civilization from local tyrants. All these popular weapons kept tyranny at bay … now the usa government wants to grab all the popular weapons and ammo … for no reason whatsoever. Instead of hammering down bad guys the developing tyrannical usa govt is trying to hammer down honest law abiding citizens. The means of this gun grabbing is deceit and lies.

          • PA, this is one of the reasons the Pope tried to clean out the “filth” from the Church … but sadly he was stopped by that contingency that has infiltrated the Vatican and its octopus like tentacles. The reason the Pope had to publically call the bishops to holiness is because this call was stopped in the normal pathways through the hierarchy. These corrupt bishops are violating what Jesus said about letting His faithful “little ones” come to Him and not be shut off by the bishops. (jon, you can spring for this one by insisting I support my claim with chapter and verse … or you can actually read the Bible for yourself and see; it might be quicker for you to do that since I’ve got other matters to deal with.)

          • Canisius, they do not see it coming, but go for it. They remind me of the fools that appear in Shakespeare plays.

          • Mark from PA says:

            K, he feels that he was unfairly fired from his job as a theologian at a Catholic University. He still has a hard time understanding how supposedly Christian people could be so unChristian. Bill is an excellent writer and even though we may not agree on some things, I have learned from his story. I think we learn much by listening to the stories of others. Try not to feel rejected by the Church, K. Try to get involved in activities that nurture your spirit. That is OK if fund-raising isn’t your thing. I am more interested in religious activities but do volunteer every year at our parish festival. I do it to give back to my parish.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Speaking of Bilgrimage, K (& Catherine too), this is one of today’s commentaries, “Cardinal Mahony Ready to Forgive Victims of Abuse.” Sigh! This has also been adequately covered here.

          • K, there were some homosexual sites out there that used saint’s names as a cover and did contain some very graphic stuff. I accidentally came across two of them, one probably in the U.S. and one probably in England. At least one of them was later taken off when I went back just to see if it was there. Even the opening writings were graphic and gave one the impression there was porn further in the sites, so I did not go any farther into the website. It was in the Catholic or local public news in our area many years ago that some dissident priests were posting some horrible things online, and they were taken off. You can imagine who some of those priests were — probably the very same ones who molested the under aged. Most likely the sites were taken off because they caught them and put them in jail.

          • Anne T. that’s more like what I thought Catherine was talking about. But she seems to be referring to blogs that gay Catholics or former Catholics have online. Now, in terms of them being diabolical, St. Thomas said that all temptations come from one of three sources — the devil, the flesh, and the world. Temptations from the flesh are those that come from seeking sensual pleasure. Temptations from the world seduce us with vanity or with fear of misfortune. Temptations from the devil are marked by rebellion against God or a refusal to submit to Him. The same sin can have multiple temptations.

          • And it is up to each of us to AVOID the NEAR OCCASION of SIN.

          • “St. Thomas said that all temptations come from one of three sources — the devil, the flesh, and the world.” k, many people have said this. I often use this quote from Jesus found in the Gospel.

          • MarkfromPa,

            What kindness were you demonstrating when you showed how pleased you were to report this on a homosexual website? LifeSite News does very fine work in defending the unborn that you claim to care about. Is this the humane treatment of another social media group or is it the pestering and bullying harassment to a fine organization that does not deserve to be told that they do not care about people.

            Davenport Mark • a month ago


            More good information. Have to share with you. I posted a comment on LifeSiteNews. I said that all life is precious, even the lives of gay people. I have been banned from making any future comments there. I guess some lives are important and others are not. Thanks for putting up with my comments. (Too many sometimes.)

          • Thanks for posting that. Something else fishy from that anti-Catholic website.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            I tend to disagree with you PA.

          • Maryanne Leonard says:

            Mark, thank you for telling me this. I kept my story to myself for years, other than talking about it with my husband and therapists, as well as friends who also happen to be therapists, and my priest and friend who helped me reconcile with the Church. There is more to this story than I have told, and it would not make the Church look good, so I am still working on having the courage to share it.

            But I have no problem with your having shared my story with people on other sites. It took me 50 years to tell it publicly, and I believe it needs to be told, although I am still mulling over why I feel that and what the possible effects will be if I tell it all. Of course, they will not be uniform, but since people are all different and have strong views on such things, I am a bit fearful of the negative reactors or of harm to the Church or to myself. I need more strength physically and emotionally, not to mention spiritually, than I have. But the fact that you have chosen to pass it on, and for good reasons, takes this challenge out of my hands, and that is probably a good thing if it serves in any way to help the cause of the innocent, or fellow travelers such as yourself who also are pro-life.

            You are right, it is very possible indeed to believe both in equal rights and respect for women, and equal rights to life for unborn children. There is a group called Feminists for Life which advertises on this site which takes the position that abortion is bad for women. It sure as heck has been bad for me, but then again it was forced on me. It has been a torment for 50 years.

            I can’t tell whether it has been easier for me because I am not burdened by guilt since I did all I could to prevent the abortion even after I was literally kidnapped, straight-jacketed and locked up in the mental ward after being tricked into being delivered to a hospital, thinking I was going to San Francisco to go shopping with my mom, or whether it is easier on women who didn’t want their children, chose to have them murdered, and later are sorry. Does not wanting them help them feel better to be rid of the child, at least for a few years? I can’t understand, so I can’t really know how it is for them, but I do feel sorry for anyone who anguishes for any reason, including homosexuals or any other person who is at odds with what they have done that has disconnected them from God.

            All I know is I am still overwhelmingly horrified by the mere thought of what happened to me, invariably followed by anguishing still, after all these years, to the point of sobbing still sometimes for my poor, precious, murdered child. I am convinced that women are blessed to be trusted with a child’s life within them, and that it does not serve women, men or children for a woman to feel entitled to murder any child of God.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Maryanne, thank you for your comments. I am glad that it does not bother you that I told your story. As I said I did not mention your name. I think it is important for people to understand that abortion is an act of violence, it not only does violence to the child but also does violence to the woman. So many people claim to be pro-woman but when it comes to women being exploited by the abortion industry they are silent. It seems to me that you are a very gifted woman and to have overcome such tragedy makes you an amazing person. I realize how difficult it must be to share such tragedy and pain but you have touched many lives with your story and your witness.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Catherine thank you for letting us know what the enemy is doing. Keep them closer as they say….disgusting as it may be, but it’s good to know what the enemy is up to. God bless you dear soul!

          • One of the best places for these Catholic blogs to end up is the sodomite sites … Jesus is the light of the world, and shines into the darkness. The Gospel goes into every corner of the world.

          • I think we all knew this, Catherine, but just did not want to get on those sites, but I am thankful you have done so. Several years ago, I got on the website of “The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence”, and they had downloaded our actual postings to their sites, but I did not want to go any further into their despicable website, but I do know they stopped downloading our site for awhile, or put it further in where they knew we did not want to go. Yes, I have always felt that Mark PA goes on those other sites, tells them what we say, so he can drag them over here just to annoy us. The other Mark, who had homosexual temptations but got out of the lifestyle, was right when he told us to ignore them and just stop arguing with them, so did St. Paul. Some of the other editors used to quote the catechsim when they got out of line and flat out told them they were wrong.

          • Anne T.,

            I also remember Mark F’s words. Mark F.’s posts were so very accurate in his portrayal of the difficult trial of pulling oneself out of the sinful homosexual lifestyle. Mark F. turned to God and to the Blessed Mother and it certainly showed. Mark F. was the very first homosexual that I had ever heard speak the truth with such eloquence, honesty and knowledge about the Catholic faith. It was absolutely re*mark*able not to make a pun! Anne, I remember before the scandals broke I was praying and asking God to permit someone like Mark F. to speak out in truth and in love. When Mark F. started to post on CCD it seemed like an answer to prayer. It has to be extremely difficult to open up and share such personal information in an attempt to help others and then consistently be scoffed at and take the criticisms of those who are not interested in hearing the truth.

            (Douay-Rheims)

            John 15:15
            I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends. because all things, whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you.
            Read John 15:15 in contextView in parallelCompare Translations
            John 15:20

            John 15:20 Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.

            I believe one of the other posters made the very truthful comment that there is really no need for anyone to be flaunting one’s sexual preference and this is certainly true if someone is truly interested in the salvation of their own soul. Catholic Church teaching applies to all mankind to all sinners without distinction but due to Original sin the father of lies has cleverly used this particular cross as a clever vehicle or societal inroad to attack Christ. Anne, Imagine the grace that God will bestow on those who consistently reach out in trust to avoid this temptation. There is not one vice or any sin that is worth risking or losing your eternity. It is in the committing of all sinful acts that we attack and rebel against Christ. You either believe that or you don’t or you do believe it and you sit on the fence and roll the dice on losing your own eternity through obstinate and willful rebellion.

            (cont.)

          • Anne T.

            I wanted to let you know how I came across these posts. I was Googling up an Archbishop’s name that CCD was doing a story on and I came across a website that looked like it had an article about Archbishop Sartain. I truly thought it was a faithful website until I started to read the articles. Anne, I had no idea that these websites were even out there. I had never visited or quite frankly even thought about it. Once I started to recognize familiar names I was actually completely surprised. It was not my intention to “beat them at their own game” but I discovered the dual posting that was taking place, It actually made me think that it was no simple accident. Anne, I had absolutely no idea that there were so many websites that consider themselves as faithful while defying their Redeemer. Consider the entire blogosphere of websites and what were the chances of my stumbling upon this particular evidence which helps to clarify any confusion and distortions that have taken place. It is diabolical disorientation aimed at mocking Christ’s true Church on earth. Should we have compassion for each and every person who has been deceived so cruelly? The answer is yes but no one can make or force anyone to do something without that person wanting to first interiorly reflect and change themselves with the merciful help of Almighty God, such as the excellent example of St. Augustine.

            Anne T, I know that you realize this, everyone is welcome in the Catholic Church. The distorting and justifying of many different sinful acts has gone on since the beginning of time and the Catholic Church has prevailed and will prevail. It is obstinate sinners who continually refuse God’s truth as revealed through the teaching Magisterium of his Church on earth who do not prevail if they remain locked in blindness and unrepentant.

            Refugium Peccatorum – Ora Pro Nobis

            “This meditation is very encouraging and consoling for us, poor sinners. Mary is our spiritual mother and our refuge given to us by her Divine Son while He was dying on the Cross: “Behold, your mother!” (John 19:27)

            MARY, being the Mother of our Redeemer, you receive sinners with loving kindness, and you do all you can to save them from damnation. What sacrifices you made for us during your earthly life! For thirty-three years—from the time you laid the newborn Savior in the crib of Bethlehem to the day when you stood beneath the cross on Calvary and watched Him die—you suffered a constant martyrdom, for the sword of sorrow continually pierced your soul. But you did not complain. You bore all these sufferings with patience because you knew that the salvation of men was to be brought about in this manner. You even willingly sacrificed Jesus that the sinful human race might be redeemed.

            It is impossible for you not to have mercy on sinners. Now that you are in heaven, where you no longer have to make any sacrifices for their salvation, you cannot look on quietly and see how all that you and your divine Son have endured remains without fruit, and how those souls perish on whose account your Son shed His blood and you became the Mother of Sorrows. To the end of the world you will never cease to have mercy on sinners and to intercede for their salvation.”

          • Catherine, I understand how one can accidentally come upon such sites. I, too, have looked up some saint’s name twice, and innocently found myself on websites that were nothing but fronts for dissidents practicing homosexuality. I got off of them quickly, and did not go further into the sites. I do not know if such horrible sites can be reported and taken off if they contain porn, but the devil is certainly out there trying to trap innocents into immorality.

          • The more swordplay, the sharper the skills. No pain, no gain.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            gravey this I so agree…I guess we expect more from a Catholic website! Good point you make Gravey! God bless you!

          • Maryanne Leonard, I do not plan on even reading any of their pro-sodomy posts any more, let alone answering their questions and using the names they pick. The editors used to tell these people when they were writing against Church teaching, but that does not happen any more. I do not go on homosexual or Lesbian websites and annoy them, so why do they come on here and spout their immoral anti-Catholic teachings? And they need not answer me because I am not even going to read it any more. I will only discuss things with those who are faithful to Church teaching.

          • Anne T., the sodomites come to Catholic sites because their twisted nature is to attack God and His Church. Apocalypse 12, the Woman with Child being chased by the Dragon.

          • Anne T., could you clue us in on Oscar Wilde? Was he a former sodomite or did his days end as a sodomite?

          • Maryanne Leonard says:

            Skai, he was a very insightful man who married a woman but could not/did not stop his addiction to having sex with men. He was prosecuted and jailed for this in England and was of course divorced, and afterward became essentially enraptured by a young man with whom he lived but who was diffident about him and eventually left him. He spent most of the rest of his days as a sadder but wiser, bitter and lonely old homosexual in exile . . . all the while writing brillianting in a variety of venues.

            The beauty part is that toward the end of his years he ultimately realized the error of his ways, abandoned homosexuality, and he was converted by a priest dedicated to helping him save his eternal soul. He ended his days loving the Lord.

          • Back in my youthful college days, I read Lord Byron’s material until I realized he was sex compromised. That was when I began to connect what was written with the author: This irked one of my professors to no end, who couldn’t stand literary analysis that reached into the author’s personal life. I know from observation that sodomy so distorts the mind that even those who turn away from it are plagued by its impulses for decades. We need holy priests who can live the Sacraments that they are ministering … that is the solution, the healing, the glory of Jesus Christ instead of the soothsaying clowns that are so popular today. WWSPS? (What would St Pio say?) Would he tell someone to go and find soothing words, or would he impute a penance that would actually serve the penitent in his effort to escape the effects of the past sins?

          • Skai, I read somewhere that he might have converted in the latter years to the Church, but a friend recently told me that he wrote the book before he was accused and convicted of having molested an under-aged boy or teen, and he sued the father for defamation of character, and the father brought in male prostitutes who said he had used their services. His reputation was thus destroyed and he went to jail. What is ironic if the latter is so, is that the moral to his story is that those who live decadent lives and destroy the lives of others by their seduction end up in a horrible death. The story is somewhat a science fiction or fantasy. You can probably find the truth about Oscar Wilde on line and a critique of the book. One good thing about the story is that it does not go into lewd detail about the experiences of Dorian Gray, but just implies that he has done terrible things with people and ruined their lives in the process. I would not have read the book if it had contained vulgar and lurid sections. At least the version my relative had did not. She bought it on clearance not knowing too much about the author, but ended up not liking it after reading a few pages. If you want to read it, I suggest you get it at a public library.

          • Skai, Wikipedia gives a good critique of the book, “The Picture of Dorian Gray”. Evidently, the publishers censored the book several times and made Oscar Wilde make changes to it before they would even publish it, so evidently his bad behavior had started even then. I think this was in 1945 if I remember the date correctly.

          • Yes, it is a first, YFC, since Jesus is the first and also the last, the alpha and the omega. In Jesus Christ all things are new, which is to say also that all things are first. So it is great to find that you recognize that.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Yes Skai it takes their participation on their part to turn way from those grievous sins. At some point a person has to get to a place where it leads them to a contrite heart and only our Lord knows what it would take to convert hearts for him.

        That is where our prayers can be helpful, we plead to our Lord for the conversion of all sinners including our own.

    • YFC, Ex-gays in this country are so so terribly hated and scorned by the gay community and gay advocacy groups. The ex-gays are hated because their conversion to heterosexuality goes against everything the gay movement has been trying to brainwash society with — and that is that gays are born that way, sexuality can’t be changed, etc. Over the years LGBT groups have tried everything in their power to suppress testimonies of ex-gays. The LGBT movement doesn’t want society to know that change is possible and that it does happen.

      Search pfox — Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays & Gays.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Loraine you are correct…a few friends of mine who left the gay lifestyle have received many death threats, including and not limited to property was vandalized etc etc….I wish I can name them but I can name one that actually has become a Christian and was in the public eye in the past, he caught aids and that is when his conversion began….a lot of people knew who James H was. God bless him. I have not heard from him in a long while but he is always in my thoughts for his bravery. He use to go to the San Diego city council and speak up against gay agenda driven promotions. Numerous years ago when I use to try to reach out to homosexuals, they had a special event at First Assembly church of God in San Diego…He spoke there and they also had a strong pro life message as well…I was part of the Concerned Women for America organization back then.

    • Those with same-sex attraction can get to Heaven just like everyone else who have specific temptations.

      It is necessary to avoid the near occasion of sin – regarding those specific temptations.

  13. Ted Shiffer says:

    The biggest boost to the so-called “gay rights” movement came from the American Psychological Assn. They declared that homosexuality was neither a disorder or disease. The reason is obviously because they were unable to cure it or treat it effectively using standard techniques.

    So, as many people do when faced with a difficult problem, they declared that it was no longer a problem at all. Hence the moves toward convincing you and me of the lie of the “normality” of homosexual “marriage” and their lifestyle.

    Goebbels (and Obama) – the Big Lie. Seems to work, doesn’t it?

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      Ted Shiffer:

      I agree that a huge moment in the LGBT movement was that exact decision by APA. But I believe you have their reasoning a little bit fuzzy. It wasn’t so much that they couldn’t “cure” it, but rather they saw that LGBT folk who are otherwise given the same advantages in life, and protected from the same disadvantages everyone is protected from that they can lead fulfilling lives with respect to their employment, their leisure lives, their sexual lives, and even their spiritual lives.

      But your nasty equation of Obama (and by reference, gays) with Nazis is reprehensible.

      • OH NO YFC is offended call the thought police…..

      • “Your Fellow Catholic,” you have proven that you are not “Catholic.”

        There is NO sexual life outside of marriage between one man and one woman. ALL others are called to Chastity.

        Adultery, fornication, homosexual acts, masturbation, and pornography are all MORTAL SINS.

        Human beings have a free will and can say “NO” to sin.

    • That move by the American Psychological Ass. is their coming out statement.

    • Maryanne Leonard says:

      If you read the history of this decision, it was institigated by a man who headed the APA at the time and was, according to a book written by his now adult daughter, a sort of “closet homosexual” who for years held meetings in his home with other homosexual men in the APA, and they worked together to pull this off, to the continuing consternation of most of the members of the APA both then and today, though less so today than before.

      It has proven impossible to overturn this change despite most psychologists quietly continuing to disagree with the stance that declares homosexuality not to be evidence of mental illness. For proof of that in the lay person’s value system, you need only talk to most homosexuals and without training you can independently conclude that there is a link between homosexuality and psychological distress. How much is inate, related to the proclivity for shallow and superficial sexual contacts which carry their own psychological price, related to social disdain, familial disappointment, disdain or outright hostility, the countless medical costs of homosexual activity, etc., etc., is hard to say.

      One thing is for sure, however; not all homosexuals are psychologically unbalanced, despite suffering all the pressures they do, including often feeling they must live a lie. Homosexuality is on a continuum, and not an either/or situation in many cases also; although most people who identify as bisexual are more accurately identified as primarily homosexual, and abou 3 times as many people who self-identify as homosexuals engage in homosexual activity.

      As a result of all of the above, working with homosexuals and making scientific studies of them is an extremely complicated area, and results of research are easily challenged.

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        Maryanne – You supply lots of assertions here, but no sources. Where does one read fact-based histories of your assertions?

        There are now dozens of medical organizations that have taken similar positions as the APA, and few if any independent (as in – not organized solely to be homophobic) have contrary positions. So do ALL of these medical organizations have “sort of closeted” homosexuals meeting in their homes to the “consternation” of their members, who are somehow forced to ignore the innate psychological distress of their orientation?

        I AGREE with you that LGBT people often have psychological “distress”…related to people who go out of their way to show their disdain for minority sexual orientations. This disdain has lethal consequences. We see it every day in suicides by LGBT people who sometimes conclude that they will never be treated civilly by society. We see it in the 40% of homeless youth who are LGBT – kicked out of their homes because of the disdain of their parents. We see it in the enormous numbers of bullying incidencts, and hate crimes against LGBT people. Yes, there is psychological distress. So let’s remove the drivers of that distress: the inability of some people to treat LGBT people as human beings and children of God.

        • Maryanne Leonard says:

          For the history of how the APA was led to the decision to remove homosexuality from their list of mental disorders, you can Google a long interview by NPR of a woman who wrote a tell-all book about her homosexual father (married but unfaithful to his wife, cheating with other homosexuals) who was the person behind the change. When you find the interview, you can Google the book she wrote, and many others can be found on the topic.

          I am well acquainted with a great variety of well-respected psychologists, both clinical and research, due to my years of working at a prominent behavioral sciences “think tank” on Stanford University land and staffed by a goodly number of research psychologists. I also helped operate the research library there at times, and I have read hundreds of books on psychological matters and have a few hundred more on my own personal library shelves which I have scanned or plan to read.

          I am also blessed to have many friends who are clinical mental health practitioners. I have studied psychology and attended as a member, or sometimes as a guest, a great many meetings around the country of professional conferences exploring various aspects of mental illness, including same sex attraction.

          I have heard many private comments, not meant for publication usually, from friends and professional contacts in the healing professions, and I have never ever heard an off-the-record comment by such people that indicated private thoughts in line with the public positions of the APA and many other professional organizations.

          I am sure you know it is now politically incorrect to profess opinions that in any way denigrate homosexuality. As a result, you may live in something of an insulated bubble regarding what most people, including mental health professionals, think about homosexuals in relation to their mental health and practices. A few medical doctors of my acquaintance deplore homosexuality in the most extreme terms due to its devastating physical and mental effects, entirely avoidable, just as with smoking and drug addiction or failing to care for oneself in a myriad of other ways.

          I agree with you that homosexuals, even the actively practicing, the mentally ill, and/or actively anti-Catholic ones, are to be treated with equal dignity and respect, as it is only Christian to do so. What we think of their private and too oftentimes public behavior is usually shared privately among ourselves, or on forums such as this, on which homosexuals tend to infiltrate and attack commentors, to no avail.

          It is a waste of their time and a tremendous irritant which only serves to make it harder to put up with homosexuals in general, who tend to be aggressive and angry and usually behave and think in a most unCatholic manner.

          I am always happy when I find that some homosexuals try hard to be good Christians, but remember, that includes refraining from the sins with which they are obsessed, and that seems to be where most homosexuals fail horribly. We almost can’t hear the acive homosexuals because of our overpowering resentment at their aggressively taking over our websites, our schools, our social norms, and our children’s minds. We see homosexuality as a cancer on our society. If God wanted people to be homosexuals, he would have made it possible for them to reproduce; instead, he did just the contrary. As a general rule, only the mentally disturbed seek homosexual sex, and most homosexual sexual conquests are superficial, fleeting, and even anonymous. This is degrading to the human mind, body and soul and our children need to be protected from homosexual predators.

        • Those who have temptations should NOT wear those temptations on their public sleeves for ALL to know and see.
          It only draws others with the same temptations to them.
          And then puts them all in the ‘near occasion of sin’.

          In most cases, people do not know that someone has homo-sexual temptations unless the person tells them or tells another who spreads gossip.

          We all have temptations of one kind or another.
          Same-sex attraction is merely one kind of temptation.

          Homo-sexual acts, adultary, fornication, masterbation, pornography are all MORTAL SINS.
          Committing these mortal sins CAN send a Soul to Hell for Eternity. God gave all humans a free will.

          For society to approve of any of these mortal sins,
          or for a citizen to vote for a politician who promotes any of these mortal sins, the voter becomes a remote participant in the sin.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Ted you are correct!

  14. Mark from PA says:

    What Father Perozich said here made me think. He states that scouts who are homosexual scandalize other scouts and encourage them to abandon the moral life. He feels that other scouts need protection from gay scouts. He adds, “particularly if he sees the other boys as potential sex partners.” I disagree with what he has said. He seems to imply that if a boy is gay then he is also immoral. He has stereotypical views of gay kids in that they are dangerous because they are mostly interested in other boys as sex partners. I find this to be offensive. It seems that Father Perozich thinks that the ban of gay boys from the scouts is a good thing and these boys deserve to be excluded because of who they are. So gay boys have no place in scouting. Father Perozich mentions other things, does he think that straight boys who have had sexual experiences, have viewed porn or have engaged in masturbation should also be banned from the scouts or are only gay boys held to these standards.

    • Mark, if one announces to the whole world that that one is sexually attracted to ones own sex, what does one expect others to believe. Get real!

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        I expect others to behave with charity and love. Is that so much to ask of a Christian?

        • YFC when it comes to sodomites yes it is

        • Mary Ann Leonard, you have hit the nail right on the head. All my friends both men and women think exactly as you have said. In front of homosexuals or Lesbians they avoid the subject or just pretend that they MIGHT agree because they just don’t want to argue continually about it or have some mentally deranged person slash their tires, but privately we think exactly as you said, including doctors and healthcare providers. They “beat” Surgeon General Koop over the head trying to get him to say that homosexual acts were all right and healthy, but because they did not listen, it backfired on them and brought in the AIDS epidemic. He was an expert on the urinary and anal tracts, too, and he and others had to repair much of the damage many did to their bodies, but some would not listen.

      • Mark PA, all Fr. Perozich is saying is that you would not put boys who are attracted to girls or women in with the Girl Scouts, now would you? On the other hand, it makes no sense to put these same boys in with other boys who openly claim they are attracted to boys. It is the same principle as the first scenario. It makes no sense to put the two together by putting them in places that are an occasion of sin.

        • Mark from PA says:

          Anne T, the Girl Scouts are for girls. Gay boys should be allowed in the Boy Scouts because they are boys. I think some people have the mistaken idea that because a guy is gay that he isn’t a “real man.” A lot of gay boys are gay in a passive sense so they are certainly no threat to other boys. A lot of these kids are not even open about their orientations so how does one find out who they are so they can be expelled? The best answer is not to discriminate in the first place. Allowing gay boys in the Boy Scouts is not the same thing as allowing boys in the Girl Scouts.

    • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

      Ted,

      You only gave part of the story. The American Psychological Assn, was submitted to horrendous pressure from sodomite infitrators into their ranks and from outside forces. I know Psychiatrist that will privately tell your that. Yes, in this case the Big Lie has worked!

      God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
      Kenneth M. Fisher

  15. Father Perozich, I understand where you stand — the Boy Scouts should not change their policy. But some of your sentences are unclear. You seem to be saying that it is OK to have gays in the scouts as long as they do not identify themselves as gay. I think you mean self-identify rather than “coming out.’ You say people should not identify themselves by their temptations but then you identify them by their temptations. You say they need the guidence of mature men but also that other scouts would need to be protected from them. Maybe some of this article got edited and it ended up being disjointed because of that.

    • k, how are you going to discern if a scout leader is gay, unless he tells you, or unless it is obvious? Sodomites can be discerned from their subtle behavior cues. Some of them apparently are extremely clever in hiding it though, but you can draw them out.

      • He seems to be talking about scouts, not leaders. It is a confusing piece, but he seems to be saying that gay boys could use the scouts but its not worth the risk of having them around straight boys. Questioning youth are OK, though. Maybe closeted, too?

        • But he does say that leaders who are not chaste or who self-identify as gay should not be leaders. But that’s not the part that is confusing. (My personal standards are higher than his.)

  16. Soooo — I’m in the grocery store checkout and there’s a magazine that says “That thing that guys are asking for — Should you do it?” So, I got on the website and yes, it is the “s” word. It says 45% of hetersexual couples do it. It gives tips in case you want to try it. No warnings about the health issues involved in it. Commentors on the website indicated that men who use porn think this is normal.

  17. JonJ, you did a fairly good job of defending soldiers, and in full accord with what Jesus says in the Gospel. I’m amazed at your blog on this, JonJ.

  18. Hey, did you know that this is Random Acts of Kindness week?

  19. I agree… bloggers like YFC, Jon J and some others are on this thread and Catholic blog, not only to undermine the Catholic faith, but to contemptuously poison “traditional” catholic thinkers into endorsing this shameful lifestyle… those who indulge in this perversion are committing a grave mortal sin… “By their fruit you shall recognize them”. Gospel of St. Matthew Chapter 7: 15-20

  20. Barramundi says:

    There is, moreover, a profound sterility in homosexual relationships, due in large part because there are no transcendent goals, and no family history…. what the homosexual needs is to integrate one’s bodily desires into a purpose beyond self gratification …this means a conscious and free sublimation of sexual desire into some form of service for the community… In this way, one can avoid the psychological divisions that are found in so many homosexuals who find themselves doing what they do not wish to do.

    There are additional arguments of a more traditional kind, for example… insofar as homosexual acts do exclude all possibility of the procreation of life, they do not fulfill as essential purpose of human sexuality. Homosexuality and its gravely disordered acts lack an indispensable finality… heterosexual intercourse is therefore directly related to the family. For this reason the Church has taught consistently that the material act be open to procreation and the rearing of children. In no way does the homosexual act compare with the unitive and procreative act of marriage.

  21. “Straight talk from Escondido’s Father Perozich” — nice play on words, as he was talking about gay versus straight.

  22. Skai, I am in total agreement with the following statement you posted above; “One of the best places for these Catholic blogs to end up is the sodomite sites … Jesus is the light of the world, and shines into the darkness. The Gospel goes into every corner of the world.”

    While I agree that their goal for posting our comments on their sites is to give them more practice in polishing their talking points against us, the truth is, as you pointed out, that the Truth is being posted on those sites. And in the end, the Truth wins! Actually, the Truth has already won the victory for us on the cross! Jesus IS the Way, the Truth and the Life. He IS the Light of the World! Having the Truth there, along with praying for the healing of those who suffer from homosexuality will only benefit Our Lord, who desires that none of His children are lost.

    And yes, having the Sodomites post here sharpens our skills as well! We are the Church Militant!

    • If you use the word “sodomite” your skills are not very sharp.

      • Maryanne Leonard says:

        This word “sodomite” communicates precisely. It is found in the Bible. Every word and any word in the Bible is good to know and use.

        If you feel homosexuality is being disdained when the word “sodomite” is used here and in the Bible, you are right. I am sorry if that pains you, but the word is both legitimate and useful and has been used on this forum in a consistently correct manner.

        It does not mean that homosexuals are necessarily hated as individuals, even though most of us feel overwhelming revulsion and disgust when we learn of individual men who self-identify as such. We are horrified and revolted by the very thought of their disgusting behavior, but we also realize with sorrow and compassion that these are our fellow human beings, tragically caught up in a horrific, filthy, degrading and vile attraction to which they usually choose to give in, thereby subjecting themselves to being used, diseased, shamed and rejected and perhaps even risking death! I cannot believe that anyone sane and normal would risk such devastating consequences and can only conclude that these people must be thrilled by filth, degradation, high risk behavior, and almost guaranteed ill health, shame and rejection from within their own twisted groups and from the larger society without.

        Practicing sodomites who are also practicing Catholics know that they are sinning, though they may deny it, and separating themselves from God. They are living in sin without repentance and are not worthy of taking communion. They know that right-thinking Catholics denounce homosexual activities and yet care for individual homosexuals and pray for the salvation of the precious souls of these sinners. We actually fervently wish them well, and we hope and pray for their release from this compulsion. We’d like to see a true cleansing and conversion to happier, healthier lives.

        But first we must try not to vomit when we think of what they are doing to their bodies, gather our senses about us, and we are flooded with feeling an overpowering sensation of disbelief, horror and hope for the demented soul to turn away from sin and turn to God. A good Catholic will want you to read, study and take the Bible to heart.

        “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore glorify God in your body.” 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

        • Mark from PA says:

          Marianne, “overwhelming revulsion and disgust”? “Horrific, filthy, degrading and vile attraction?” I think you truly misjudge people here. We are human beings, not animals. Referring to the attraction that people have for other people in such terms is pretty awful and dehumanizing. I find myself attracted to the goodness that I see in other people. Reducing such feelings to terms such as you use here strips people of their very humanity.

        • As a marriage protection advocate, I guarantee you that language such as “sodomite” causes people to favor gay rights, including same sex marriage laws. People who use the word “sodomite” appear bigoted, stupid and mean. Many people who did not care one way or the other are being pulled to the gay rights cause simply because the LGBT persons are more civil and the pro-marriage arguments are often marred by such rude behavior.

  23. Maryanne Leonard,

    The new influx of even more aggressive posters is a compliment to California Catholic Daily. The devil never sleeps.

    CCD Article True peace in the world requires end of abortion and gay marriage.

    Catherine says:
    December 17, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    “Unborn babies feel pain at 9 weeks and 3 days.” Thank you Ann Marie. Mark from PA still voted for a man who ignored that. A *YES* vote for Obama was tantamount to firing a gun aimed directly at the unborn.

    God knows the motives of those who chose to look the other way while they selectively fired their own *YES VOTE* weapon of mass destruction.

    On the “bilgrimage blogspot,” in a post regarding gun control following the Sandy Hook tragedy, a commenter who identified himself as Mark Davenport wrote:

    “Supporting gun control on a Catholic site, got me this response,

    “‘Unborn babies feel pain at 9 weeks and 3 days. Mark still voted for a man who ignored that. A YES vote for Obama was tantamount to firing a gun aimed directly at the unborn. God knows the motives of those who choose to look the other way while they fired their own YES VOTE weapon of mass destruction.’ I didn’t actually mention who I voted for in November but 4 years ago I did say that I supported Obama. While it is true that unborn babies feel pain the evil of abortion isn’t that point when discussing the murder of 26 innocents at a school.”

    In a reply to that comment on the same blogsite, William D. Lindsey wrote:

    “This is the mentality that absolutely floors me, Mark–the mentality you’re encountering at that Catholic site. This is why I have become convinced that a huge percentage of Catholics and evangelicals who call themselves pro-life are actually the opposite. I personally think that the pro-life movement has turned into something dangerous and almost demonic, since it permits people to imagine they are morally superior when they are espousing morally reprehensible positions on a wide range of life issues.”

    • That’s it? And thanks for posting this for those of us who were starting to believe that you actually knew something about Mark from Pa-like who he voted for. Silly.

    • Mark from PA says:

      Catherine, I must say that I do not agree with Bill’s statements here on the pro-life movement. I think Bill doesn’t agree with pro-life people who are against abortion but don’t really care about other life issues. California Catholic Daily does do a service in printing many articles about people active in the pro-life movement and mentions the lives that are saved by “prayer warriors”. I read these articles with interest. I think Bill’s blog is excellent and it has educated me to certain issues. Bill grew up in the civil rights era when the schools were being integrated in Arkansas. He was greatly influenced by what he felt were the injustices suffered by black people and how they were treated. Because of this at the age of 16 he left his Protestant Church and joined the Catholic faith. He was troubled by the way many people in his previous Church treated black people and viewed them as “lesser beings.” I have been very moved reading of Bill’s life experiences. He grew up in a culture different from the culture that I did and since I have a great interest in history, I have learned much from him. I hope that you took the time to read some of his writings and were able to develop a certain empathy with things he has dealt with in his life.

      • Mark from PA, this is off subject but there is a movie coming out March 1 called A Place at the Table. You can see the trailer on Youtube.

      • MarkfromPA,

        Is this your idea of a discussion about history?

        Davenport Mark • 2 months ago

        “How is this modeled on Operation Reinhard? What plans of the Catholic Church have as their aim the extermination of undesirable people? What ethnic groups are considered unfit to be Catholics? Does Archbishop Cordileone or any other Catholic bishop thinks that some ethnic groups and other groups such as gays should be purged from the Church? What do you think will cause Archbishop Cordileone’s fall from grace?”

        • Mark from PA says:

          Catherine, Operation Reinhard was the German Nazi plan to exterminate Polish Jews. I was questioning a poster’s using this term in connection with the Catholic Church. You are quoting questions that I asked but you failed to print the comments that provoked these questions from me.

      • MarkfromPA,

        History?

        Davenport Mark • a month ago


        “Actually, I think the Pope probably isn’t too lonely. Have you ever seen his personal secretary, now Archbishop Georg Ganswein? He seems to be a great guy, plus the Pope probably has many other employees at the Vatican who help to make his life easier. A lot of people probably love the Pope so in this respect he has it easier than many people. But being His Holiness, it is surely a challenge trying to attain and retain a sense of personal holiness. I wonder if it is something that he feels he must constantly strive for.”

        • Mark from PA says:

          Yes, Catherine, this is definitely a historical question. I wonder how many of our Popes throughout history have felt that they needed to constantly strive for personal holiness. In the 19th Century the Pope was declared to be infallible in matters of faith and doctrine proclaimed ex cathedra but this does not mean the the Popes throughout history have been without sins. The Church does not teach that the current Pope or past Popes are or were impeccable.

      • PA, this Bill called the pro-life movement demonic and still you admire him. I often notice that you ALWAYS try to take both sides of the argument…

    • Catherine, was bilgrimage the diabolical homosexual website that you referred to?

  24. I feel that homosexuality can be cured. It is a variety of sexual paraphilia, that is much like pygmalianism, zoophilia, coprophilia, necrophilia, voyeurism, and exhibitionism. All can be treated through redirection and operant conditioning. Homosexuality is gravely disordered and those who indulge in this perversion are committing a mortal sin.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Gator you are correct it can but it takes great will from the person….Lets continue to pray not only for those who are indulging in those types of sins to turn away, for their conversion but also for our society to return to treating homosexuality as a disorder not as a right……for those that do not find it easy to have the will to turn away from those temptations…we can pray for them to follow our church’s guidance on such temptations and that is to live a chaste lifestyle.

      They will not only build character and humility but also will be pleasing to our Lord and His mercy is unending….

  25. One behaves in Charity and Love by helping others to AVOID the near occasion of sin.
    It is not Charitable nor is it Love to advocate placing those with temptations in the near occasion of sin.

  26. A woman was on a plane years ago…she was sitting next to the saintly Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen. She disclosed that she had an abortion…and the doctor said that the fetus was nothing more than a nerve bundle, a little scar tissue…he asked her, “What were you going to name the scar tissue?…she broke down in tears, made a good sacramental confession and was reconciled to holy mother Church…praise be Jesus Christ…

  27. abc christian says:

    You should try to remember what Christianity is really about and not worry so much about the nitpicky little stuff. Strain the gnat and swallow the camel.

  28. Abeca Christian says:

    I finally made it a point to attend Mass in Escondido and we went to St. Mary’s during the 10:30am Mass, I made it a point to make sure he was going to be the priest to say mass. Father Perozich is an exceptional priest! In his homilies he does take the the time to catechize his parish. I was so impressed. The mass was very reverent and they had some Latin incorporated with English as well.

    He had a warm welcoming smile as he looked out to the crowd. You can see that he loves being a priest. My husband and I really enjoyed attending Mass there.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      I pray to visit Father Perozich’s parish more often….it was a full house…most of the people that I saw that day that attended Mass dressed with respect and proper. I hope to read more articles here on Father’s homilies or what he says to catechize the faithful…he is really good. I find his way to catechize can actually reach our youth, he explains with love and clarity. Those in Escondido are blessed to have a good priest who can teach well the faith and help many embrace it as well….God bless Father Perozich!

      • Abeca Christian says:

        He is in my prayers to advance as a Bishop and higher up, may it be God’s will. God’s will be done not mine!

        Let us not take for granted God’s wisdom and knowledge and use our gifts as a way to light up God’s word…..shine for Jesus…

  29. Abeca Christian says:

    God bless Father Richard Perozich!

  30. Cyberstaliking is using the Internet to stalk or harass someone. It includes monitoring someone or gathering information to defame someone. Often times, the stalker is someone that has been “met” on a forum or chat room. California was the first state in the US to legally prohibit cyberstalking. Wikipedia has more information.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Nope, does not apply here…

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Catherine I tried replying another rebuttal in response to this foolish suppression that Anon does on the faithful….but they found my comments not suitable to go through…I am in support of Catherine…she is good to do some detective work on those who pretend to be faithful while actually they are traitors of the faith. Good job Catherine! Exposing is good…..like any good detective work, I give you an A plus!

  31. Has anyone ever read the works of Fr. Montague Summers?… an obscure English cleric and convert… someone well worth reading though…

  32. Catherine recommended the website called Queering the Church to see what her “enemy” is up to. I have to say there are a lot of things on there that I had never seen before. It really points out that it is harder to come out as Catholic in the gay communities that to come out as gay in the Catholic communities. They really need prayers.

  33. Anonymous says:

    If a priest had a homosexual orientation but was faithful to the teachings and morality of the Church, should he be expelled from the priesthood?

  34. The article Catherine wrote about is very interesting. This thread has gotten so long that the reply features do not seem to work. If anyone has read the article and wants to discuss it, there is an article with few comments ‘why same sex opponents” worry Feb 20.

  35. Abeca Christian says:

    The Constitution was not created to permit men to sin and create more evil or to take away religious freedom…never was it created for those reasons and most of the men who created it were actually God fearing men! I would hope that they had good intentions, they never intended for the Constitution to be abused as it is today by evil and wicked men! Once there was common good and common decency but today there is almost none!

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