Reaction of LA area Catholics to sex abuse documents

Faith unshaken
Cardinal Mahony and Archbishop Gomez at the 40th anniversary ceremonies at Thomas Aquinas College

Cardinal Mahony and Archbishop Gomez at the 40th anniversary ceremonies at Thomas Aquinas College

The following comes from a January 28 story in the Los Angeles Daily News, days before the news about Cardinal Mahony being stripped of all public duties.

On the first Sunday after a flood of newly released documents showed how Catholic leaders shielded priests accused of child sex abuse, parishioners at churches across Los Angeles and beyond said they were troubled by the revelations but remained strong in their faith.

At the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels in downtown Los Angeles, Archbishop Jose Gomez had been quiet about the issue all week, but spoke out briefly about it during his morning sermon.

“This has been a challenging week for all of us in Los Angeles because of the abuse of many by priests,” Gomez said somberly to the hundreds of parishioners who had filled the sanctuary.

“Today we want to especially pray for anyone who has been hurt by the church. We also want to renew and strengthen our policies on the protection of children within the diocese.”

Gomez became leader of the largest Roman Catholic Archdiocese after Cardinal Roger Mahony retired in 2011. It is Mahony, however, who remains at the center of allegations of how the Los Angeles Archdiocese concealed sexually abusive clergy in the late 1980s.

The letters, memos and depositions by victims within the files of 14 priests show how he and then-Monsignor Thomas Curry tried to prevent police and parishioners from learning that children – mostly young boys – were being molested.

The details renewed anger among victims of clerical abuse, who last week called for Mahony and Curry to be held accountable. The Los Angeles District Attorney’s office promised to look into the files.

Yet despite being shocked and concerned by the new information, parishioners far and wide expressed nearly the same sentiment, that the sins of men, even those of the cloth, do not affect their faith in God.

Maria Marciano, a parishioner at Sacred Heart Catholic Church in Rancho Cucamonga, said she and other Catholics will not lose faith.

“If you have faith in God, that’s not going to stop,” she said. “We don’t come to see the priest.”

Marciano, who lives in Fontana, said clergy who abused children will ultimately face responsibility for their sins.

“Whoever did wrong things, … they’re going to (answer to) God for what they’ve done,” she said.

“It’s devastating that something like that would happen, but as Christians and Catholics, we still have our faith,” said Debbie Garcia, who attended Mass at St. Christopher Church in West Covina with her husband, Gilbert Garcia.

She and other parishioners said the disturbing revelations only highlight the sinful nature of mankind, and the need for divine guidance. Several church-goers said the involved victims, as well as the involved priests, are in their prayers.

“It’s sad that it happens, but you’ve got to keep going forward,” Gilbert Garcia said.

Debbie Garcia said she felt confident the church has changed its ways and is now handling the issue in a more forthright and appropriate manner, though she added that the change comes late.

The archdiocese released a statement last week, saying lessons have been learned from the allegations and that layers of safe practices have been in place in the last decade.

“We have apologized for the sad and shameful actions of some priests, as well as for our inadequate responses in assisting victims and in dealing with perpetrators to promptly report abuse allegations to civil authorities, to screen all those who supervise children, and to train adults and children in the latest abuse prevention procedures,” the archdiocese said.

“It should have been dealt with from the beginning,” Garcia said.

The Catholic church is not alone in recent revelations regarding allegations of failing to properly address child sex abuse, parishioners said, pointing out other instances, such as allegations that have recently surfaced regarding teachers in the Los Angeles Unified School District.

St. Christopher Parishioner Ruben Reza said he was also deeply unsettled by the information emerging regarding the church’s handling of child sex abuse allegations, but his faith remained unshaken.

“It’s got nothing to do with my faith,” he said. “As far as I know, there has only been one perfect person, and that’s Jesus Christ,” he added. “I don’t believe in the priests, I believe in God.”

Some parishioners at Lakewood’s Saint Pancratius Catholic Church wouldn’t talk about the document revelation. But Daniel Esparza, 79, of Long Beach, said the document revelation doesn’t challenge his faith.

“I still respect the priest here,”he said.

However, Esparza had harsh words about Mahony.

“Mahony should be prosecuted,” Esparza said. “He protected (the priests). They’re just like anyone else. You break the law, you should be punished.”

To read entire story, click here.

 

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Comments

  1. Mchicha Wacheza says:

    Whose faith is shaken? Who puts faith in men? Our Faith is in Jesus the Christ, son of the Living God, not men.

    Yes they have received the Sacraments, but they still have free will.

    • Good advice:

      Christ’s words in the Dialogues of St. Catherine of Siena on good and bad priests:

      “You should love them therefore by reason of the virtue and dignity of the Sacrament, and by reason of that very virtue and dignity you should hate the defects of those who live miserably in sin, but not on that account appoint yourselves their judges, which I forbid, because they are My Christs, and you ought to love and reverence the authority which I have given them.

      “It not being My will that they should be in this state, you should pray for them, and not judge them, leaving their judgment to Me. And I, moved by your prayers, will do them mercy if they will only receive it, but if they do not correct their life, their dignity will be the cause of their ruin. For if they do not accept the breadth of My mercy, I, the Supreme Judge, shall terribly condemn them at their last extremity, and they will be sent to the eternal fire.”

      • Great advice has a time and place. Regarding the current state of affairs, that advice has been there and done that, and hasn’t worked. We are not living in medieval times, in a European cultural climate, but in the here and now. We are not serfs, slaves, vassals, and they are not princes, barons, knights, yeomen and whatever. Notice also in St Catherine’s advice that she describes the particular clerics deemed for her advice. One point is that they are God’s “little Christs” … She does not say that all clerics are of this category. Remember that there is the unforgiveable sin and the sin against the Holy Spirit. Remember also that Jesus ran down the “sons of the devil” who were running His pre-Christian religion. Jesus also said, as has been often pointed out, that it is better that a man have a millstone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea than for him to harm any of Jesus’ “little ones”. Such as Cdl. Mahony has transitioned himself out of the protective category in my view, and the evil doers high up in Church hierarchy have also recused themselves from the protection of God. Also, what reason is there to imagine that a bishop has any more God given right to protection from the consequences of his actions than lay people. The higher the appointment, the further to fall. Arrogance in the episcopacy needs to end. The swords that Jesus advised his disciples to retain make them one with the secular authorities … for a reason.

        • Also, any man can be appointed a bishop. But not every man appointed will be raised into the evil cabal that obviously has entered the Church. Convince me that the Judas Iscariots of the episcopacy are in need of prayer, are worthy of prayer, will be helped by prayer, etc. They can save their souls while locked in prison or some remote monastic cell. They are little Satans ruining souls and need to be exorcised out of their influential positions.

        • Anonymous says:

          The quote is from the Dialogues and it is available online. St. Catherine absolutely says that all priests are his Christs and are not to be judged by anyone but Him. Just google her name and a phrase from the quote and you can see the whole thing.

  2. Cardinal Mahony and Bishop Curry must be prosecuted. If they get away with these crimes these horrible practices will continue in other dioceses.

  3. We should all write Archbishop José H. Gomez thanking him for his courageous handling of the Cardinal Mahony and Bishop Curry affair. He must be under great pressure.

    Address is:

    Most Reverend José H. Gomez
    Office of the Archbishop of Los Angeles
    3424 Wilshire Boulevard, 5th Foor
    Los Angeles, CA 90010-2241

    Fax: 213-637 6510

    Email: Archbishop.Gomez@la-archdiocese.org

    • Yes, write him and urge him to order this:

      That the St. Michael prayer is to be prayed in ALL parishes effective ASAP. No more wimpy pc “prayer/poems” but the straight up “defend us” prayer.

    • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

      I agee, but also ask him to clean up the rest of the REC. There are at least 22 more very objectionable speakers of the list. You don’t have to believe me, just go to RECongress.org and see for yourselves.

      God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
      Kenneth M. Fisher

    • I don’t think any worthy bishop needs our thanks, but what they need is our support.

      • Maryanne Leonard says:

        Everyone needs to be appreciated, Skai, and those who are most worthy of our appreciation should hear of it most frequently. Good is to be encouraged everywhere we see it, and its opposite discouraged, although few will listen. Still, this world is ours, and this is our time to contribute to the shaping of our society by helping one another seek the light and follow Jesus in every way we can, inicluding encouraging one another, whether bishop or homemaker, priest or street sweeper; we all matter, and we all are part of our present society.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Skai sometimes we need to thank them as a sign of humility. Too much pride would only make a person lack an opportunity to practice a thankful heart with the words “thank you” but one must be careful not to mislead a soul with those words because sometimes when done overly or wrong, we can also build big heads growing in pride.

        There is always that fine line but we must always practice good charity and like you said, our full support too for them. : )

  4. Clinton R. says:

    I would be curious as to the state of seminaries today. We know in the 60′s 70′s 80′s and 90′s they were cesspools of homosexuality and heterodox anti-Catholic teaching. Father John Zuhlsdorf (Father Z) has often said how nightmarish his experience was in the seminary. Traditionalism was met with disdain and was severely discouraged. Good men left the seminaries in droves when they saw the horrors occurring there. The only way to restore holiness in the Church is to return to sound Catholic doctrine and praxis. If garbage is taught in the seminary, what kind of priests do we expect to get? I pray Archbishop Gomez will dismantle the disaster left behind by Cdl. Mahony, starting with reforming or ending the heretical Religious Education Congress. Domine, miserere nobis. +JMJ+

    • How many truly faithful lay people could be marshalled in a show of force to support any effort by Abp Gomez to clean house?

      • Maryanne Leonard says:

        Try to remain hopeful, Skai, and stand always with anyone who is following Jesus, cleaning up His house, or helping us keep our hearts and minds on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Skai I know that you only speak from a place that has seen the reality of today…

  5. As a devout Catholic Christian I have to say that I am very disappointed that further action hasn’t been taken by both the Church and the Los Angeles District Attorney. Perhaps that will change in the near future?

    Similar to the handling of Cardinal Bernard Law many years ago, the Catholic Church needs to realize that in our society, given the documented evidence, it’s simply not OK to allow Cardinal Mahony to publicly remain as a priest in good standing.

    To allow him to publicly celebrate any of the sacraments of the Church is unthinkable. To give him even the potential to vote on the next Pontiff or to attend Church functions as a cardinal is simply unacceptable.

    I’m sorry Pope Benedict XVI, but I no longer want to hear about Canon Law nor other customs of the Church in matters like this. I don’t seek vengeance — I seek justice and healing.

    Do you realize Pope Benedict XVI, that souls are straying away from the Church over matters like this? Just how many of the faithful have been terribly hurt and how many have left the Church in the USA over the last 50 years due to arrogant and incompetent leadership from men like Cardinal Mahony? You need to act, Holy Father, and you need to act in a decisive manner.

    We’ve had quite enough here in California. Both the Church and the Los Angeles District Attorney need to go further. Only then will the true healing begin.

    • The popes do not have magic wands, rather they have various power structures pressing them all the time. This Pope just had his personal butler betray him … what does that say about his capabilities? There is evil rife in the Vatican … the Question is how to get rid of most of it, at least how to break its back. So far nobody has come up with the solution. Nobody, not a single person on this planet has brought forth a plan that has worked.

      • Anonymous says:

        There is absolutely nothing that goes on in the Church that Jesus Christ is unaware of. Trust Him.

      • Maryanne Leonard says:

        Study the teachings of Jesus Christ. To the extent that we follow Him, the plan works. It is not logical that you conclude that the Pope is ineffective because his personal butler betrayed him; think of Jesus and His betrayal by Judas. If every person who is betrayed is castigated as ineffective, you are failing to perceive the value of leadership. Moral, financial, political, or business leadership does not guarantee that everyone who is following the leader will be perfect. If that were ever so, there would be no need for leadership. It is precisely because humans are fallible that good, or dare I say great, leadership is necessary.

  6. R.B. Rodda says:

    If this horrible issue is truly going to be solved, everything needs to be open to review. That includes taking a very hard look at the homosexual influence on the Catholic priesthood.

    Many will argue with this need but I maintain that until this matter is faced, the problem as a whole will not be solved.

    The Church cannot afford to buckle-down to the laws of PCism and turn its head on homosexuality in the priesthood and the impact it has had on the faith — particularly our children.

    • Exactly… Homosexuality as the major cause has never been addressed.

      I remember when that ‘whitewash’ of a million dollar report from the John Jay Study was issued and released… I was in shock when they blamed the so-called ‘culture’ and availability of ‘boys’ through altar servers as the reason for the abuse! (Could there have been pressure from the liberals in the Church on this?)

      The original report claimed over 80% involved homosexual abuse. The Bishops need to face the truth about what actually occured… At least the Pope realized it and prohibited gays from the Priesthood….

    • Interesting, Rodda. Maybe you are capable of digging beneath surface appearances. Go for it.

  7. Larry from RI says:

    “Mahony should be prosecuted,” Esparza said. “He protected (the priests). They’re just like anyone else. You break the law, you should be punished.”

    Book em Dano!!!!

  8. Jesus warned us that there would be sinful actions on the part of all human beings by His choice of Judas Iscariot as an Apostle who betrayed Him. And his choice of St. Peter, who denied Him but repented.

    This does not shake our Faith instituted by Jesus Christ.

    It is important that Cardinal Mahoney and Bishop Curry answer to the civil authorities regarding hiding information from the police, which allowed child abuse to continue.

    “Moreover, the responsibility for ensuring the common good is one of the chief responsibilities of public authorities.

    The punishment of crimes such as sexual abuse is based on the restoration of justice, and the need to deter others from committing such crimes.

    Whether clergy, religious or lay persons in our Church communities, we need to assist the public authorities in their fulfillment of this duty for society.” — Vatican web site DELICTA GRAVIORA

    “Sexual abuse of minors is not just a canonical delict but also a crime prosecuted by civil law. Although relations with civil authority will differ in various countries, nevertheless it is important to cooperate with such authority within their responsibilities. Specifically, without prejudice to the sacramental internal forum, the prescriptions of civil law regarding the reporting of such crimes to the designated authority should always be followed. This collaboration, moreover, not only concerns cases of abuse committed by clerics, but also those cases which involve religious or lay persons who function in ecclesiastical structures.” — Cardinal Levada, Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (posted on Vatican web site).

    Pope John Paul II stated, “There is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young”. (Vatican web site)

    Those guilty must face both Civil and also Canon Law.

  9. Who was the most favored, most intelligent and most beautiful of all the angels in heaven? Yes, it was Lucifer. All of God’s creatures are given free will. Each is responsible for his/her own choices. One third of the angels followed the lead of God’s creature Lucifer rather than God Himself. That did not put a stain on the other two thirds of the angels in spite of the fact that one of their own had sinned. Lucifer and his ilk are working overtime to bring down the earthly creatures who have the most power to lead others to God. Mother Angelica tried many years ago to save Cardinal Mahony but his pride would not let it happen.

    Have you ever wondered why the LA area never allowed EWTN? Cardinal Mahony could easily have brought it to LA if his pride had not been hurt years ago by saintly Mother Angelica.

    • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

      My opinion of EWTN is that since it was handed over to a non-religious management group, it’s become nothing more that a book-selling venue for professional Catholics.

      One wonders why people who want to work as preachers do not go into religious life, instead they get into the business of making a living on the Catholic speaking circuit without the commitment necessary to become a preacher.

      I will start watching it once it’s back in the hands of sisters.

      • I didn’t realize that ! You mean the financial decisions or the programming decisions, as well? How did you hear that? I do know that lately I”m really getting tired of all the book peddling on ALL the EWTN radio shows, as all the various personalities have a book out that they’re pushing or is about to come out. Why don’t Catholics trust their own good sense and follow the teachings of the Church and the Bible, pray more and spend more time in quiet and reflection. You don’t need some ‘expert’ to do your thinking for you all the time. It’s important in being authentic to make mistakes and learn from them. I’ve stopped reading so much (except for the lives of the saints etc.) and am spending more time in doing and thinking.
        (And showing my ignorance on this site quite frequently, as well, of course)

      • R.B. Rodda says:

        I tend to agree with you.

        Catholic clerics and laity gain exposure on EWTN, write a book or two and become rock-stars. The $$$ comes tumbling in. Just look at how many have fallen hard after gaining fame via EWTN.

        EWTN also preaches an almost fundamentalist Catholicism under the guise of “traditionalism.” I stopped watching their programs over a year ago.

        • You fail to understand what Mother Angelica created, Rodda. You should eat some crow one of these days, and then maybe you will understand.

          • R.B. Rodda says:

            Actually I would hope you agree that God created EWTN. I don’t for a minute ignore what God created through Angelica.

            Her obvious arrogance right on TV was horrible though and it was especially painful given the great work she had done.

            “…I happen to own the network…” :(

      • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

        Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka,

        I happen to personally know some of those who are on EWTN as Evangelist. Some are former Protestants of very high status who gave up much to enter the Church when they did. Marcus Grodi was the head of the Presbyterian Church in Canada , they had no idea where there next check was going to come from. Our Lord very clearly told us that the “Worker is worth his hire”. Do you expect them to write books and make personal appearances for nothing? They have to support their families just as you do! For the most part, I thank God and His Mother for them.

        I am not a complete fan of EWTN since Mother Angelica turned it over to others, but it does do a lot of good.

        God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
        Kenneth M. Fisher

        • The Lord was watching over Mother Angelica and EWTN.
          After she had her first stroke she started planning for the future rather than turn it over to certain Bishops (like Cdl. Mahony).

          By the time she had her most debilitating stroke, which left her unable to work and easily communicate, everything was in good legal order.

          I highly recommend EWTN.

          EWTN has done more good to Save Souls than any other media form. And since Pope Benedict gave her the highest honor in 2009 for all her work, he must think so too.

      • The entrenched Catholic marketing machine is the problem, not Mother Angelica.

        • Agreed, since mother Angelica left, its been taken over by profiteers, for the most part.

        • Amen, skai. Mother Angelica (a sweet little Ohio girl) brings so much spiritual understanding with a gritty, down to earth humor that seems to make things so clear and speaks to a wide variety of people. She was one of a kind, and I pray for her everyday. She is sure praying for all of us, even if she can’t talk!

      • If it were not for EWTN, I would not have returned to the Catholic Faith after an absence of more than 25 years.

        Mother Angelica herself appointed those who have followed her after her first stroke. She knows those who are faithful to the Magisterium.

        People will only purchase those books and articles that may be helpful to them as individuals. It is better that these books are available and read, than viewing most of the trash perpetrairted by the secular media. The purchase of these books allows for the person’s public ministry to continue.

        When you personally do a better job of evangelizing than EWTN and bring more Souls to Christ than EWTN, — then you can criticize. Until then get the log out of your own eye. Mt 7:1-5.

        By discouraging others from watching EWTN you may be causing the loss of Souls.

        EWTN does and always has operated 100% by donations. The Bishops have never had any part in it. Pope John Paul II blessed EWTN and Mother Angelica.

    • R.B. Rodda says:

      Angelica acted with great personal pride on this matter. Had she actually exposed “Gather Together Faithfully” for what it was without interjecting her personal ego and arrogance, it would have been far more helpful to the faithful of Los Angeles.

      • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

        Rodda,

        You are arguing with God! God cured Mother Angelica on Worlwide TV, thus putting a stop to Cdl. Mahony’s efforts to destroy her!

        God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
        Kenneth M. Fisher

        • Rodda, you stand alone. You do not stand with Pope Benedict regarding Mother Angelica and EWTN.
          In 2009 EWTN founder Mother Angelica and EWTN’s former Chairman of the Board, Deacon Bill Steltemeier were awarded the Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice Medal (The Cross of Honour) by Pope Benedict XVI for distinguished service to the Church.

      • Mother Angelica is not arrogant. She is humble. Too bad some people see humility as a step n fetch it slave mentality. It’s not; humility is simple honesty. Mother Angelica exudes honesty and simplicity, virtues worthy of imitation and study.

        • R.B. Rodda says:

          She was horribly arrogant. It was sad too because she did so much good. I’ll never get caught up in the EWTN rah-rah again!

          Some of the people on EWTN (exs. Fr. Mitch Pacwa and Fr. Jospeh Mary) seem to be beyond reproach. Others not so.

        • R.B. Rodda says:

          In fact I can tell you exactly what the straw was that broke the camel’s back was with regard to my opinion of Angelica.

          I was reading her book and she was in the midst of a scuffle with some senior clerics and suits. Someone asked her (and I paraphrase) just who did she think she was? What gave her the right to direct the activities at EWTN?

          I will never forget reading her response: “I happen to own the station.” While that might have been legally true to some degree at that exact point in time it was the straw that broke the camel’s back…

        • Maryanne Leonard says:

          EWTN has done so much more good in the world than I have, it is shocking to read of so many people denigrating it for the reasons laid out here. When some of you writers have done as much good as EWTN has done and continues to do every day for the Catholic faith and those who are curious about it, please complain to me about how much less EWTN has done in the service of God and mankind than you have personally. Think of the many thousands of bedridden people who can attend Mass from their beds every day and listen to wonderful programs by good people every hour of every day, all around the world. I can’t say that any good I have ever tried to do can compare with what is being given to the world through EWTN. Where is there a more effective force for good in any media anywhere in the world? So what if a few of the people on EWTN are published authors? Should they be denied their livings? Should priests be denied as well? Should you be denied your wages for the work you do? Should I? I think differently. I think the work is wonderful, and the pay is shamefully minimal, in comparison with the value it offers both the individuals affected by it and thus the world at large. Watch EWTN for long enough, and your mind will be enriched, and your heart edified. I even believe you will find yourself caring for your soul more tenderly.

      • First off, its “Mother Angelica”

    • True True Ally!

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Rodda you are gravely wrong here to go after Mother Angelica! She is a lovely soul for Christ. Wake up!

    • Maryanne Leonard says:

      The LA area definitely allows EWTN and as far as I know, always has. It is EWTN radio that has not been able to come here, and that is only because LA radio is the most extensive radio market in the world and is thus prohibitively expensive to buy broadcasting stations. Therefore, your comment is not correct.

  10. The good Cardinal was forced to play defense in his effort to hide the homosexual actions of so many of his priests over the years, but I wonder how finally getting his hand caught in this cookie jar will effect, if any, another one of his projects where he played offense and which may be more damaging long term … the LA Religious Ed Congress. BTW, it opens 2/21/13.

    • Will they have the leotard spandex people dancing around like they did when Cdl. Mahoney was in charge?

      I think this would be a great venue for some of us to gather and make our views known: defrock Mahoney!

      • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

        Convert,

        CRCOA, Inc. will be outside the Covention center from roughly 9:00 AM, Saturday, February 23 to 6:00 PM to conduct a prayerful demonstration. You are more than welcome to join us and help us pass out information on the bad speakers to those in attendance. Just make sure that yours signs are accurate and in good taste. Some of us plan on being there on Sunday, February 24 as well. If you plan on coming Sunday, let us know so we can provide you with materials.

        For further informaton, contact us at: crcoa@att.net/ 714-491-Catholic or 714-260-3821 (Cell).

        God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
        Kenneth M. Fisher

        • Notbitterhere says:

          There will be 5 or 6 bitter protesters outside, and 40,000 catechisms, lay parish employees, nuns, brothers, priests and dedicated Catholics inside. Too skewed for me to take the bitter protesters too seriously.

        • Do you have a new website? Thanks for letting me know!

  11. “Strengthen our policies on the protection of children,” “screen all those who supervise children,” “train adults and children in the latest abuse prevention procedures, “layers of safe practices,” “address child sex abuse,” and blah-blah-blah. . . . What about: screen out homosexualism from the priesthood, explain and expose the commonalities between feminism and homosexualism, remove dissenters from the L.A. Religious Education Conference, insist on fidelity to the faith, condemn sin, refuse to pass the buck onto people who supervise childen when the crimes were committed by priests who did not supervise children, focus on the fact that 85% of the incidents were same-sex behavior. If it quacks like a duck . . .

    • Maryanne Leonard says:

      Rambler, your comment, “expose the commonalities between feminism and homosexualism” is a slur against women and is for the most part an insupportable statement. The only two commonalities between the worldwide movement for equal treatment of women and the legal rights of gay people in America are as follows: 1) both philosophies insist on change and 2) both philosophies request equal respect, rights and dignity for previously maltreated human beings.

      They are otherwise completely unrelated movements, one predating the other by about 150 years. Even in our own church, there has long been tolerance for the unequal treatment of men and women; for proof, one need only compare and contrast the salaries and benefits conferred on priests and nuns. I am personally not in favor of female priests or male nuns for that matter; I am in favor of equal respect, dignity, salaries, benefits, and rights. Anything less is discriminatory, and unfortunately the negative consequences of this inequality is borne completely by the women while the positive differences are enjoyed completely by the men. I value our priests AND our religious, so please don’t misinterpret my remarks as anti-priest or anti-men; I am in favor of equal rights and respect for both men and women, and let’s not overlook children, without making the mistake of allowing children to run our families, our homes, our churches, our media, our corporations, our schools, or anything else. Let’s run our world with common sense and equal respect and dignity for all; for me that also includes ceasing murdering the babies God Himself has sent us and grant the unborn the same equal rights to life as the rest of us enjoy.

  12. First, Roger Mahoney should be laicized or defrocked, whatever the proper term is. He has no right to be called father and given the respect that we have for priests. Secondly, he should be prosecuted for his crimes against children. He knowingly aided and abetted criminal priests so that they could continue their crimes against children, for decades, while being paid their salaries by the diocese. Some of these children lost their faith, many are emotionally scarred for life. I hope his name will be removed from any structure at the Our Lady of the Angels Cathedral and any other buildings, or maybe his name should remain in place so that people will remember him and his crimes.

    I wonder if it would be possible to prosecute him for building the Taj Mahoney, that multi-million dollar hideous monstrosity that is suppossed to be a Catholic cathedral, for which the cost was approximately three times the original estimate.

  13. Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

    I do not understand how a priest who covered up crimanal activity as evil and devastating to lives as this would remain in good standing with the Church. Especially since he is totally unrepetant.

    Bishop Gomez need to clarify why they are still in good standing.

    Meanwhile that picture of Cleric’s in business suits is part of the systemic problem in the Church. These men think of themselves not as Clerics but as administrators. Souls come after office hours.

    • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

      Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka,

      What picture of Clerics in business suits? They are wearing Clerical garb not business suits!

      God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
      Kenneth M. Fisher

      • Kenneth, I agree with you about their attire.

        Bishops and priests have various forms of the “uniform,” and they don’t wear a cope to dinner, nor a cassock to drive to the market, not a chasuble when working in the garden.

        Some people imagine that every cleric should be in a long robe 24/7, which is ridiculous. Just watch the old “Father Brown” movies from the G.K. Chesteron stories, and you will see that even HE wore sometimes a clerical suit, sometimes a cassock, etc.

        • All those robes are accidental things, and not eternal things. But the problem is that what one wears conveys what one believes.

        • Every Cleric should have a robe 24/7,
          This business wear among priests is part of the problem. You are a priest.
          Dress like one, at least in official functions, if not to the store.

          • It also warns women that you are not available, or at least not supposed to be available, for dating and marriage. There are a few exceptions, of course, when clerics can be attired in other garb.

  14. good cause says:

    Here is an opportunity for the Holy Father to step in and fire Cardinal Mahoney from his “cardinalship”. But it won’t happen because holding guys responsible for their crimes is not the Vatican way. This decision is a no brainer for the Pope. Yet nothing is done.

    Time for major changes at the Vatican. Hopefully, the next Pope will “get it”.

    • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

      Never going to happen. Our popes long forgot they are absolute mornachs.

      • Notbitterhere says:

        So, “good cause” and “Mbûkû” I suppose after attacking His Holiness you are going to claim to be devout Catholics? If you don’t convince anyone, it’s because your positions have so many internal inconsistencies that the reasonable and devout believer can only stand dumbfounded by your stunning lack of charity and arrogance. The nerve!

        • Notbitterhere, not everyone worships popes, which you might find scandalous. Some day a large part of the Church will want to move on from milktoast to meat, as St Paul points out that mature Christians do.

      • Anonymous says:

        They are not. Read canon law. Educate yourself.

        • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

          Anonymous
          The Supreme Pontiff is supreme. His word is law.

          • No Christ’s Word is law. The Popes are Christ’s Vicars on earth. They represent him. The Pope is bound to the Law and to the canons of the Church. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome. He has primacy over the other Bishops. He is not a tyrant. He is the servant of the servants of God.

  15. R.B. Rodda says:

    Remember how Pope John Paul II treated Bernard Law after it was made clear that Cardinal Law had done grave wrong? He appointed Cardinal Law as the Archpriest of the Papal Basilica of Saint Mary Major in Rome.

    That might have been the “Church’s way” but it certainly wasn’t accepted by millions of Catholics here in the USA and abroad. Treating Cardinal Law like that did damage.

    Treating Cardinal Mahony with kid gloves right now is also doing damage.

  16. Thank-you, Del, for reminding us what our Lord said to St. Catherine of Sienna, regarding His priests. I struggle sometimes when meeting and witnessing clergy who lead Our Lord’s flock away by progressive ideas that do not teach The Way according to authentic doctrine, and the ones who commit these crimes mentioned demands we pray for them with great humility. The Holy Spirit will help those who have the authority, I trust, to do God’s Will.

  17. There’s a book that was published aound 1982-83 entitled: “THE HOMOSEXUAL NETWORK” by Fr. Enrique Rueda, and could be obtained @ the time through “THE WANDERER,” a Catholic paper published in Minnesota; it was an extremely detailed account of how many seminaries had been infiltrated by subversives who ENTERED THE SEMINARIES IN ORDER TO DESTROY THEIR EFFECTIVENESS, and cause the exodus of all those “good men” who were preparing themselves to enter the priestly ministry.

    Unfortunately, history has shown how really effective this plot was. And some of it was planned and funded by the Communist Party International. Sounds fantastic? Find a copy if you can and read it. You’ll see for yourselves how perspicacious Fr. Rueda was. He was formerly from (still) Communist Cuba, a refugee as I recall.

    And now we hear this morning from our illustrious Prez how he’s all in favor of the B.S.A. allowing in gay boy scouts and gay scoutmasters, thereby probably making GLAAD’S day, and all the other deviant-agenda bunch. Imagine! The (so-called) President of the U.S. ENCOURAGING SEXUAL DEVIANCY in the young male class of the U.S. Stunning! JUST ONE MORE REASON to impeach THE PRESIDENT,and send him packing!

    May God protect us all from the consequences of all the clueless who voted this man back into office. MARKRITE

    • If you read about his past, MARKRITE, you might come up with some clues… just google Frank Davis or Chicago male health clubs etc. along with his name. It’s a very winding and scary story.

      • Dana, I have the book published last year about Frank Davis (full name, Frank Marshall Davis), “THE COMMUNIST”: this Stalinist Communist from Chicago was Obama’s MENTOR, while he lived in Hawaii, from the age of about 10 until he was roughly twenty, and then he, Obama, left Hawaii to go to Occidental College in LA, Calif.

        So, ensconced in the White House @ the top of the Washington political food chain, as, among other things, COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF of the most POWERFUL army on earth, we have Barack Obama, mentored for over TEN YEARS in Obama’s formative years, a FANATICAL STALINIST COMMUNIST, member in GREAT STANDING of the Communist Party, USA, FRANK MARSHALL DAVIS; we also have an admitted DRUG USER, COCAINE, & SELLER OF COCAINE, Barack Obama.

        Then, try googling “Larry Sinclair” and read the REST of his resume, including the relationship of Sinclair to Obama around the year 1999. Another shocker.

        So, Dana, all in all, we as a nation are in a WHOLE HEAP OF TROUBLE. You should be able to figure out the reasons why and WHY Obama needs to be IMPEACHED, and right away.

        GOD BLESS ALL, MARKRITE

  18. Cheeseburger says:

    Mahony has a masters degree in social work… he’s a social scientist as well as a priest, archbishop and cardinal… he professes ignorance at how to deal with these pervert priestss that were ordained in the 60′s and 70′s… many were ordained post vatican II… these pederast priests are the “smoke” of satan that has entered the Church as Pope Paul the VI sadly expressed.

    Why? It was almost a prerequisite to be a flamboyant, homosexual modernist prior to ordination. Without it, you were booted out of Saint John’s seminary in Camarillo.

    Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies, and Cdl. Mahony is a living, breathing example of “modernism” in the church… he reeks of modernism! This man has a horrific legacy to reflect on, the evil he perpeptrated, along with Bishop Curry, is so ignominious that adequate words to define his repeatedly antisocial way in dealing with this tragedy is inexpressible.

    Thank God Cdl. Mahony is no longer the Archbishop of Los Angeles. Sadly, the poison of modernism that he promoted for years is still infecting the clergy and laity of our holy Catholic Church. Hopefully, they won’t have that “pagan dance ceremony” at the Anaheim Congress this year, complete with form fitting spandex on sensual debauched dancers, who were flitting about the alter and tabernacle in the most revolting, hedonistic manner imaginable! Another shocking outgrowth of Cdl. Mahony’s liberal, modernist, pro-homosexual agenda!

    • I’m telling you, this is all the more reason to go and find a traditional church in your area.

      • This “advice” is not only misguided but misunderstands what this event is all about.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Convert sooner or later, if they grow closer to Christ, will get it but for now, consider it a spiritual blindness that has clanged to many in the church due to bad will.

    • May I call you cheese for short? ;o) The spandex clad dancers you describe sounds so hokey and dare I say it…cheesy! How could people not burst out laughing? It sounds like a corny 1950′s Victor Mature ‘historical’ film replete with half clad dancing maidens and slave boys balancing fruit trays on their heads, weaving through reclining drunken pagans. How did things get so bad? Yikes!

      • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

        Dana,

        Real Catholics present weren’t laughing, they were crying! Especially when they spilled the Precious Blood on the stairs while they were carrying it in forbidden vessels upstairs for more debauchery!

        God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
        Kenneth M. Fisher

      • Yeah, call me MUNSTER cheese cause I am getting more munsterly by the day over all this!

        Oh, yeah, under Cardinal Mahony’s watch, LA became a joke! I will say tho’, LA never had, to my knowledge, clown or puppet masses. BUT some of the parishes had Halloween masses with kids and priests in costume!

    • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

      Dana,

      They had it last year, so what makes you think they won’t have it this year.

      If you can, come and join us as we prayerfully demonstrate outside the Religious Dis-Education Congress. Our Lord and His Mother need more soldiers!

      God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
      Kenneth M. Fisher

      • Mr Fisher, I believe that you believe that you are serving Our Lord and His Mother. We talked about this last year so I will only make the point briefly. It would be better to go in to the REC and attend the problematic workshops and then post here (now that they use volunteers for stories) about what was actually said and correct the errors. Rather than taking the position of “These people aren’t good enough to be at a Catholic Education Conference” concentrate on the wrong ideas so that people who might get fooled can learn the truth. CCD stories are picked up by many Catholic blogs and news sites. That would be a real service. I would love to help you but it will be another 2 years until I am free to make the trip.

        • There is room for you, k, to do as you recommend, and there is room for Kenneth to do what he recommends. There is a lot of room at the convention center, plenty to facilitate all sorts of plans.

        • k, you have a point.

          If several people were to RECORD via video and/or audio — all those things that take place that VIOLATE Church teaching as stated in the CCC — then this documentation could be sent to the Diocese Bishop, the US Papal Nuncio, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

          Exposure of the truth, goes a long way toward correcting wrongs. Document, document, document! Leave nothing to the imagination, and no wiggle room for lies.

      • I certainly would if it weren’t so far away, Kenneth! It’s certainly a strange and ludicrous way to learn about the Church and to celebrate our faith. It sounds more like something the Marquis de Sade would like or the makings of a bizarre Fellini film. Standing outside with real believers would be definitely preferrable!

  19. Many of the comments here are so mistaken. Mistaken because many commenters here FORGET WHAT THE CHURCH IS ALL ABOUT.

    People here are calling for “blood”—”kick him out, defrock him, banish him to the netherworld where he is no longer seen or heard” are the comment here.

    People, like you I am appalled by coverup of any abuse in the Church. But YOUR wanting for more “punishment” beyond what Archbishop Gomez has seen fit to administer is appalling. Why?

    You cannot just “banish” a person who has basically given his life to the Church, who has served the Body of Christ (no matter how imperfectly), who is and was “father” in spirit to the people of Los Angeles. Basically, you cannot just disown this person as if you’re “firing” a person from a company or a place of work.

    What you people forget about the Church is that SHE IS A FAMILY. You cannot just disown your father or your mother–and banish them—even if they have done wrong. They remain FAMILY. And so is Mahoney, and Law, and even the late Fr. Geoghan.

    This does not mean that there won’t be any recompense due to them because of their shortcomings. Our faith is that there will be justice, if not in this world, then definitely in the life to come. But you people are being ludicrous in your demands and are not trusting in the good judgment of Archbishop Gomez.

    You forget what the Church is all about. You cannot just banish a member of a family for a misdeed. You disapprove of what they’ve done, but you continue to love them.

    • Cdl. Mahony did not give his life to the Church, jon; he gave innocent children to molesters. Your attack on those who call for Cdl. Mahony’s ouster is an attack on St Paul who called for the ouster of a far lesser sinner, and an attack on Jesus who called for execution of child molesters.

      • Skai’s comment is totally wrong. No where in Scripture does Jesus specifically mention executing child molesters. As usual, his Biblical hermeneutic is faulty. And for his interpretation of St. Paul? The same, faulty misapplication of Scripture to THIS particular situation.

        Basically what Skai is doing is circumventing my point, which he can never refute: you cannot dismiss a member of your family — even how heinous the crime. You cannot merely dismiss from the spiritual family of the Church one who has given his life for the service of it through his ordination, even if the service is imperfect (and who among you including Skai is perfect anyway?).

        God’s mercy reveals the lack of mercy in your comments.

        • Jesus specifically says about child molesters that they are better off being drowned with millstones.

        • St Paul was converted by God himself.
          In St. Paul’s words – 1 Cor 11-15, and 1 Tim 5:20.
          “Drive out the wicked person from among you”.

          Yes, we must Love our neighbor as commanded by Jesus. This means wanting everyone to get to Heaven for eternity.
          It does not mean there should be no justice for the wrong doers.

    • Love the enabler of rapists not the sin? Victims of rape by the Clergy, then covered-up: You forget what the Church is all about. You cannot just banish a member of a family for a misdeed. You disapprove of what they’ve done, but you continue to love them. This is what the victims got from Cardinal Teflon who never did anything for them unless he lost a court judgement to them. I just can’t feel the love. I guess I’ll take a free get out of sin grace card if Cardinal Mahony has not used them all up. If I end up in Hell for that at least I’ll get to kick his butt for eternity. Anyone care to join me?

      • Love is more than just feelings Roland. And God calls us to love the very people who are unloveable — including the rapist, the moletster, and for people like you, even Cardinal Mahony.

        If you only love the people who are loveable, how different are you from a godless atheist?

        • jon, sentiment and optimism will not get you to Heaven.

          • Really? Then how come Jesus Christ, Who came down from Heaven, precisely said to “love your enemies, do good to those hate you, pray for those who persecute you.” Skai, on this issue, I’d rather listen to the One Who is in heaven, rather than listen to you.

      • Love can be pretty tough sometimes, Roland. Jesus loved Iscariot, didn’t He? Yet He let him do his deed knowing he’d end up in Hell for it. Love is Jesus, and Jesus is the Law of God which includes Canon 915. Now that Cdl. Mahony is sanctioned, his various soft soap applications specialists are out in droves drumming up sympathy. Cdl. Mahony looks doomed to spend some time in a cell, where he can continue to tell himself that he did nothing wrong.

        • Catholic Tradition has never claimed that Judas is in Hell–although St. Peter says so in the Bible. Catholics were always taught that it was his suicide — his despair of God’s Mercy — that would have condemned him, not the betrayal of Christ. You may have meant that, I couldn’t tell. Also, as for Cardinal Mahony, he admitted to doing wrong. It seems as if there is a lot of people who did not like him and are happy to see him “in trouble”. Or who are hoping to use his “trouble” to achieve something that they want for themselves.

    • Maryanne Leonard says:

      Jon, look to God Himself for how He handled Lucifer.

      • Dan Catholic says:

        Maryanne: Your comment is astonishingly irresponsible. The Cardinal is not comparable to Lucifer.

        • Hear, hear Dan. Notice how they “demonize” people. Shameful.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            jon you have demonized people here on this website for years now….your faulty interpretation is obnoxious and annoying to me!

          • The Truth will always be obnoxious and annoying to those who do not heed Him.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            jon you are wrong again, the truth is not obnoxious or annoying to me but to you it is. That is why you and I do not see eye to eye…..

        • Well, Dan Catholic, neither is the Cardinal comparable to Christ, is he?

        • Maryanne Leonard says:

          The cardinal has consciously supported sin and sinning priests, intentionally hiding them from justice, thus making himself guilty of aiding and abetting criminals harming our precious children, and has lied about his own involvement and culpability. I say as he did so he has become a sinner himself and a criminal, and I say he is therefore following Satan. For you to stand up for him and not for the innocent children is to countenance his behavior and puts you in the position of sanctioning the behavior of one who has aided abusive priests, criminals, and those who follow Satan. If you were to witness a priest sexually enjoying a child, would you take the side of the criminal priest, hide his crime, lie to the police, the public, and the laity, and turn around and demand that the rest of us treat this criminal priest with honor and respect? We wouldn’t do it, and we would lump you in with the raping priest. I believe you would flunk Judgment Day too, but that would be up to Jesus to judge your immortal soul. Meantime, I side with the victims and their families and my fellow Catholics and even nonbelievers in condemning this behavior and anyone who sanctioned it or helped to obfuscate the facts of these crimes and sins against children.

      • Anonymous says:

        How did God handle Peter? Or Adam? Or King David?

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Peter does not fall in the same category! He is the rock, he holds the keys! Your comparisons leaves one to wonder what your true intentions are?

          Speaking for our Lord in a proud way is wrong. Just ask for justice and pray for all involved but don’t speak for God! We are only sinful human beings, we know not more than what only our Lord has shown us.

          • I ask for mercy. We don’t pray “Lord, have justice” at Mass every day. After Peter was declared the Rock, he denied Christ 3 times. He wept. He repented. He turned and strengthened the brethren. The point was: Cardinal Mahony is a human; not a fallen angel.

        • Cdl. Mahony is no Peter, Adam, or King David. Anonymous, get a grip for once.

          • Wrong. Our Catholic faith hold that the bishops have succeeded to the office of the Apostles.

          • There were twelve apostles (including St Paul and excluding Iscariot). There are thousands of bishops. Kind of hard to figure how all these bishops are apostles. And of course there is also the errant concept of “office of apostle”. This sort of mindset would have the Church be an idea, or Platonic ideal form, rather than a collection of men and women and children as Aristotle and St Thomas Aquinas present it. Very easy it seems to understand that without a bishop there is no office of bishop. Bishops are real; offices are imaginary.

          • Skai, St Paul, while sometimes called “the apostle to the Gentiles,” was not one of the twelve apostles. Matthias is the twelfth (Acts 1:26).

          • St Paul is called “apostle” seventeen times in the New Testament Letters … go to Douay-Rheims Bible, then enter “apostle” and you will see the references.

          • k, obviously feminist inclinations do not view St Paul with a whole lot of respect. Too bad, because God gave us St Paul as He has given no other for His Gospel. So go ahead and bad mouth this Apostle if you choose. Find some error he committed, if you can. Find some fault with St Paul that God would not like. Now compare St Paul with any bishop in this world today.

    • jon, if you search on the Vatican web site, you will find that both Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict, and the head of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith have clearly stated that all Bishops must report and cooperate fully with the Civil authorities on matters of child abuse.

      Canon law (Church law) is not enough — per both Popes.

      QUOTE from the Vatican web site CDF — CIRCULAR LETTER
      TO ASSIST EPISCOPAL CONFERENCES IN DEVELOPING GUIDELINES FOR DEALING WITH CASES OF SEXUAL ABUSES OF MINORS PERPETRATED BY CLERICS:
      “e) Cooperation with Civil Authority
      Sexual abuse of minors is not just a canonical delict but also a crime prosecuted by civil law.
      Although relations with civil authority will differ in various countries, nevertheless it is important to cooperate with such authority within their responsibilities.
      Specifically, without prejudice to the sacramental internal forum, the prescriptions of civil law regarding the reporting of such crimes to the designated authority should always be followed.
      This collaboration, moreover, not only concerns cases of abuse committed by clerics, but also those cases which involve religious or lay persons who function in ecclesiastical structures.”

      QUOTE: “First of all, I want to remark on cooperation with civil authorities. In most jurisdictions, sexual abuse of minors is a crime.
      We know that clerics are responsible only for a very small percentage of such abuse; the publicity given to clerical abuse is out of proportion to this reality, but should not surprise us, since we too believe that clergy should be held to a higher standard.
      Indeed, as Pope John Paul said so eloquently, echoing the words of Christ himself, there is no room for such behavior by those called to be “other Christs.”
      Moreover, the responsibility for ensuring the common good is one of the chief responsibilities of public authorities. The punishment of crimes such as sexual abuse is based on the restoration of justice, and the need to deter others from committing such crimes.
      Whether clergy, religious or lay persons in our Church communities, we need to assist the public authorities in their fulfilment of this duty for society.” — Vatican web site — CONSIDERATIONS ON THE DELICTA GRAVIORA.

      These are the ‘Church’ reasons that Cardinal Mahoney needs to face civil justice for aiding and abetting through the proven conspiracy with Bishop Curry and others to hide crimes from the civil authorities, and allow guilty priests to continue ministry near children in other parishes.

      Cdl. Mahony is not stupid man. He knows and knew right from wrong.

    • We, the rank and file, have BEEN trusting the “infalible” ones for years and with lousy and ruinous results.

      How many more souls have to be lost and lives damaged ?

      Love these criminals all you want; the rest of us are done.

      • Just who have you personally decided are the “infallible ones”?

        Certainly you never followed the incorrect teaching of any “leader” who does not adhere to all the teachings in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.

        Clearly Convert, you have not read the Bible either. Jesus ordered all of us to love our neighbors. – This means that we want all Souls to get to Heaven.
        It does not mean that they should not be justly punished for terrible behavior.
        Many of us will spend time in Purgatory for our sins.
        Those who do not repent of grave sin will spend their eternity in Hell.

        • Dottie, you are wrong. The Magisterium — the Pope and the bishops in union with him — is infallible in matters of faith and morals. This issue is about governance, and the Church never said she is infallible in matters of governance.

          • jon, again re-read what Dottie wrote. Dottie NEVER stated anything about “governance” being infallible.

            However through Governance (code of canon law) even Bishops can be removed from office through – resignation, transfer, Removal or Privation.

            CCC: ” 890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ.
            It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error.
            Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates.
            To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms.”

            CCC: ” 889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a “supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, “unfailingly adheres to this faith. ”

            CCC: ” 892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter,
            and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals.
            To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent” which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it. ”

            Mt 16:18-19; – whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

          • jon, if aiding and abeting in the sexual abuse of innocent children is not a matter of MORALS – what is?
            When administration – by the Magisterium – addresses morals, it is infallible.
            “Faith” and “Morals”. Think about what that morals means.

            Yes, we must love our neighbors which means to want them to get to Heaven, and we must help them in charity when they are not able to help themselves.
            This does not mean they should not pay for their sins and crimes.

          • Beth, it seems that you have already judged that the Cardinal is guilty even before he has been charged, tried, and found guilty by a court of law. Therefore you are wrong!

            Another thing you got wrong is conflating the bishops’ ministry of governance with the bishops’ ministry to teach the morals of the Church. That the Church teaches against abuse of any kind is clear. NO ONE IN THE CHURCH IS SAYING THAT ABUSE IS OKAY! NO bishop or priest has taught this. On this regard, the bishops’ teaching on this moral issue is INFALLIBLE.

            How they deal with those accused of an act that the bishops have already taught is morally wrong is a matter of governance; it is NOT A MATTER OF THE EXERCISE OF THEIR TEACHING MINISTRY ON FAITH AND MORALS!

          • Abeca Christian says:

            jon you are wrong!

          • “the Pope and the bishops in union with him”: jon, you forgot one slight detail … uh, they have to be in union with God as well as with themselves.

          • Church governance involves faith and morals, so jon once again is attempting to twist the facts like a spear into the side of the Truth.

          • If a secular govt executes a bishop, then that de facto removes him from his throne; thus, a secular government can indeed remove a bishop.

          • Maryanne Leonard says:

            How did “the Pope is infallible on matters of faith” get expanded to include the bishops and morals? Many bishops have proven themselves fallible on matters of both morals and faith, an historical fact that cannot be denied. We now have a cardinal living among us in our time, who has proven himself morally and criminally fallible to the extent of hiding priests from justice who sexually abused our children! He joins the popes who have been shown to be greatly fallible in matters of morals, and these are not matters of conjecture but of historical fact. Let us not deal with the few who will dispute facts, as there is much to do to clean up the House of the Lord, and verbal dalliances are dreadful wastes of our precious time.

          • MLeonard, read the Dogmatic Constitution “Lumen Gentium.” This is the 50th Anniversary of the opening of the Council as well as a Year Of Faith.

            Additionally, you wrote that “He [I assume you mean Cdl. Mahony] joins the popes who have been shown to be greatly fallible in matters of morals.”

            MLeonard, be informed that you have just committed A HERESY. The Pope and the bishops in union with him are infallible in matters of faith and morals.

        • Dottie, it takes a long long time for converts to gain the knowledge of Catholic doctrine. Many of the false doctrines that non-Catholics and lazy Catholics carry almost instinctively are extremely subtle, and are difficult to discover and free oneself from.

        • Dottie, Convert’s use of “infallible” was not literal, but sarcastic so as to make a point.

      • Dan Catholic says:

        Good comment Jon. You shame those who want revenge, “blood.” If justice is really what they want, then they should just defer to Archbishop Gomez’ decision on this for he who knows more about the situation, and is closer to it, than they. Good job Jon.

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Dan you are terribly wrong and mislead to assume that people want revenge! That is a sin to assume the worst in God’s people, especially in this scenario, where many of God’s people have been persecuted by the bad will in the leadership from our faith! What people seek is justice and in truth! i FEEL FOR YOU for being mislead and for bearing false witness of the intentions of others. Only the Lord knows them and if you are truly a man of faith, you would understand that.

          Scandal causes these sort of reactions, it is reasonable. To not have mercy and compassion on the scandalized is truly an injustice! It is when people stop reacting and are desensitized, that is when we have to be concerned. It takes a great personal love and relationship with our Lord to truly know His heart and no human can obtain that closeness due to sin and bad well, especially because it is rooted deeply in pride. But we can be close to His heart as we know how as human beings and some are closer than others.

          God have mercy on us all and may justice be done for the sake of the scandalized! May our Lord remove this false compassion that is only harming more and bringing forth so much desensitizing of what sin really is and does.

          • Abeca, if you are really lamenting on how “desensitized” we have become, then you should note how desensitized you have become to anti-clergy attitudes. This is a scandal.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            jon your words are deceptive but I know that you truly believe in your own man made views. Thankfully I do seek to lead a prayerful life and I can discern who is one who truly is walking in truth, with no pun intended but you are not one I look up to to lead us in truth… you are one of many, which my heart warns me about and tells me to stay away from. Throughout my life, when I got that discernment, when I listened I was fine but when I didn’t that is when I would be deceived and be mislead.

            I look to Christ jon, not you and for you to question my faith, is troubling to me, I am grateful that in my life, I have learned to lean on Christ not on man because ungodly men have only misled me.

            Go in peace….

          • Abeca, if you wish to lead a prayerful life and to walk in the truth as you stated, then respect the ministers of the Church. ALL OF THEM!

    • Mark from PA says:

      Jon, your comments of 2/4, 4:57 PM are moving but what about the victims? Many of the victims are no longer part of the Church family. Many of them have been effectively banished. Many Church leaders view the victims as enemies of the Church. Bishops had compassion for the priests that abused children but little compassion for the children. Lets face the sad truth, the children were dispensable. It is confusing to me, that those priests and bishops didn’t really care about the children. If they had cared they wouldn’t have done what they did. Where is the love of the Church for the victims? They sic lawyers on innocent people and try to smear their reputations and say they are sinners and share the blame for what happened to them.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        PA I think that even you would defend the victims. God bless you for questioning jon here…he is in bad will.

      • We are survivors, not victims. Most of us don’t want money or revenge. It is most important to secure the safety of others. It is getting better, but comments like the ones here that seek to imprison the bishops really only make it more likely that secrecy will continue. The most important thing that can be done is for parishes to let their members know if a pedophile is attending Mass at that parish. (Even if laicized, these men are still required to go to Mass.) Diocese resist doing this.

        • Aiding and abetting is a crime.

          • Parents and abused will just go to the Police first, if Bishops disobey the directives of the Pope and Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith – all ABUSE must be reported to the Civil Authorities.
            Any Bishop who hides abuse info in the future will lose his ecclesiastical position as provided by Code of Cannon Law.

          • This is totally false. No one, including civil authorities, may remove a bishop from his See. Only the Holy Father may remove a bishop from his See. The “provision” Ed describes for the removal of a bishop exists NO WHERE in Canon Law.

    • Catherine says:

      jon, How uniquely kind of you. You truly are a hair shirt quality saint maker. Testing the limits and virtues of wounded hearts to the fullest extent. Even right in front of all of the victims and their grieving families you are always there to only focus on comforting the perpetrators.

      You are the same kind individual who would have the victim’s families watch you request Beef Wellington, lobster tail with lemon and drawn butter, followed by a vanilla shake and a Krispy Kreme donut as the last meal and dessert for an unrepentant or a repentant serial killer. You are so thoughtful to worry about such injustice.

      • MarkPA and Catherine: Who said anything about forgetting the victims? This whole legal process is ABOUT THE VICTIMS! The fact that the records were released to the police is ABOUT THE VICTIMS! The fact that Cdl. Mahony may face prosecution IS ABOUT THE VICTIMS! Abp. Gomez has NOT forgotten the victims.

        The fact remains however that your demands for more punishment beyond what Abp. Gomez has set forth is ludicrous. You forget what the Church is all about.

        • Mark from PA says:

          Jon, I haven’t criticized Archbishop Gomez here. And I haven’t demanded more punishment for Cardinal Mahoney. What I am saying is that the Church needs to do more for the victims. Yes, the legal system is taking care of this but years ago it was policy to hide such crimes from the legal system. The Church has come to a point where it says that right things about the victims as a group but still plays hardball in many instances when it comes to individual victims. Because of this many victims have been driven from the Church. I think the priests that abused innocent children and the bishops who covered up for and enabled this behavior are the ones who forgot what the Church is all about.

          • Wrong! The enablers of abuse may indeed be some who have forgotten, but they’re not the only ones. Anti-clergy commenters here are daily forgetting what the Church is all about.

      • Fresh wild game does not require any seasoning or amendments, Catherine, as long as they’ve been feeding on first rate food. My favorite has been the ruffed grouse that had packed up on huckleberries all Fall. Second is Colorado venison backstrap, and third is acorn fed wild boar chops. Oops, forgot the wild caught lobster cooked and served only a couple hours back from the Channel Islands (that one did have some butter with it): None of these were restaurant fare … They simply cannot compete, which is why they have world class chefs.

        • I know I’m being arrogant with this wilderness rant but it beats being arrogant over souls. If the bishops would only get out of the big city and bright lights once in a while, maybe they could displace their arrogance on something not that important in life.

    • Jon, do you have children? For some reason you don’t seem to be comprehending the full magnitude of Cardinal Mahony’s actions and inaction. Not only did Cardinal Mahony’s actions and inaction cause more of God’s children, the littlest of His lambs, to be sexually abused and their innocence stolen but Cardinal Mahony’s actions and inaction caused these priests to fall deeper and deeper into their habitual sexual sins. Some of these men are/were mentally ill and needed help but were not able to get the help because Cdl Mahony was not acting as a father, a shepherd, but rather as a business owner who didn’t want to tarnish the company name. Cdl Mahony had (maybe still has) his priorities completely out of whack.

      Cardinal Mahony made some very grave mistakes which will have a rippling effect for years to come. It will be best for everyone involved, including the Cardinal, if he is far away from the LA Diocese. He has too much influence here.

      • Loraine, you do not seem to comprehend the magnitude of what the Church is all about. You do not seem to comprehend the magnitude of the mystery of God’s mercy.

        Again, as faulty as any priest’s or bishop’s or lay person’s service to the Church may have been, THERE IS NO DENYING that God has gathered a people — as imperfect as each of them are — to be part of HIS FAMILY.

        It is by virtue of Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross that we have become God’s children. It is NOT by virtue of the perfection of your service to Him, not by the merits of Cardinal Mahony’s ministry, not by YOUR PERSONAL MERITS.

        NO matter what may become of this current event, unless there is any unrepented mortal sin on their souls, these two people (Cardinal Mahony and Bishop Curry) REMAIN PART OF THE FAMILY OF THE CHURCH BY VIRTUE OF JESUS CHRIST.

        And Loraine, thank goodness there is nothing you nor anyone can do about that. Not even the demons of hell. Such is the mystery of God’s love.

        Just as you cannot just disown your own father or mother for any misdeed, how much more is the bond stronger within a spiritual family, which is the Church.

        You’re thinking in a secular way, not in the way of the Church.

        • Anonymous says:

          jon, I agree that you are presenting the teaching of the Church. I have been dismayed to read the comments here. Maybe Lent will touch their hearts and remind them what we are supposed to be doing. Those who call for more punishment are not like Christ. Christ took the punishment on himself. So if those who call for jail time for Cardinal Mahony are willing to serve the sentence for him, then they would be like Christ.

          • That’s really magnanimous of you anonymous! Why don’t you give Cardinal Mahony a jingle and tell him you’d be glad to serve any time he might have to serve. He might balk when he finds out you don’t have a name, and prisons are picky about giving you a number if you don’t have a name first. But let me be the first to wish you all the luck in the world. When you get out we can all meet you at the gates. Don’t expect your friend the cardinal to be there however…he’ll probably be living in Switzerland by that time.

        • Which church are you talking about this time, jon?

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Some would want to go easy on all crime just to lessen their own consequences of the crimes they may have committed themselves.

        • Anonymous says:

          They would be the humble doing unto others as they would have done to them.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            wow that comment holds no water, since a prideful person, usually those that commit crimes, scandals are usually with the domineering trait that is prideful, lead with pride. The root of all evil is pride except when one takes pride in their faith, defends it till no end and that is actually a virtue but the pride I am talking about is the one that sends people to hell.

            I see that anon has a different interpretation of scripture, it’s own theology…….

            may justice prevail….I have not expressed any anger against this Cardinal but what I do pray for is justice, no matter how we understand it. I don’t want to fall prey to false compassion, misplaced emotions that only hurt our faith, but I do seek justice and coming from a place that has read facts of many scandals that this Cardinal has committed, I can only say that his time has to come too….May Justice be done…whatever God wills and may not desensitized men interfere with their false compassion, for it is when their disobedience and temptations takes place, it is when they do not allow God’s will to be done….

          • Anonymous says:

            abeca, you have hit the nail on the head. Calling for man’s justice vs. begging for God’s mercy. “Blessed are the merciful for they shall be shown mercy.” Now, granted it is not the place of someone who was not injured by one of these priests to forgive and let people who did wrong off the hook. Likewise it is not the place of those who were not injured by one of these priests to take punishment into their own hands. Those who God has appointed or who have been appointed by man can deal with these issues. You also have hit the nail on the head when you said “many scandals this Cardinal has committed.” He is not liked by many people. They already had things against him. That makes a difference in how one feels about the situation. Nothing can thwart God’s will, abeca. I am glad you are resigned to his will.

          • Actually, I don’t think Abeca has “hit the nail on the head” at all. What is wrong with her comment is that she has already judged the Cardinal as guilty even before he has been charged, tried, and found guilty by a court of law.

            Already she has judged him “prideful” and “domineering”, and yet at the same time she says she has expressed “no anger” against him. VERY SELF-CONTRADICTORY!

            Abeca, in this country a person is innocent until proven guilty. Your self-contradictory words reveal your bias and prejudice against a man which our society still finds innocent prior to any trial, if there be any.

          • Or as Uriah Heep always said…”I alwez tries to be ‘umble unlike some others I could name”

          • Sounds like your version of “humble”, Anon, is An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. Rather, humility is simple honesty … a very easy to understand concept, but a very difficult virtue to practice.

          • Mercy should be focused on the victims and not on the perps, who can ask it of God for themselves, if they ever get up enough nerve to humble themselves to the task.

        • Excellent point, Abeca. How many sinners I’ve listened to, including myself, who admit their sins and admit they should not commit them … even many “non-spiritual” people who do not believe much in organized religion will admit their sinfulness and that they should not do the sins. What does this say about the puffed up religious leaders who simply deny that they commit these atrocious sins??? Such people are the worst of the worst, as Jesus teaches us over and over and over in His Gospel.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Thank you Skai. As always jon has no clue….apparently he has already placed a judgement….I frankly don’t care what he thinks, he is so wrong, why bother with the likes of him.

        • We do not need any trial court to determine Cdl. Mahony’s guilt … we can read, especially we can read what Abp Gomez wrote, that Cdl. Mahony is guilty as sin and has no excuse whatsoever.

      • jon favors the release of serial murderers, rapists, and other violent criminals out of love for the eternal goal of their souls. jon’s world would have the law abiding citizens locked in prison so that the violent sort would not be able to commit a crime against them, and thus put an end to sin and violence. Let us vote for jon as world ruler for peace and justice.

  20. Glad to read that some Catholics faith was not shaken by this scandal. I am a Christian but no longer a Catholic. The leaders of the Church have failed the members. What a tragedy… and a mess!

    • Anonymous says:

      Jesus Christ is in the Blessed Sacrament, Body, Blood Soul and Divinity. He stays. I stay.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Way to go Anon! JJ please return home to Christ! The true Christian faith is in the wholeness of the Catholic faith. JJ you think it is a mess, but look at how many protestant sects are out there? That is a big mess, so many different interpretations of the holy Word of God. Some sects have even bowed down to gay marriage and they call themselves Christian.

        I think that you need to re-evaluate what the real mess is and seek truth and be part of the light that is needed to spread the truth in Christ!

        If you truly study the word of God, you would really find the connection. Imagine when Kind David killed a man just so he can have that man’s wife… imagine if people would of left God because of that, imagine Judas’ betrayal, that was great scandal, imagine if people left Jesus because of Judas.

        Don’t leave Christ’s church because of Judas my friend, but seek Jesus instead in His Catholic church. There will you will find the truth, even if man has done its bad will but the truth still stands and is there just for the seeking and asking.

        “Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.” — Matthew 7:7

        • I think souls such as JJ and others would enter the Church if they find what they are seeking … which I’d call holiness. This is what Pope Benedict XVI has called for. When people see holiness they flock to it. This is why not many are flocking to the US or western Europe Church today … not much holiness especially in the episcopacy.

    • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

      I do not say this out of being mean, but out of charity. You were never Catholic, becouse if you had known the true Catholic faith, you would never have left.

      These people here, know why they believe the Holy Apostolic Church is the Catholic Church. After all, Judas was a well known sinner and one of the 12 first Bishops.

      What makes us think it would be any different today?

      Jesus lets the Chaff and the wheat grow together, its still his Church.

      • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

        The Catholic Church is the only Church that Jesus founded. If you want to follow him in fullness, you can only do so in the Catholic Church .

        • Abeca Christian says:

          The faith is a gift and for some reason grace is blocked from one’s heart, some stay and cause damage, some leave for whatever reason, some stay and some go…..God have mercy n us all, for we are no different than our fallen away brothers and sister, we are not exempt from not falling as well…..

          let us continue to pray for one another, for the conversion of all sinners.

        • Also, please note that not all who avail of the Sacraments make any good use of them, and many abuse the sacraments. I use an example often of Baptists who have only one sacrament, namely baptism, but often make great use of its power and authority, far greater use than even many devout Catholics of their multiple sacraments.

      • Sort of, MbKMb: The Catholic Church as an idea is one thing, as a structure is another thing, but these things have no substance. What souls seek is holiness (ie Jesus). Much of the Church is in the way, obstructing the seekers.

        • Jesus told His disciples and apostles to get out of the way of those seeking Him … Today’s Church leaders pretty much hog the spotlight and provide little more than shadow shows.

      • Uh, slight technical point here: The “chaff” is the stalk of the wheat which is separated from the grain itself, by the process of winnowing. The “tares” on the other hand are separate plants that are not good for food and clutter up the wheat field, adding extra work to provide the food to man and animal.

  21. My hope is that the Mass that the disgraced Cardinal Mahony and bishops Zavala and Curry brought to us will evolve once they are banished from the Archdiocese’s business. Archbishop José Gomez should follow the lead of the Holy Father on the reform of the reform of the liturgy. Crucifix and candles at the center of the altar, reverence, incense, communion on the tongue and with permission to kneel for those that desire it. Monstrance of the Blessed Sacraments. Generous acceptance of the EF for mutual improvement with the OF. Some Gregorian chant, play our organs again. Some Hail Marys now and then, particularly at the end of masses in Spanish for we have a strong devotion to the Virgin Mary. The practicing faithful that remain in Los Angeles after 25 years of Cardinal Mahony have been tempered in the homosexual scandals of some pederast priests and are determined to stay in in spite of problems that arise. A spiritual/liturgical renewal by Archbishop Gomez would be a welcome gift. As for the Latin Mass, at least leave the 15 year old every-Sunday San Buenaventura Mission Mass exactly as it is and do not allow the liberal pastor evict a stable communion of faithful, as willed by our Pope. In short, all that archbishop Gomez need do is obey and imitate Benedict XVI. The flock will be just fine under Gomez’s watch.

    Deo gratias

    • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

      If this Mass exists, it should be shut down ASAP.

    • Cheeseburger says:

      Beautifully stated my friend… my wife and I attend mass at a very traditional church… reverent Catholic hymns throughout the holy mass, pipe organ, and communion at the alter rail, and everyone receives on the tongue. Our pastor is a holy, humble priest… who is a living saint! Most novus ordo parishes I won’t even attend, with all the ridiculous hand holding, clapping and guitars and drums…. it’s hideous and all rooted in modernism… much of this behavior is pathetic and attention seeking… the very antitheses of the way we should comport ourselves before attending the holy mass, and receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinty of our Lord in the Eucharist… Praise be Jesus Christ, forever…

    • Maryanne Leonard says:

      Thank you, Gratias. Amen to all you say.

  22. Cheeseburger says:

    Jon, your statements are utter rubbish. Heretics were excommunicated in the past, in order for them to make a good sacramental confession and to make them publicly renounce their heresy, and return to “holy mother church”. “Modernism” is a heresy, pure and simple, without equivocation… when Cdl. Mahony endorses and partakes of this diabolical liturgy, it is in fact modernism and worse! This man’s spiritual crimes are beyond heinous… and yes, he can be forgiven… he also should be defrocked, and laicized. This man has been a “horrific” scandal to the church, in this Archdiocese and around the world!

    Yes, virtue comes in the struggle, to forgive… and he needs forgiveness like everyone else. I am tired of him saying “he is praying for the victims”. I want him to admit he needs everyone to pray for him due to his “almost” unconscionable acts of arrogance, stupidity and worldliness that has caused potentially irreparable harm to so many people, due to repeatedly shuffling pederast’pedophile, homosexual priests around the archdiocese for years, who then began eagerly and hungrily molesting and traumatizing more children, when placed back into circulation! He can most certainly be forgiven, but expiation in purgatory can be painful and long… This man’s spiritual crimes are shocking, positively shocking!

  23. To be forgiven, one must be truly repentant.
    This includes Cardinals and Bishops.
    Being repentant means not blaming others for one’s own actions – especially when Catholics have the gift of the teachings of Jesus and His Church.
    No excuses – especially by those with the Catholic education of a Cardinal Mahoney. He can not blame the new Abp, or the Church for his actions.
    “I did not know” is sinful for someone with his education.

  24. Cheeseburger says:

    Saint John’s Seminary in Camarillo has been a hotbed of modernism and homosexuality for decades. I have heard that it has been cleaned up in recent years. My question is by whom? The proof is in the pudding, shall we say. Many years ago I contemplated a vocation to the ministerial priesthood, and made a retreat up at Saint John’s. I was shocked and revolted by the overflow number of openly gay and flamboyant homosexual seminarians, who were flitting about the grounds in the most effeminate manner imaginable. I began discussing my faith with a seminarian on the grounds. He was wearing “yellow dolphin shorts,” was tanned, and had suntan oil, generously slathered all over his frame! He was “working out” in public, jogging and sunbathing. NO JOKE! He proceeded to admonish me, in a very hostile tone, that he was shocked how traditional and conservative my Catholic views were. He was aghast, that I had the “nerve” to share the Catholic views I had, in light of Vatican II, and the advent of “modernism”! This was the last time I set foot on the ground’s of the seminary, I can assure you. I hope and pray that a radical, supernatural transformation has taken hold up at this “seed plot” for young priests, and that the education they are being provided is Catholic, traditional and devoid of the trappings of “modernism,” which as I have already articulated was called “the synthesis of all heresies” by Pope Saint Pius the X.

    • If anyone (even a Priest or Bishop) tells you anything that is wrong or sounds strange about what our Church teaches – we have been given two great resources –
      a ‘Catholic Bible’ and the ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.”

      Many people have lied about Vatican II. Cardinals and Bishops know the truth. They have read these resources.

    • For those of you who didn’t grow up in California, Dolphin shorts were VERY SHORT shorts with little slits up the sides. I wouldn’t doubt that the oiled up, Dolphin short wearing seminarian is a priest now.

      • Thanks, Elaine…I confess I was picturing the knee length baggie shorts the guys wear around here, in a dolphin print fabric…maybe bright orange background w/pink dolphins. haha Those would really fly in the midwest, but NOT the briefs you’re describing. Unless you’re on a swim team, men wearing speedos etc. are not considered pretty sights in these parts.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Cheeseburger interesting post name….will you still be called that during lent season…when on Friday’s we abstain from meat. No pun intended…

      Yes I must add, your comments are good even with that post name

      • There is absolutely NOTHING of merit, nothing commendable about this tall tale by “Cheeseburger.” All this tale does is fuel the anti-Catholic clergy bias and prejudice of folks who usually read this site. Folks, be warned: take whatever you read by “anonymous” people here with a handfull of salt and lots of caution. Especially tales like this which only seeks to tar and feather the clergy of the Catholic Church.

        • Cheeseburger says:

          Jon…your overwhelming “denial” is only eclipsed by your laughable presentation of “faux” piety…I have done nothing to discredit any of the clergy we are discussing…they have done a consummate and shameful job of doing that all by themselves my friend…

    • Anonymous says:

      You went there once, many years ago. I understand that it colored your image of the place but, as Christians, who are not supposed to gossip or listen to gossip, all we can do is studiously not let it affect our opinion of the persons or the place. We don’t have to put on blinders but at the same time, one data point does not make a study.

    • The types of young men you describe, Cheeseburger, really do not know what manhood is, but they play at it in perverted ways. Most of them will never know what it is to be a man. These are the ones that the Pope has said must never be admitted to seminaries or orders.

    • I agree this must have been a sad, appalling experience, cheese, but like going to a doctor and getting a really weak or erroneous diagnosis from the first doctor you visit, don’t you go to get a second opinion? If you really felt called to ministry, shouldn’t you have sought a more orthodox seminary? Maybe it was a test of your commitment and you made the right choice of marriage as your vocation? Just wondering. And Jon, why are you so harsh with everyone, and combative. You’re as much as calling Cheeseburger a liar. I think that is not only rude but unkind (and flies in the face of the image you’re trying to project here of being holier than thou) and the fellow that said you ‘really called that guy out” sounds like we’re having a rumble behind the Jr.High. I thought we were all on the same side here?

  25. Well I stand corrected, I guess Dolphins were worn in other states. I think Richard Simmons still wears them.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Loraine interesting analogy that you have us thinking about Dolphin shorts, I recall seeing a man wearing them just a few weeks ago when he was jogging, I couldn’t believe that they were still made. They usually come in bright beach colors. You are truly right, they are definitely short but I don’t get your comments on bringing up this subject???

    • I think that’s why we don’t see them in the midwest, Loraine (sorry, I think I was calling you Elaine) because of the association people have here of Richard Simmons…the guys tend to be real guys here and pink is for girls and babies and you know… :o)

    • Sometimes you can see dolphins swimming in the surf … and they look amazing, which is way unlike these dorks wearing weird gay wear.

  26. Cheeseburger says:

    I went to a “religious” workshop many years ago at LMU in Westchester…been so long, can’t remember what the workshop was about (memories fade fast, after a couple of decades)…Be that as it may, the workshop I attended was run by a religious sister, though not a nun, because her community did not take solemn vows, she was a sister, in a religious community. Anyways, the workshop was about some modernist “claptrap”, that was two days long, of which I attended maybe 2-3 hours on the first day. The sister who was running the workshop was wearing some make-up, (not garish, by any means) and was wearing a white frilled skirt, with no hose and get this…a pair of “slides”…aka high-heeled “mules”…she was also flirting with the gentleman that I attended the workshop with…we both bailed, and found this experience a “whole lot less then wonderful”…to say the least. If memory serves me we wound up at Dodger stadium watching the second act of a double header, complete with dodger dogs and ice-cold cokes…to this day, this experience has left me with a very unsavory taste in my mouth…

  27. Lord Jesus, let me know myself and know You and desire nothing save only You. Let me hate myself and love You. Let me do everything for the sake of You. Let me humble myself and exalt You. Let me think of nothing except You. Let me die to myself and live in You. Let me accept whatever happens as from You. Let me banish self and follow You and ever desire to follow You. Let me fly from myself and take refuge in You, that I may deserve to be defended by You. Let me fear for myself. Let me fear You, and let me be among those chosen by You. Let me distrust myself and put my trust in You. Let me be willing to obey for the sake of You. Let me cling to nothing save only to You. And let me be poor because of You. Look upon me that I may love You. Call me that I may see You and ever enjoy You. Amen. – St. Augustine

  28. Cheeseburger says:

    Jon — you are in radical denial about the events that have transpired at the seminary in Camarillo. I have firsthand experience with this place, and its seminarians. You obviously have neither, therefore you should refrain from opening your mouth and sounding more “ridiculous” than you already are, unless you are just on this blog to stir up discord, which sounds about right. You clearly sound like a person just parroting information you have gleaned from someone else in order to stir up controversy.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      cheeseburger you sound well informed and blessed with God’s wisdom and knowledge, I applaud your beautiful way of conveying thus far.
      God bless you! (I still feel strange posting comments to a name post cheeseburger though, no pun intended my friend.) lol

      • Dan Catholic says:

        I agree with Jon. There is absolutely no meritorious and positive effect that this “story” will have in the life of the Church.

        Should a lay person spread “scandal” in the Church by describing an event that happened in the distant past is destructive, not only to the Church, but to the salvation of that person who spreads this kind of negativity in the Body of Christ.

        • Cheeseburger says:

          Gee Dan, if you think I will be judged harshly for speaking the truth I shudder to think how an Archbishop/Cardinal will ultimately be judged for playing hide the “pederast” so he could put them back into circulation, in order for them to sexually assault more innocent children and vulnerable adolescents!

        • Thanks for the comment Dan. This anti-clerical attitude is getting old and tired, not to mention scandalous. Whoever heard of Evangelicals, or Buddhists, or Muslims bashing their own clergymembers? But it happens here, in the Catholic Church, among these people.

          It’s shameful what these folks are typing here. Some people should not have the privilege of owning a keyboard and an internet connection.

          • Cheeseburger says:

            Interesting that you find my posts so “scandalous” and a shock to your Catholic sensibilities, the sad and sobering part is, it’s all TRUE! I have yet to hear how dismayed and angry you are over the former Archbishop and Cardinal of the largest archdiocese in the country, who was exposed for playing “hide the pedophile”, over a period of almost two decades, which he did with such regularity that, after the heat died down, he would casually send the perpetrator to another parish that was unsuspecting of this perps’ criminal and shockingly depraved past. Whereby they would have access to another group of trusting, innocent children and adolescents to sexually assault and victimize!

          • Cheeseburger says:

            Yeah…right Jon…and some “seminarians” should never have been ordained into the ministerial priesthood, especially the “homosexual pedophiles” who molested and criminally assaulted children in a vast number of parishes in the southland…

          • Again, Canon Law prohibits inciting others to hatred and contempt for the clergy. This is punishable under Canon Law.

            This “tale” that supposedly transpired “many years ago” has NO POSITIVE MERIT for the Church today.

            What possible good purpose does it serve the Body of Christ TODAY–whether is is true or not? Does it help you in your salvation? NO! Does it help you become a better follower of Christ? NO!

            What it does is to throw contempt at the clergy. And this is what is abominable. This is subject to God’s judgment.

          • What “Cheeseburger” has done by telling this “story” is condemned by St. Paul himself: “Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying…that it may impart grace to those who hear…Let all bitterness and wrath and anger be put away from you, with all malice” (Eph 4:29).

          • “anti-clerical” is one lame excuse for avoiding the challenge of looking at reality, jon.

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Romans Chapter 1…..in it’s entirety

  29. Cheeseburger says:

    On Ash Wednesday, I will officially change my “handle” to fishburger…

    • Abeca Christian says:

      LOL good one

    • I’ll be pilchards-on-toast and Abeca can be Grilled tuna on a bun. haha

      Seriously, getting back to the subject at hand, I think Jon should watch Michael Voris’s program on youtube today! It deals with what we’re talking about here and about Crd. Mahoney’s past close association w/Crd. Bernardin. I doubt anyone remembers, but I asked last week if he was a particular friend of Crd. Mahoney and it turns out they were bosom buddies and Crd. Mahoney was chosen to conduct his funeral mass! Everyone should check it out if they haven’t already!

    • I don’t like fish anymore. They raise it in packed aquariums and feed it on garbage as far as its taste seems.

    • Cheeburr sounds better, and was coined by none other than the Blues Brothers … who were very religious and went on a mission for God, per “The Penguin”. I’d go with “Cheeburr”.

  30. Cheeseburger says:

    I recently spoke with a priest who had the opportunity to visit the cathedral of Canterbury, while on holiday in Great Britain. He was telling me that you could stand right where he was martyred by King Henry The II, and where he crawled, before he died and was granted the “crown of martyrdom”. He stated that a flame, like the one at Arlington for JFK, is kept burning in perpetuity.

    I have always had a great devotion to St. Thomas a’ Becket, as well as St. Margaret Clitherow and all Holy martyrs of England and Wales.

    • Cheeseburger says:

      That was posted as King Henry the II…not the VIII…Henry the II was the King who martyred St.Thomas Becket and was the grandson of William the Conqueror of Normandy…
      The editor replies: Sorry for the editing mistake. It has been fixed.

  31. Anyone hear from JLS lately? What has happened to him?

    • Mark from PA says:

      Tom B., I think he is posting under another name. I recognize the comments about Sodom and Gomorrah and his dogs.

    • Maryanne Leonard says:

      I have been wondering the same thing, Tom B. Mark from PA, what name did you think you recognized him under? I’ve been concerned for his wellbieng and am glad you think you may have “discovered” him. Cheeseburger, may I suggest you change your name to something like Pomegranate, or Blueberry, or something good for us? Your comments are good for the soul, and I think your handle should correspond.

      • Catherine says:

        Diagnosis: Spiritual Neglect. For many years seminarians were psychologically and emotionally trained to think that something was very wrong with them if they saw wrongdoing and spoke up or if they exposed error. Many were sent home for telling or teaching the truth. This is very, very, difficult for certain individuals to read the truth that is exposed on CCD so they remain in denial.

        Many are still used to distorting the meaning of the Gospel, distorting the intentions of the saints and selectively having it, ONLY “their way”.

        Response: Hold the sour pickles, hold the wilted lettuce, specialized excuses won’t upset us. Cheeseburger is well prepared to grill out the bland tasteless flavor and serve the whole truth.

        St. John Vianney, Patron of Parish Priests (1786-1859)

        “The Secret of His Holiness – A Lesson for Priests and Parents Alike

        “In his assignment as parish priest of Ars, St. John achieved something which many priests would like to have done, but which is scarcely granted to any. Not over night, but little by little, the tiny hamlet underwent a change. The people of Ars were unable to remain aloof for long from the grace which radiated from the remarkable personality of their priest. When a man attacks inveterate disorders and popular vices, he challenges opposition. St. John was not unprepared – he knew the enemy would raise his head. “If a priest is determined not to lose his soul,” he exclaimed, “so soon as any disorder arises in the parish, he must trample underfoot all human considerations as well as the fear of the contempt and hatred of his people. He must not allow anything to bar his way in the discharge of duty, even were he certain of being murdered on coming down from the pulpit. A pastor who wants to do his duty must keep his sword in hand at all times. Did not St. Paul himself write to the faithful of Corinth: ‘I most gladly will spend and be spent myself for your souls, although loving you more, I be loved less.’”

        In his early sermons, he thundered against the prevalent vices of the village of Ars: Blasphemies, cursing, profanation of Sundays, dances and gatherings at taverns, immodest songs and conversations. “The tavern,” he would say, “is the devil’s own shop, the school where hell retails its dogmas, the market where souls are bartered, the place where families are broken up, where health is undermined, where quarrels are started and murders committed.”

    • JLS underwent a morphing process of moniker transformation to become Skai. The change was not, however, initiated to confuse any of the bloggers here, as jon had suspected, but only to set up a further level of difficulty for anyone who might some day aggress against me. But of course, this change could also pique the curiosity of evil people who might try to damage my existence in some way … combat, especially spiritual warfare, can get very very tricky, and it helps defend by setting up all sorts of smoke and mirrors, traps and snares. “Peaceful as the dove, wise as the serpent”: If you’ve ever watched or studied a wild snake searching for a meal, then you’ve taken a step towards what it’s about. If you’ve ever observed a dragon looking for souls to devour, then you’ve advanced a bit from step one. “Skai” is an upgrade in “armor” from “JLS”.

      • Maryanne Leonard says:

        Good move, Skai. There may be some additional safety in being more obscure. Now that I’ve been called a heretic, you’d think I too would be searching around for a transformation of moniker myself. But since the accusation was due to my unwillingness to find all bishops and popes worthy of the appelation of infallible on matters of faith AND morals, and I know that the Church admits wrong-doing by popes and bishops throughout history, and I also realize that the gauntlet thrown down came only from the hand of Jon, I determined that there was nothing to worry about. In fact, there may be something of merit in being Jonned, and I’m not too concerned that Jesus will find me a heretic. I am a bit concerned about Jon, though! Perhaps heretic is too strong a word to throw around loosely, so I shall refrain from slinging mud in return, but I do think such wrong-headed thinking is worthy of concern, and so I shall pray. I am delighted to know that you still exist, that you are still posting on CCD, and that your rebirth as Skai was occasioned by wisdom. The dissenters are not likely to find you in the phone book under “S” for Skai. Perhaps I’ll try to become born again myself under a safer handle. Any suggestions?

        • Maryanne Leonard, you are confusing infalliblity and impeccability. Impeccability is given to no one. Infalliblitity is given to the body of the Church as a whole, to the Bishops united with the Pope and to the Pope, individually, when he speaks ex catherdra. It means that when they teach, they cannot be in error on faith or morals.

        • The First Vatican Council teaches that the Pontiff is infallible when he TEACHES on matters of faith and morals. Vatican I did not teach that Popes and bishops are sinless. But rather that when they teach on these matters, they are guided by the Holy Spirit Who preserves the Magisterium from error.

          Those who contradict this have been declared by Vatican I as anathema.

      • Thank you for explaining. Hope that eases everyone’s mind.

      • I always knew it was you, and was just waiting for you to admit it. You’ve too much of strong personality to be someone else, nor was that your intent. I respect your reasons. What I do not like is for people to continue to use anonymous…there could be four different posts with the same name…I do not bother responding as I never know for sure who or what they are. Even if people would just call themselves k, it’s better than nothing…I think of that creepy mask the occupiers of wall str. always wore. ugh

  32. Cheeseburger says:

    Yes Jon, I find priests that molest children not only contemptible but criminal as well — and they should be treated as such. I also find bishops contemptible who spend more time trying to hide the behavior of known sex offenders from the authorities, instead of providing solace and comfort to the defiled. Cardinal Mahony cavalierly placed more children in harm’s way, when he placed these perps back into circulation! You, on the other hand, express no empathy or angst for the assault on the innocent, only the good name of a priest, who never should have been ordained in the first place.

  33. Cheeseburger says:

    What Jon fails to comprehend in his role as apologist for the “faux” clergy, who give grave “scandal” to the church faithful, is that the problem I am trying to illustrate — “openly gay seminarians”, priest pedophilia (which is homosexual as well) read the transcripts, many of these priests openly admit they are homosexual…as well as the abuses taught by the clergy, e.g. modernism and liberation theology, both condemned by the Pope for being heresy, are still being openly espoused by priests and bishops worldwide from the pulpit!

    Gee, Jon…maybe these clergy should listen to the directives of the Holy Father in Rome and the Magisterium…when they clearly forbid the teaching of “heresy” and the ordination of openly homosexual seminarians!

    Your logic is no logic at all Jon…you see… I have great appreciation for, and value the “ministerial priesthood” so much, that I want it to be as “SCANDAL” free as possible, one step in the right direction is excluding openly “gay” seminarians from the priesthood…as the Pope has already stated, that he doesn’t want young men in our seminary colleges, that have a sexual attraction toward other men.

    The priests in this archdiocese and across the country that have committed “felony sexual assault” should be in prison Jon, just like any other criminal. Jon…how do you feel about the child molester, who is a lay person, doing time in jail?…you probably think it’s appropriate and find their crime horrific…as I do…yet you don’t seem to articulate your feelings about the priests who have been sanctioned and/or arrested for sexually assaulting children in our parishes.

    Just yesterday, I was reading a transcript from a deceased priest, who was a member of a religious community…he stated without equivocation, “that priests who commit the crime of pedophilia, should only be arrested after they have been caught a second time”, after they have been forbidden to commit this sinful act, which by the way is a felony! He further articulated, that he believed strongly, that “CHILDREN” were often to blame for these acts, “because they seduce and entice the priest”….This “clergy”man, and “religious”…is the kind of priest, that I… and everyone else on this blog, should be silent about, according to your logical assessment…share no critical opinion of his gravely “maladaptive” thinking… regarding the dynamics of this socially deviant and criminal act!

    • Mark from PA says:

      Cheeseburger, how is excluding homosexuals from the priesthood going to keep the men who abused girls and young women from their abuse? Those that abused girls and boys should be removed but it is not fair to remove those who are innocent of those crimes just because of the prejudices of some. People can’t blame everything on “the homosexuals”. In regard to your comment about the priest who made the comment about children being to blame, that was certainly a crazy thing for that man to say. If a priest feels that he is being seduced by a young person and can’t control himself then he needs serious help and should seek it out. Maybe they need a course for the priests in how to deal with flirtatious teenage girls. If they have relations with someone below the age of consent, it is a crime. Thinking like that of the priest you mentioned is a part of the problem.

      • PA, your illogic is what fills society with criminals on the loose. You have to crack down on them beginning with the worst category. Homosexualism is God’s punishment for the sins of society, a chastisement for a people who refuse to follow His will. What the bishops do speaks way louder than what they say. They need to teach, but alas today’s crop of bishops as a whole operates sans much authoritative teaching, having been rejecting and abusing this gift of the Holy Spirit for several generations now.

        The first act of teaching that will get society’s attention is to clean out the perverts from the clergy. You cannot understand this because you support perverted clergy, and you rationalize it by saying that since it cannot be perfectly fixed, then it should be allowed to get worse and worse.

        • Mark from PA says:

          Skai, the Church does not teach that people that are homosexual are that way because they are being punished by God. You say that today’s bishops operate sans much authoritative teaching and have been rejecting and abusing the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That is just your opinion. Many of our bishops are surely serving God to the best of their abilities and serving the people too. Yes, they are human and make mistakes but I hope that most are good men who love God. Skai, I think you have carried some of your opinions from before you were Catholic into the Church with you.

  34. Cheeseburger says:

    Jon…what does “canon law” state regarding clergy, who sexually assault children?, the same clergy, that have taken a vow of chastity, when ordained into the ministerial priesthood ( a vow is a promise made to God at the time of ordination), “chastity” means to be pure in “thought and body” Being that you are so astute, in the interpretation of canon law…I was hoping you could share with me… and some others on this thread, the official teaching of the church, on this “socially deviant” criminal act.

    • Priests take vows of celibacy, which is a vow not to marry.

      • Cheeseburger says:

        Wrong…they take promises of chastity…not celibacy…you can be celibate and not chaste…when you are chaste, you are both…

        • Anonymous says:

          Cheeseburger, look it up. When a priest takes a vow of celibacy, which is not to marry, implicit in that is the abstinence from all sexual acts because marriage is the only legitimate use of the sexual gift.

          • Cheeseburger says:

            Chaste means to be pure in thought and in body… even a celibate can watch porn and commit acts of sex abuse… abstinence from sex is celibacy… but does not imply chastity… you look it up! A “religious” priest takes a vow of poverty, chastity and obedience… not CELIBACY!

          • Anonymous says:

            I did look it up. You are correct when you say religious priests (priests who belong to an order) take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. I was correct in the fact that diocesan priests, (also called secular priests) make promises (not vows) of obedience and celibacy. Celibacy entails the same thing as chastity.

          • Celibacy has to do with the sex act, Anonymous, not with marriage.

        • Mark, of the under aged who where molested, 20% were girls and 80% were boys. That is an enormous amount of male on male molestation considering the amount of homosexuals there actually are, and please do not give that no access excuse.

  35. Cheeseburger, again you’re wrong. Bringing back an alleged “story” that happened “many years ago” DOES NOTHING to bring justice to the victims of abuse of any kind. It does nothing to bring healing to the Church, does nothing to edify souls, it does nothing good for the clergy and the laity. The story serves no meritorious purpose.

    • Cheeseburger says:

      The story I related happened, I was present… and it was articulated to illustrate a point, Jon…you obviously didn’t get it…it deals with the abuses that stem from the seminary!…all the way to ordination, that burgeon into grave scandal, when the homosexual priest starts molesting children in the parishes they are in…these priests have admitted that they are homosexual in orientation, (not all, but many)…have you read any of the transcripts, and files that have been disclosed from the archdiocese?

      • Dan Catholic says:

        You’re on the mark, Jon. This story, even if it is true, does nothing for the victims. In fact relating this story that happened long ago lends a note of frivolity to the pain of the victims. It’s careless.

      • Cheeseburger, do you know the number of priests with a homosexual orientation who have not molested anyone? Do you know how many have led completely chaste lives? Yes, we know the number of how many victims were male. But you are dealing with inadequate data. Where I live, probably 90% of the priests could be homosexual persons. We’ve had two incidences-only one involving a minor, and that was from the ’70s.

        • Sodomy is the punishment for sins, Anonymous. So you can entrust your salvation to your homosexual priests if you choose, but I trust my salvation to holy men and women … because they know what it means.

          • Jon, I agree with you.

            Also, I must say that the Church is gifted by God with good priests. The majority of them are good.

            Sadly the Evil One so deceives the souls of many commenters here in such a way that they merely focus their attentions on the very few who have sinned.

          • What a crock, Rose. If we didn’t investigate this situation in the Church, then it would get worse. You cannot fight the devil by turning out the lights.

        • Maryanne Leonard says:

          Anonymous, I am astounded that you would say “only one” involved a minor. You refer to two incidents of priestly abuse as if it were a minor indiscretion, along the lines of eating a donut when you’re on a diet. Twice THAT YOU KNOW OF is probably 20 times more that you don’t know of, at least! Shock and shame keeps people quiet. It kept me quiet for over 50 years, and the priestly abuse I suffered involved a DEATH. Your attitude is so sick. What does it matter that the sins and crimes you speak of happened in the 70′s? The crime against me and my family took place in the 1960′s! The suffering continues in my heart to this day. I love and appreciate priests and nuns greatly to this day as well, but I was permanently harmed by a priest and am certain I will suffer the rest of my days as a result and am no longer willing to stay quiet in shame. I am building my courage to tell the whole shameful story. I fully expect to be disbelieved by people like you, which is part of what has kept me silent. Fear of denouncement for not keeping this priest’s sin quiet, and for daring to overcome my own fears and calling a sinner a sinner, even if he is wearing a frock and a priest’s collar. I dare you to try to deny the truth and the sinfulness of what happened to me, even though it was in the 1960′s. It is not, therefore, to be dismissed, any more than anything that happened this morning will evaporate into meaninglessness in the eyes of God and of righteous men and women 50 years from now.

          • Cheeseburger says:

            Maryanne…I am sincerely sorry for your victimization…my eyes welled with tears reading your heartbreaking account on this blog…you will be added to my prayer list…I have a few…one is for children and adults who have been molested and sexually assaulted by the clergy…listening to people like Jon and Anonymous and Catholic Lady… absolutely staggers my sense of decent shame and sense of reason…these folks need prayer as well…it’s easy for me to find their prattling somewhat ridiculous and even amusing…what shocks me though, is the level of denial they display…and their own inability to call a spade a spade…just baffling

          • Wrong Cheeseburger: We are not in denial. We are dismayed that a story from “many years ago” is being used in a cynical way for NO positive purpose.

          • Anonymous says:

            Maryanne Leonard, I do not minimize the abuse of minors. Or sexual misconduct of any kind by anyone. I am a survivor of it. My discussion with Cheeseburger is about his misuse of statistics and faulty logic. I stand with the church on the inadmissibility of homosexual persons to the priesthood. You are correct that we don’t know what has not been reported. It is believed that most female victims of clergy abuse have not come forward because of a fear of not being believed or of being accused of seduction or their blaming themself or a desire to prevent trouble for the priest. No one knows for sure. I do not know if my case is included in the statistics. Obviously, yours is not (yet.) I encourage you to contact the archdiocese and tell them your story. Many people go with a support person, like a lawyer. I assure you that times have changed and you will be believed and you will be treated with compassion.

          • Rule of thumb on traffic violations is one ticket for every hundred violations by the same driver.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Cheeseburger you nailed it….excellent comment from your post of February 9, 2013 at 11:53 am.

  36. Cheeseburger says:

    How do we bring justice to victims Jon?…let’s start by doing what the Pope has declared…that homosexual young men are forbidden to attend the seminary…why Jon?…because the poisoned fruit has burgeoned into grave scandal!…it’s called “sexual abuse against minors”…over 95% of whom are male!…seems to me their might be a correlation Jon… toward homosexual proclivities, and the men who sexually assaulted these children…male and female! Who by the way were ordained as priest’s, and later… many, many have admitted that YES…they are “GAY!

  37. Cheeseburger says:

    A wonderful, holy cleric…Father Gerald Fitzgerald in 1950, declared “that priest’s who molest children are not fit to return to ministry”…end quote. Father Fitzgerald founded the religious congregation, “the Servants of the Paraclete”…this wonderful religious community was devoted to operating centers that were developed to treat and assist alcoholic priest’s as well as those who committed pedophilia… Father Gerald forcefully argued, that these priests’s who were brought under control “after” treatment, needed to be “laicized” without delay! Seems that nobody listened to his astute scientific observation of this socially deviant phenomenon…

  38. Cheeseburger says:

    CCC… Article 5…Respect for Dignity of Persons/Respect for the Souls of Others…2285: Scandal takes on particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it, or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: ” Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature of office, are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and pharisees on this account. He likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing…sadly and shockingly…this was the point I was trying to illustrate regarding “faux” priests that violate the innocence of children. Somehow Jon doesn’t resonate with this analogy…

  39. Dan Catholic says:

    Cheeseburger does not get the point. Cheeseburger, describing the “story” you related, happening many years ago, is salacious. Just observe the “details” you chose to fully describe here.

    It doesn’t matter if it was true. It has no good purpose now to relate the “story” in public, when seminaries these days have done a lot of good to bring discipline to seminaries.

    If you really “have great appreciation for, and value the “ministerial priesthood” (as you said) then why don’t you visit the seminary again and see the good work they have done in bringing discipline to the formation of new priests. Then report it here.

    THAT is a more meritorious and positive story to tell. It will bring some satisfaction to the victims and to those concerned about this issue, and will help build the Church, positively.

    Do that instead of re-telling a “story” that has no positive merit for us today.

    • Cheeseburger says:

      Sadly, Dan… Cdl. Mahony and the “faux” clerics who molested children are back in the news. What you are quite content to gloss over is the gravely sinful behavior these “faux’” priests perpetrated, many of whom ARE homosexuals… and they have openly admitted it!

      You find my story salacious? How about the shocking reality that hundreds of innocent people were molested and even “buggered” by these child molesters, who have the flagrant audacity to wear a roman collar, and commit monstrous acts with innocent children. You find my my “penny-ante” story a “shock” to your sensibility… yet the misdeeds of Cdl. Mahony you will “quickly” and quietly attempt to sweep under the rug. You would sound vastly different if you were one of these victims… or a family member.

      Furthermore, his holiness in Rome, Pope Benedict the XVI, does not want anymore homosexual men in the seminary… whether or not they are actively gay is irrelevant. The modernists in the church of course don’t approve of his decision, but the traditionalistss like myself are very supportive.

      • Great point Dan! Indeed, why doesn’t he visit the seminary today and see the great work they’re doing in forming new priests? This is a much more worthy, more positive story to tell.

        Additionally, Cheeseburger is wrong. We are not “shocked” by this story.

        Rather, we are dismayed that something that happened “many years ago”– whether true or not — is being dredged up for public consumption, serving no purpose for us today but only to feed on their contempt for the clergy.

        THIS IS UNFAIR TO OUR PRIESTS — using a story from “many years ago” to denigrate priests of TODAY!

  40. Cheeseburger says:

    What Jon fails to understand is that these victim’s will struggle with anger and bitterness, probably their whole life…some will, some won’t, everyone heals differently…maybe we should also focus on what should happen to the person(s)…who are the very source of “the injustice” that was wrought…let’s start by incarcerating “ALL” of those who sexually assaulted these innocent’s…Personally, I believe Mahony should be defrocked…and given a penance… prescribed by his holiness in Rome, Pope Benedict the XVI…I can think of a number of penances, that would help expiate his “sins”…like working in a soup kitchen in downtown Los Angeles, for the rest of his life… and being given a small stipend to live on in the community, comparable to say…social security, this seems fitting, none too harsh…We are all sinners, and all can be forgiven…virtue comes sometimes in the struggle to forgive, not in its attainment.

    • Maryanne Leonard says:

      Cheeseburger, working in a soup kitchen is a joy. You are among good people who want to help the homeless and other fellow human beings struggling with adversities of all kinds, including confusion, mental illness, physical illness, great poverty, the lingering effects of abuse, and severe poverty and hopelessness. Seeing the kindness and smiles of servers result in all kinds of responses in our fellow human beings is so thrilling, I cannot tell you how great an experience it is. I think the Cardinal should definitely be asked to serve for the rest of his life in difficult ways to help his fellow human beings, but working in a soup kitchen is a joy and a privilege. The Cardinal’s arrogance would not make the suffering folks among us who are reduced to asking for a meal feel better about life or about themselves if he were assigned to serve in a soup kitchen, so he would just be causing more suffering and shame, although I admit, it might be redemptive for him to see others bring love and kindness to our fellow travelers through simple respect and concern for the wellbeing of all of God’s children. The Cardinal still needs to learn about caring for all of God’s children, as he has harmed many of us right down to a soul level. Only goodness can overcome evil, and he has not yet demonstrated to me that he is repentant for all the harm he has done us all.

  41. Cheeseburger says:

    Yeah… let’s ALL believe that we have not had any problems with flagrant and scandalous homosexual behavior in any of our seminaries… or amongst the newly ordained. Those who want to believe this are in denial… with a modernist agenda… Pope Paul the VI stated that “the smoke of satan has entered the church”…”by their fruit you will recognize them”…gospel of St. Matthew chapter 7

    • Yep, and the “smoke of satan” is the same smoke that went up from Sodom and Gomorrah and which rises from the “Great City” of the Apocalypse. The number one devil’s army at work in the world today is known as the Gay Agenda. The sodomites are the ones behind the push to grab guns. They are evil people, have influenced Vatican publications, and as far as I’m concerned the non-magisterial phrases issued by some of these Church writings such as “same sex attraction” being a condition and not a sin … is a deceptive way of sneaking in some sodomite propaganda. But the Pope has indeed clarified that no same sex attracted men should ever be allowed in seminaries or other routes to holy orders.

      • Skai, you further reveal your dissent against the teachings of the Church when you just wrote: “I’m concerned the non-magisterial phrases issued by some of these Church writings such as ‘same sex attraction’ being a condition and not a sin.”

        The teaching of the Church on this issue is clear — the homosexual orientation itself is not a sin, though it is ordered to a moral evil.

        Read it for yourself from the CDF Letter “On The Pastoral Care Of Homosexual Persons”: “Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil” (3).

        Skai, not only do you support scurrilous stories such as Cheeseburger’s that serve no positive purpose but to malign the clergy, but you also DISSENT from the Church’s teaching on this.

      • Cheeseburger says:

        The “Gay Agenda” is an outgrowth of “modernism” Skai… it is the synthesis of ALL heresies, as Pope Saint Pius the X stated… this is a truism, without equivocation…. Keep up the good posts Skai… I enjoy your clear, Catholic insight… very informative and edifying.

        • Cheeseburger says:

          Jon… your statement does not in anyway disprove the “truism” of what Skai has articulated.

        • Maybe so, Cheeburr, but only because I know from experience what it takes to confess sin and turn away from it. Although I have yet to make the “perfect act of contrition”; seems like a “good act of contrition” works pretty well though.

  42. Catholic Lady says:

    Jon, You are right my dear.

    Speaking as a modest lady, I have decided that the story about which you refer is not the kind of talk from a proper gentleman.

    Jon I give you a new title: Amator Ecclesiae.

  43. Cheeseburger says:

    Anonymous…you are also “shocked” by my story and encounter with a scantily clad seminarian some years ago?…LOL!…What I find “truly” shocking are “sexual deviant’s” who have the audacity to parade around in public, wearing a “roman collar” and behind closed doors… “bugger” an underage child, against their will…in order to quench their lust!…That my dear friend Anonymous is shocking and heart-breaking…it is the most “ignominious” act I can think of…”it cry’s to Heaven for vengeance”!

  44. Catholic Lady, thank you. I will accept this gracious title as I did the first one you bestowed—”defensor Papae,” for my defense of the Pope’s teaching against the continued use of the death penalty.

    I am indeed a “lover of the Church.” One who loves the Church will NEVER let any unmeritorious, unchaste, and salacious talk about and within the Church to pass from his lips. Lady, you are indeed gracious and Catholic.

    • jon, you are not defending anyone but serve to expose innocent souls to the dangers of the world, the flesh and the devil.

      • Cheeseburger says:

        Jon claims he defends the clergy… this is a load of rubbish… he has only defended the “modernist” clergy… who have been a source of scandal and shame to Holy Mother Church! He won’t even offer a SINGLE critical word about Cardinal Mahony and his “grave error” in not defending the most vulnerable and precious commodity in our Church… the children!… those who will “spread and live” the faith after I and others are deceased… many of these children are now LOST because of Cardinal Mahony’s decision to protect “criminal” priests at the cost of abused children… who psychologically, may never recover from the abuse that has been perpetrated against them by lecherous “faux” priests… my GOODNESS MAN… Have a moment of clarity!… When he passes away, “they” will invariably render an account for these abominable acts… “better that a millstone were hung about their necks”….

        • So now Cheeseburger “marvels” why I, jon—defensor Papae et amator Ecclesiae—”won’t even offer a single critical word about Cardinal Mahony.”

          Simple……

          Because I am not his judge. God is his, and our, judge. Not Cheeseburger.

          Because I am not Archbishop Gomez who knows more about the case than I or anyone else here does.

          Because I don’t beat on anyone when he is down. This is called “class.”

          Because I respect the sacred office that priests and bishops hold, knowing full well that they are merely human, subject to mistakes as all human beings are. Yet Christ calls us to be merciful.

          Because I respect the pain of the victims too much that I do not engage in any online denigration of anyone who may have been involved in any way of crimes. I’d rather let the courts do the condemnation.

          Because I love the Church and am saddened by the failure of any of its members.

          Because I give people the benefit of the doubt.

          Because the Cdl. has enough critics on this blog. He can do with one less.

          Because he is FAMILY, a member of the Church–the Family of God. When a family member is down, you pray for him/her, you do not further denigrate him by saying, “Why isn’t he being punished in the manner I want!”

          Because I trust in God. Straight up!

          • Jon will never go after one of his own. Cardinal Mahony is a criminal and belongs in prison and of course he basically is using liberals’ favorite line from the Gospel, “judge not lest thee be judged”. Well Jonny boy, as someone who was a victim of abuse, I will judge. Cardinal Mahony, along with Cardinal Bernadin, practically ran the Church in US for decades and allowed these pederast homosexual priests to run rampant for decades.

            Because I do not give people the benefit of the doubt, I will judge

            Because the Cdl. has gotten away with it for decades, I will judge

            Because I am not a moral coward like All liberals are. I will judge

            Because I detest what the liberals have done to the Church with their emphasis on “social justice”, I will judge

            Because I am tired of the powerful receiving compassion when they deserve punishment.

        • Additionally, Archbishop Gomez has written today a column for LA’s diocesan weeky, “The Tidings.” Among the things he wrote:

          “I have been talking and reflecting with Cardinal Mahony and Bishop Curry, along with our other Auxiliary Bishops about the events of last week. We are committed to moving forward in our ministries with hope and confidence in God’s grace….

          “And let’s ask Our Lady of the Angels to help us to draw closer as ONE FAMILY of God.”

          One Family of God, precisely what I have been talking about HERE. Good job Archbishop! You read my mind accurately!

          • Cheeseburger says:

            I trust in God as well…and these depraved clergy, who perpetrated these ignominious acts, will answer for these spiritual crimes when they pass on…this is a certainty my friend…better that a millstone were hung about their necks”….

  45. Cheeseburger says:

    Sometimes, as painful as it may be, a person has to use words that are as “hard as steel” in order to make a point… even if it’s painful, it’s for your own growth.

    • Maryanne Leonard says:

      Failure to denounce sin can be seen as sin itself. One can love the Church and denounce the sin that occurs within it. Denying sin, pretending it doesn’t exist, or condemning the reporting of sin is supportive of sin and allows it to continue, even within our beloved Church. I am sorry to learn that some of us have sensibilities so tender that our rarefied ears cannot hear the truth. Hearing it and denouncing it, followed by supporting the cleansing of our Churches of evil, is a difficult thing to be sure, but it is necessary and is holy work that simply must be done, no matter how offensive to our wonderfully refined sensibilities. I denounce the torture and killing of Jesus Christ, even though it disturbs my sensibilities greatly to hear the story of his persecution and murder. I think all righteous persons should denounce evil and stand up for goodness wherever it is found, no matter how disturbing the evil, or how small the good.

      • Maryanne Leonard, you’re wrong. No one has “pretended” sin doesn’t exist in the Church, nor has anyone’s “sensibilities” been “offended” by this story.

        What is particularly objectionable about this story is its utter lack of positive merit and good use in building up the Body of Christ. Its “gossipy” tone which seeks to elicit malicious thoughts and insinuations HAVE NO PART in the talk and discussion among CHRISTIANS!

        As I had written earlier, St. Paul had something to say about this which bears repeating again here: “Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying…that it may impart grace to those who hear…Let all bitterness and wrath and anger be put away from you, with all malice” (Eph 4:29).

  46. I totally disagree with Cheeseburger.

    Contrary to what he says, faithful Catholics refuse to “grow” in malice, contempt, and hatred for our bishops and priests which is what stories like this only help to engender. These stories do no good.

    We love our bishops and priests, and we pray for them daily, at least in our home.

    So absolutely not: we will not “grow” in contempt for our shepherds.

    It is the desire of the Evil One to separate the flock from its shepherds. Useless stories like this only help evil along and harm the faith of God’s “little ones.”

    St. John Vianney, pray for our priests and protect them from those here who disparage them.

    • Cheeseburger says:

      The “evil one” is a champion of modernism and liberalism in the Church, as well as heresy… as “modernism” is the synthesis of all heresies… “the evil one” would love for the laity to fall into error… and even champion the evil clerics, who sexually assault the innocent, advocate homosexual ordination… and turn a blind eye to sins that cry to heaven for vengeance such as “sodomy”…Please, make no comparison of holiness to Saint John Vianney and the likes of Cardinal Mahony… that is a shock to my sensibility.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Good luck Cheeseburger of course The Rose would come in to comment, The Rose is one of jon’s supporters….

    • Rose, you are not reading of malice or hatred for clergy, but of discernment of their deeds and what needs to be done about it.

  47. Cheeseburger says:

    Jon… what is your opinion of the priest/pedophile molestation nightmare that has afflicted our Church for so many decades? And who is at fault? Do you feel Cardinal Mahony should answer for any of his failures?

    One more thing… how should the pedophile/priests and clergy answer for causing children and adults to leave the faith? Causing children and adults “YEARS” of emotional distress? Who answers for those who caused this to befall the innocents? Answer that. You see Jon I am a Catholic, a “traditional” Catholic, who loves his faith… you validate and support bad clergy and fallen bishops… NO MATTER HOW DEPRAVED AND WORLDLY THEY HAVE BECOME!

  48. Cheeseburger says:

    Jon… maybe you can counsel and share your piety with some of the priests who have sexually assaulted hundreds of children… share with them, “that society is unjust” …anyone who is critical of this sexual perversion is not a “defender of the faith”.

  49. Cheeseburger says:

    Also Jon… aka “defensor Papae”… are you aware that sodomy is a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance? Maybe the fallen pedophile priests, who sexually assaulted our innocent children in our Archdiocese, should make a retreat… and after they have concluded the spiritual retreat, they should be defrocked, laicized and as a penance work on “skid row” serving victuals to the homeless, who are our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

  50. Cheeseburger says:

    One more thing… I have met a couple of these “salacaious” “faux” priests that Jon champions. His efforts would be better served championing those who are seeking to rebuild their faith, after it was comprised by the “very” priests that this thread, and others are discussing. One more thing… I do not recognize these lecherous pedophiles as “priests” …like “defensor papae does… uh-uh… they are modernist, deviants, who should have NEVER been ordained to contaminate and pollute Holy Mother Church, and victimize our precious children.

  51. Cheeseburger says:

    These “faux” priests who “buggered” innocent young boys will answer for these abominable and ignominious acts! Their sins “cry to heaven for vengeance”! None of Jon’s “faux” apologetics will be able to reconcile that which is inevitable.

    • Cheeseburger says:

      Don’t try to equate the holiness of a man like St. John Vianney with the likes of Cardinal Mahony or the “faux” priests that have been sanctioned and incarcerated for sexually assaulting children.

      • Anonymous says:

        Once again, good Catholics, faithful Catholics, the Catholics who take the time to learn and study the faith, Catholic news, reports etc are being verbally abused because they don’t agree with the opinion of someone who admits they are not in conformity with the Catholic Church. I don’t blame other posters for not wanting to get into the mess. I don’t blame the priests who post on this website for not wanting to involve themselves in it. I don’t blame CCD for posting it because it is honest. The number of Catholcs who really try to learn the faith is small.

      • Good point, Cheeburr. Emphasizing it some, when Jesus was on the Cross, He was seen by many people as appearing to be “sin”. Some souls cannot see the difference between holy souls who have been plastered by sin and souls who are filled with vile deeds. That is why they cannot discern the difference between the Cdl. Mahony’s of this world and the Saints of both this world and the world to come.

  52. From Phil Lawler’s commentary: Cardinal Mahony, Archbishop Myers keep the scandal alive, Cardinal Mahony’s sad apologia

    “A final thought: Please say a prayer for the repose of the soul of Bishop John D’Arcy, who lost his battle with cancer last Sunday. While serving as an auxiliary bishop of Boston under Cardinal Law, Bishop D’Arcy wrote several notes urging the cardinal to recognize the damage being done by predatory priests. Those notes reportedly irked Cardinal Law, who used his influence to have Bishop D’Arcy appointed head of the Fort Wayne-South Bend diocese, nearly 1,000 miles from Boston. Years later, when the files of the Boston archdiocese became public, those same notes showed Bishop D’Arcy to be one of the few points of lights in an otherwise gloomy portrait of episcopal neglect and malfeasance. May he rest in peace.”

  53. Cheeseburger says:

    It is common knowledge that for many, many years the seminaries in this country and abroad were hotbeds of modernist teaching and were teeming with homosexual men, actively involved in this “gravely sinful behavior”. This information is amply supplied on the internet from ex-seminarians, ordained “real” priests and various religious, from a number of religious communities, in this country and throughout the world.

    Those who say otherwise are in serious “denial”. This is one of the reasons that the Church is now forced to deal with the “pedophile tragedy” that has befallen Holy Mother Church. I sincerely pray that these seminaries are turning around… and I believe they are under the holy, spiritual guidance of our Holy Father in Rome, Pope Benedict the XVI.

    One more thing… I am a former religious. I have firsthand experience viewing this shameful, unholy behavior… this is one of the reasons I am no longer in a religious community! My wife and I continue to pray daily for Archbishop Gomez and all priests and religious… that they will comport themselves in a manner that gives “glory and honor” to our Creator. Those priests who have broken their vows and commit grave sacrilege also need prayer… that is sometimes the struggle, to pray for the “faux” priests who have been a source of derision and shame… and the reason for this scandal. As I have already stated, these men should never have been admitted and certainly NEVER ordained into the ministerial priesthood.

    Pray that our seminaries become holy “seed plots” for future priests… who will bring spiritually hungry souls to our altar rails.

  54. Well, the dust has settled on this story, somewhat, and the facts are becoming clearer, specifically that the handling of Cardinal Mahony is really no different than how we’ve seen the way other bishops in these situations were handled. It’s business as usual, nothing much has changed. I’m not blaming Archbishop Gomez, I’m sure his hands are tied. Over the last five years, I’ve heard from two friends and a priest friend of mine, who have connections at the Vatican, that they’ve been told that Catholics in the U.S., especially in the Los Angeles and the San Francisco archdioceses, are on their own. Now, of course the last time I heard this was before Archbishops Gomez and Cordileone were installed.

    Why are these shepherds (bishops) not punished, even after it has been discovered that they’ve fed the littlest of their lambs, from their flock, to the wolves? Could it be that they know of other sins committed by other shepherds over the years which is what is protecting them from the punishment they should be facing?

    • Yes, probably so, Loraine, that they hold on by extortion. We also should continue to press investigating to find out the handlers, the networks of perfidy, and the groups and individuals who work these cabals of infamy. No way Carinal Mahony was the king of his own realm … some group bought him; who? The real Church needs to find out.

  55. Cheeseburger says:

    Cardinal Mahony’s explanation for his inexplicable inability at removing these known pedophiles from active ministry is unconscionable… his apology is “hollow”. Still, I personally feel his explanation and apology are self-serving… unless attorneys who represented the victims of sexual assault by his clerics had not filed suit against him and these social deviants who were masquerading as diocesan clergy, he would NEVER have come forth to address the “malfeasance” that he is guilty of. It took attorneys and journalists and SNAP and the outcry of victims… ALL of these forces converging simultaneously before he came forward to express some small admission of guilt in this tragedy. I am still in such a state of shock, I am frequently brought to tears over this… almost… just incomprehensible, to this day.

    • Cheeseburger, so you know the heart and mind of Card. Mahony and why he and Card. Law both acted as they did? Those lawyers, reporters and especially that phony outfit called “SNAP” are all frauds. The Boston Globe SAT on their story of the homosexual activities for over six years before they “broke” their story, a fact that the AG in Mass. ignored and did not press charges against them for aiding and abetting those criminal “priests”. How many of those “victims” in SNAP were truly abused and how many of those victims that sued were telling the truth? Not very many for sure and many of the true victims learnt how to forgive as Jesus taught us in His Lord’s Prayer, something that you don’t seem to have done. I have two cousins (brothers) that were molested by an homosexual priest and both have forgiven this priest for his horrible actions. None of us have the right to judge any priest as this is only for Jesus Himself and He will judge you just as you keep judging His sons. +JMJ+

      • Cheeseburger says:

        JMJ… do you know the mind and heart of the victims that were assaulted? Your logic has been turned inside out! Since neither of us are professional mind readers, I stand by the word of the “victim’s”… always remember, JMJ, “where there’s smoke, there’s fire”… also, in a more biblical context, “by their fruits you shall recognize them”… Gospel of Matthew Chapter 7:15-20

  56. Cheeseburger: No one has come to the defense of your retelling this story. And the merit of this story for us today has been my consistent point throughout.

    Your “straw man” argument that I am thereby defending criminals and molesters is just that — a “straw man,” a “red herring.” You have put up a straw man in order to deflect my main argument, which is the appropriateness and merit of this “story” from “many years ago” to the building up of the Church today.

    Your latest comment is that seminaries become holy places. That’s right. Stories like what you told many comments ago DO NOT HELP to that end.

    Nor do they boost the morale of present-day seminarians in that very Seminary you targeted. God bless those seminarians today at St. John’s in Camarillo.

  57. Dan Catholic says:

    There is no such thing as a “faux” priest. A man is either validly ordained or not. And no one here, least of all Jon, has defended abuse by laity or by clergy.

    Nor do we deny what may have happened in seminaries in the past. No one is in denial here.

    What we have been talking about is the negativity and the lack of any good which stories like Cheeseburger’s spread in the Body of Christ. Judging by the manner in which the story was told, it does seem that the intent was to elicit titillation, ridicule, malice. These are not good.

    Jon you’re doing great. Keep it up.

  58. “Self-abandonment to Divine Providence” is an excellent work that is available online. Also, praying a Hail Mary before one posts, really paying attention to “pray for us sinners, now…” seeking to conform to the will of God, would be an excellent practice.

  59. Cheeseburger says:

    Jon is being very disingenuous… I have no contempt whatsoever for the clergy… I have a great deal of CONTEMPT for a man who was ordained, calls himself father, and wears a roman collar and is so steeped in evil that he would sexually assault a child. I have a great deal of admiration and respect for all priests and religious who faithfully honor their vows… live chaste holy lives, and do not become a source of “grave scandal” in the Church… Jon’s disordered logic would have the laity endorse ANY and ALL scandalous behavior that these “faux” priests display… it’s a little hard to have much admiration and respect for “wayward” clergy who break their vows and assault the laity… “by their fruit you will recognize them…” Matthew Chapter 7:15-20

    • Maryanne Leonard says:

      I stand with Cheeseburger. My story is more astounding perhaps, but it is not something I will refrain from telling when I have the courage and strength to tell it all. I see no dishonor in telling the truth, and I perceive in Cheeseburger’s telling of his story the same motivation I have for wanting to tell mine: that it is the truth, it is troubling, I feel the need to be divested of it, others should know the truth if for no other reason than to be alert to what can happen to innocent Catholics and to do what we can as Catholics to prevent such things from happening to others in the future. To persecute someone for telling the truth is not unheard of, but it is not becoming for a Catholic to do so. Just because the stories make us uncomfortable is no reason for those of us who know the truth to have to continue to hide the truth out of our own discomfort, embarrassment, or fear of the Jons and others of this world casting aspersions upon US, the victims. To keep silent is to give the perpetrators tacit approval of their misdeeds and to allow their illicit behavior to increase. To speak the truth is to risk being Jonned, and thus revictimized, but the world is full of people who will Jon you, and even accuse you of having bad motivations for exposing the wrongdoing of others. Whistle-blowers are often maligned, but that doesn’t make it right. Those who cast stones upon the truth tellers place themselves in a postion they suppose to be superior to that of the truth teller, but they deceive themselves in so doing and in general do not convince outside observers that their position is correct or supportable. Cast stones at me if you will for standing with Cheeseburger. I stand for truth even when it comes in high cholesterol wrappings; truth is truth, and truth is worthy even when it brings up words and deeds from which we recoil in horror and incredulity for a while. Anyone who denies truth is standing with the perpetrators. Methinks a bit of the casting of stones here could be coming from those with same sex attraction, defending the actions of their own kind, merely out of identifying, although that is something I can’t state for sure. If it is so, then we have yet another example of why Pope Benedict, in his wisdom, has decided to ban men with homosexual tendencies from our seminaries and the priesthood. It is difficult to see truth through a perspective of defensive attitudes brought about by continuing experiences of severe social rejection and years of learning about how to live a lie. I believe if society learned to be more like Pope Benedict and see the human being as lovable while rejecting the disordered behavior that same sex attraction generally leads to, homosexuals would be less likely to see their fellow homosexuals as always being in the right, even when in the wrong, and castigating people such as Cheeseburger who tell the truth about them.

      • You’re wrong Maryanne Leonard. The truth is the WHOLE STORY of an event, unvarnished and devoid of personal interpretation. What you heard from Cheeseburger is a one-sided version of a “story” that has NO POSITIVE MERIT for the Church of today. It merely seeks to elicit (as Dan said) titillation, malice, contempt. Just read the manner in which the story is told: it reeks of maliciousness.

    • Catherine says:

      Good post Cheeseburger!

    • Were you molested or otherwise abused when in religious life? Were you the only straight person? There must have been some difficulty for you to leave.

    • Jesus called his annointed Temple priests “sons of the devil” and called them “sons of the father of lies, and a murderer from the beginning” … which is exactly what they are: they deceive and they push abortion. You sodomites ought to check out Revelation’s description of the “great whore”, the “beast”, the “anti-Christ” and the “false prophet”. It would be for you like looking in a mirror. It is a horrible sight, of course, and you can always delete it by making a good confession, act of contrition and receiving absolution in the Confessional. Give it a try, or fry: your choice boys.

      • Anonymous says:

        Last post. Isaiah 55:8-9 Humility is the virtue where a man sees himself for what he is and submits himself to God and his fellow man. It is necessary to be humble in order to attain to the other virtues. God bless everyone and grant to each of you the grace of humility through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Excellent comments Cheeseburger

  60. Cheeseburger says:

    I use the term “faux” figuratively…not literally… I am sorry that Dan and “Defensor Papae” were unable to grasp the figurative and not literal application of the word… these two bloggers appear solely fixated on the seminary story… interesting in that they have spent no time defending/supporting the Cardinal or his priests that were found guilty of sexual assault… rather his fixation is on me and my seminary story… as distasteful as it may be to them, it actually happened… maybe it wasn’t prudent of me to disclose it on this blog, so I apologize for that.. but at this point an apology probably won’t work because their hostility is solely focused on me… probably because they know the truth of the matter and are angry that I brought it up… in either case, if you were offended, I apologize yet again… my impressions concerning Cardinal Mahony and the rather duplicitous manner in which he has handled this tragedy is what has really concerned me… you see, I am not the “priest convicted for sexual assault”… your efforts would be better spent in listening to other learned Catholics… who also have a very sound understanding of her teachings and her history… Believe me, I and everyone else wants the best for our Church… and for the faithful… that starts by having good priests and “religious” on board, who cease bringing grave scandal for our enemies to revel in.

  61. Cheeseburger says:

    Still…Jon has never addressed a single question I asked of him…I don’t think he ever will…

  62. Cheeseburger says:

    I guess the news and victims should all disappear…never should any of these “crimes” come to light…as they happened so many years ago…in fact 2-3 decades ago… everyone should just forgive and forget…after all… no good can come of these stories…they only seek to harm the Church…wrong again Jon… you would have these “spiritual crimes concealed”…as it may bring shame to the Church… wrong again Jon, Cardinal Mahony and these pedophile priests were the instruments of this shame and harm…not the media, not the attorneys, not me…and certainly not the victims… I really wonder what your agenda is, in light of all that has been discussed Jon…hopefully, I have cleared up any ambiguity about my particular position… if not, just ask me.

  63. Cardinal Mahony belongs in prison. Though I am not certain about the technicalities of convicting him of obstruction of justice, or aiding and abetting a felon in commission of a crime, he certainly is as morally bankrupt as many people put behind bars. The man is a criminal in the eyes of God, unless there are some mitigating factors of which I am unaware.

    That being said, I find myself uncertain what kind of punishment the church should levy. Certainly, Cardinal Mahony should never again hold any kind of authority in which he is trusted to safeguard the well-being of children.

    The deeper question is to what extent the church is willing to confront the fact that multiple church authorities independently made the same deplorable (and morally reprehensible decisions) with respect to their pastoral duties when faced with clerical abuse of children. This reality reflects a problem within church culture, which has led so many pastors to fail in their duty in a similar fashion.

    • This is what happens when under the influence of someone like Cardinal Bernardine, Cardinal Mahoney, and others who do not strive and teach to be holy, but strive primarily for the temperal things of this earth.
      The Church needs to clean her own house.
      Good Catholics will not follow Bishops who allow the abuse of children to flourish.
      Good Catholics will not follow Bishops who interject their own political ideas pretending they are Church teachings – like Bishop Blaire and the USCCB regarding Nazi & Communist like gun registration which is only a step away from gun confiscation. This is NOT Church teaching, and is resented when being passed off as such.
      Bishops need to by EXAMPLE and by WORDS – stick to the teachings of the Church in the CCC, Code of Canon Law, General Instruction of the Roman Missal, and most importantly the Bible.
      When Bishops are disobedient to the Magisterium, they set the example for disobedience to them.

  64. Cheeseburger, your views are condemned by the Lateran Council (1139) as heretical. I speak specifically of your views from February 5th at 4:01 pm where you called the liturgy of the Church “diabolical.” I also refer to your denigrating and disrespectful comments made throughout this thread concerning priests and bishops validly ordained by the Church.

    This attitude which disrespects and denigrates the sacraments, liturgies, and ministers of the Church of any age is HERETICAL, as taught by the Lateran Council. READ BELOW.

    “Those, moreover, who pretending a kind of piety condemn the sacrament of the Body and Blood of the Lord, the baptism of children, the sacred ministry and other ecclesiastical orders.…we drive as heretics from the Church of God, and we both condemn and we command them to be restrained by exterior powers. We bind their defenders also by the chain of this same condemnation” (Canon 23).

    • Maryanne Leonard says:

      Cheeseburger, congratulations! You’ve been Jonned as a heretic too! I am in good company now. I haven’t read a word of yours with which I do not agree, except your thinking that perhaps you should apologize for telling your story. It made a lasting impact on you and points out a problem that did indeed once exist. I truly hope and believe that things are far, far better at St. John’s Seminary now, and people attending there have assured me that there are no such problems there now. However, I can’t personally attest to that, except to report that when I attend lectures and presentations there and speak to people in important positions, I am confident they are good people and faith-filled, sincere Catholics. I hope and believe that I am correct, that things have changed greatly there, and I hope elsewhere. Pope Benedict has set the right course for us in these matters so far, and I hope he will see fit to handle the Mahony scandal with his usual masterful touch as well. I would love to see Cardinal Mahony defrocked and tried in a criminal court, but more importantly I would love to see him truly repentant, and not for being caught, but for the horrible harm his actions allowed to exist and expand. I would love to see him grasp the truth of himself, repent, and ultimately be saved. That is for Jesus to deal with in the future. Both the Church and our society must deal with this situation without special favors being granted due to Cardinal Mahony’s high ranking. Perhaps the best we can hope for in the short term is that those among us who are horrified and truly concerned for our innocent children and their suffering families will openly dare to denounce his actions and risk being Jonned as heretics by those who obviously support and will tolerate any behavior whatsoever from a person with a collar.

    • jon, be careful.
      Respect for the office of Bishop and Priest is critically important.
      But respect and obedience for the sinful actions of bad Bishops and bad Priests must never be condoned.
      In addition, Bishops have no business interjecting their own beliefs which do not adhere to Church teaching, and/or have nothing to do with our Faith and Morals.

      The Code of Canon Law has been updated on more than one occasion by the Church with the last time being 1983.
      Since the Church instituted Code (Church Law), the Church can change it through the Magisterium.
      The current Code # 23 states: “Can. 23 Only that custom introduced by a community of the faithful and approved by the legislator according to the norm of the following canons has the force of law.”

      By actively supporting Canon 915, Canon 1399, and 1 Cor 5:11-13, we teach the guilty, the confused, and the unknowledgable – regarding grave and non-negotiable sins.
      We prove that we believe in the Body and Blood of our Lord – the Real Presence, and that sacrilege against Him must stop.

      I must say that your quote from the Lateran Council condemns many Bishops who do not enforce Canon 915, Canon 1399, and 1 Cor 5:11-13.
      Only Diocese Bishops can enforce these.

      • Cheeseburger says:

        Jon doesn’t get it… there are bishops who teach “liberation theology” from the pulpit… advocate it… even after it has been condemned as “heresy” by his Holiness in Rome…

    • Cheeseburger says:

      wrong…I said “dancing women in spandex”, moving about provocatively was diabolical… when they dance in a seemingly sensual and unholy manner, before “the tabernacle”… I and many others were scandalized…

      You, Jon, had best be careful denigrating people as heretics… you are not in an ecclesiastical position to condemn anyone for heresy.

  65. Catherine says:

    “Methinks a bit of the casting of stones here could be coming from those with same sex attraction, defending the actions of their own kind, merely out of identifying, although that is something I can’t state for sure. If it is so, then we have yet another example of why Pope Benedict, in his wisdom, has decided to ban men with homosexual tendencies from our seminaries and the priesthood.”

    Maryanne Leonard, Methinks you have hit the nail on the head.

    • Jesus was (and obviously still is) “He who is without sin”, and He “cast (caste) the first stone”, namely St Peter, the Rock.

  66. Traditional Catholics, in their morning and evening prayers, include the Acts of Faith, Hope, Love and Contrition. This is the Act of Love: O my God, I love Thee above all things, because Thou art all good and worthy of all love. I love my neighbor as myself for the love of Thee. I beg pardon of all whom I have injured and I forgive all who have injured me.

  67. Cheeseburger says:

    Jon is fixated on me….fixated on the seminary experience I had…if I’m a heretic Jon…what is a priest that sexually assaults innocent children?

    • A priest who sexually assaults little children is not a heretic. He is a pedophile and, Catholicly, he is unfit to be a priest. He is removed from public ministry.

  68. Cheeseburger says:

    Still….Jon has never answered a single question I have asked him…wonder why?

  69. Cheeseburger says:

    The “clergy” I am critical of are those who celebrate the “sacraments” and wear a roman collar… and have been found guilty of sexually assaulting minors.

    • No one who has been found guilty of sexually assauting a minor can publicly identify themselves as a priest, which includes wearing priestly dress. Since you put the word sacrament in quotation marks, I am not sure what you are referring to. They are not to celebrate Mass publicly. They are still priests and can say Mass but only for themself.

      • What Cdl. Mahony should do for his penance is rat out all those involved in his network.

        • Cardinal Mahony did not cooperate with the civil authorities until he was ordered to do so or go to jail by the Courts.
          His penance must be for his own sins, and the sins of others in which he cooperated.

      • Mass is valid only with two or more present, right, k?

        • Holy Mass is valid and licit if said with only the priest (and who knows how many angels). It is strongly prefered to be said with a congregation but it is not always possible, such as in a case where a mission priest must travel between vary remote locations.

  70. In his comment on February 9th at 4.43pm, Cheeseburger has apologized twice for telling his “story.” He writes “it wasn’t prudent of me to disclose it on this blog, so I apologize for that…. in either case, if you were offended, I apologize yet again…” I therefore leave behind this matter of the appropriateness of this useless story (which is my only point in this part of the thread).

    Why have I focused on the Seminary story? I met at least two of the many fine seminarians from St. John’s at the Walk For Life in SF a couple of weeks ago. A group of them drove from Southern California to stand up for the unborn. They love the Church, they love the priesthood. And I thanked them for their vocation.

    It does NO GOOD to the morale of our seminarians there to see the name of their Seminary being dragged through the gutter unfairly for a “story” that happened “many years ago.” At a time when good seminarians and priests need the laity’s encouragement, some folks drag unfairly the name and reputation of our Catholic institutions.

    Seminarians from St. John’s in Camarillo, if you are reading this thread: know that your school has been valiantly defended here. And I had good company in doing so in Dan, Catholic Lady, and Rose. We support you and your vocation.

    Lastly, the matter of calling the liturgy of the Church “diabolical” remains an issue (for it is HERETICAL), as well as the continued bashing of the office of bishops and priests. You may disapprove of the crimes of the guilty as I do, but in doing so some of you have denigrated their offices as well. Some have even condemned at least one of them who has not yet even been charged and tried. This is irresponsible.

    • Mark from PA says:

      Jon, that is good that you defend the seminarians from St. John’s. I will take you at your word here. I don’t remember anyone calling the liturgy “diabolical.” If so I hope that it was a thoughtless error. Nobody should say such a thing about our Catholic liturgy. I don’t think some of the posters here are bashing the office of bishops and priests but the actions of individual bishops and priests. As a young person I thought that all bishops were holy men but sadly I don’t feel that way now.

    • Pope Paul VI announced that Satan had entered the Church, and this means the hierarchy. Thus whatever the Vatican generates is suspect … by implication of that Pope. So, to say the new liturgy is diabolical is simply an argument which needs to be rebutted … jon does not know how to rebutt it. Perhaps the charge is accurate … how would jon know for sure? If it were not the case that jon is himself the living magisterium he probably would not know for sure.

    • jon, no one has bashes the OFFICE of Bishops and Priests. We need and must have holy Bishops and Priests for the Sacraments and to teach and adhere to Church teachings as stated in the Bible and CCC.

      You are confusing SOME INDIVIDUAL Bishops and Priests who do not do their duties — versus the Holy Office they hold.
      Their duties are stated in the CCC and Code of Canon Law, etc.

      We should pray for all our Bishops and Priests.

      Regarding the OBLIGATIONS and Rights of all the Christian Faithful:
      Code of Canon Law – “212 §3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.”

      • Paul, your quotation from Canon Law contradicts the behavior and action of many here. The Canon says “to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinions.”

        It does not say to bash and lambast our shepherds in a public way on the internet which only brings added scandal.

        • Cheeseburger says:

          Cardinal Mahony scandalized the Church by protecting known sexual predators, who were ordained (though they never should have been), and members of the ministerial priesthood… this is the seat of the “SCANDAL”, Rose… not people “expressing” their feelings concerning the fallout from it! The “clergy” who sexually assaulted children and buggered little boys are the source of this grave scandal and shame… perpetrated under Cardinal Mahony’s watch… “by their fruits you shall recognize them”… Gospel of Matthew: Chapter 7 15-20

          • By bashing priests and bishops here, publicly, instead of approaching and complaining to them directly as Canon law stipulates, you may be adding scandal upon scandal.

    • jon, the man apologizes and you attack him for it?

  71. Cheeseburger says:

    The shame and harm that has come to our holy Catholic faith was not done by any of the victims of “clergy abuse”… uh-uh… Cardinal Mahony, who shamefully concealed and “hid” known felons who committed sexual assault against children, has brought grave shame and scandal to our Church… the defrocked priests, who shamefully abused their office as a member of the ministerial priesthood, have been the vile instruments of this scandal and shame! …these abominable acts they have perpetrated are so ignominious and shameful… they “cry to heaven for vengeance”!

  72. Cheeseburger says:

    Starting on Ash Wednesday…my new handle will be Balistoides conspicillum…the scientific name of the clown triggerfish…just call me “Balis” for short…

  73. Cheeseburger says:

    Jon…one of the depraved clerics on the bishopaccountability.org…was busted for molesting his niece in the midwest, many years ago…this degenerate wore his roman collar years ago, in downtown Los Angeles, he told me that he had “blessed” the condoms of some prostitutes he encountered …I knew him personally… he was one of the most shamefully, scandalous priest’s I have ever met!…He has since passed away…I can only imagine his painful expiation…

  74. Cheeseburger says:

    This phenomenon in the Church is called “diabolic disorientation”… liturgical dance and the rest of this mumbo-jumbo is so shocking and revolting that it is scandalous to behold and divides the laity and faithful… and this is what has been called “diabolic disorientation” in our Liturgies… the Tridentine Mass is magnificent… holy and always edifying… at my parish the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated in a solemn, reverent, holy way… my wife and I leave our parish every Sunday feeling renewed, reinvigorated and spiritually fed… our holy pastor is a gentle saintly soul… a “true” innocent and never EVER would anything like women in “black” spandex” with incense bowls be scene cavorting in a “wiccan/pagan” like manner in front of the blessed sacrament, which is housed in the tabernacle!

    This to me is UNHOLY… and is gravely sacrilegious… Sister Lucy stated this, and that is why Pope Paul the VI proclaimed in a sermon in 1972, to the whole world, that “the smoke of satan had entered the church”.

  75. Marshall the Surfer says:

    What ‘burger wrote was not heretical, not by definition, or any other way, shape or form. Never did he deny any article of faith that was a dogma of the church. He said that the liturgy he was at seemed diabolical because of the spandex clad women who were dancing about the altar and in front of the tabernacle. I believe he said it seemed sensual and pagan… words to that effect. I’ve read every single post for the last few days… nope, zero heresy. I suggest that Jon read the definition in the current cathechism that defines what does and does not constitute heresy, because by calling people heretics, you may very well be guilty of bearing false witness against your neighbor, the ninth commandment.

    Furthermore, it’s common knowledge that the seminary in Camarillo had a serious problem with homosexual behavior and among its seminarians 10-20 years ago. Facts are facts, pure and simple. In defending Cardinal Mahony, he was found to be concealing information and critical documents from law enforcement, concerning priests in his Archdiocese, who were known sexual predators, in fact a number were convicted of these crimes after he was aware they were caught committing these crimes in the past. He’s fortunate he’s not in jail, or the state penitentiary, for obstruction of justice and maybe more.

  76. Cheeseburger says:

    BINGO MIKE!…Guess what my wife and I shockingly witnessed at the liturgy of the conclusion of the Anaheim Catholic Congress last year?

  77. Cheeseburger says:

    Jon has still never addressed any of the questions I asked him a couple of days ago…I don’t suspect he ever will

  78. Marshall the Surfer, you are mistaken. First of all, Cheeseburger does not mention any one dancing in spandex when he wrote that the liturgy of the Church is “diabolical.”

    Secondly, If the priest celebrant intends to celebrate the Sacrifice of Our Lord in the Eucharist, and if the matter and form are correct (that is, correctly saying the words of consecration and the bread and wine comply with the requirements for Mass), then the Mass is valid, whatever the other lay participants are doing, whatever else may be going on in Mass. Liturgical abuses don’t make the Mass invalid if the matter and form are compliant. Even the holiness or lack of holiness of the priest does not affect the validity of the Mass.

    To say, as Cheeseburger did, that the liturgy is “diabolical” because of lack of holiness of the priest or because the lay people are doing something not licit at the Mass is another heresy called Donatism which was condemned by the Council of Arles in 314AD.

    Jon, I agree with you.

  79. Cheeseburger says:

    Modernism is the synthesis of “ALL” heresies…Pope saint Pius the X

  80. Mike and Cheeseburger, you may have committed another heresy, the heresy of Donatism.

    Regardless of the merits of the priest, the sacraments are still efficacious in transmitting the grace of God if the priest satisfies the requirement to say the words of Christ at the consecration. By extension this may even encompass other liturgical abuses at Mass. Abuses at Mass are wrong, but if “the matter and form” are correct, the Mass is valid.

    The Church teaches that God uses imperfect human beings, imperfect priests, even imperfect liturgical participants, to transmit His Divine Grace. Thank God for that!

    • Cheeseburger says:

      I never said the mass was not VALID…just that it appeared diabolic, due to the “spandex” clad women, dancing about provocatively.

      • But Cheeseburger, just the fact that you called the Sacrifice of Our Lord “diabolical” for any reason is in itself a heresy.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Cheeseburger I understand what you mean, some people just love to sin by mixing up what you really wanted to convey. God have mercy!

    • There is a limit to how bad the priest can be before the Sacraments are not valid. So far no one has come up with the answer to this challenge.

    • vox, you are indeed distorting Church teaching, which is more and more apparent with each of your posts. Your insinuation that the Church teaches that imperfect people is what God wants is downright dishonest. God has called us all to perfection, and the moreso for the clergy especially the more elevated they become. Shepherds cannot save sheep by being imperfect. You theology skewers need to do some serious reflection.

      • Skai, vox is absolutely right and Helen as well. The heresy of Donatism has been condemned by the Church. No matter the state of the soul of the priest, the sacraments he celebrates are valid.

        This does not mean that priests should lower the bar, but instead it shows the radical love of God for His people. He uses imperfect human beings to carry out his plan and will, regardless of ourselves. May God be praised!

  81. Marshall the Surfer says:

    Somebody stated that nobody should say, write or do anything that would scandalize or bring shame to the Church. Couldn’t agree more. It’s too bad that Cardinal Mahony and his clergy that were involved in the molestation of 500 plus victims, didn’t get the memo…

  82. Cheeseburger says:

    Liturgical dance has been FORBIDDEN!…yet clerics in this country continue to illicitly allow liturgical dance at the mass! The mass is valid, the problem is due to the illicit activity during the liturgy, such as the spandex wearing women, flitting about with bowls of incense…it looks pagan and is revolting!…and this does NOT constitute heresy…

  83. Marshall the Surfer says:

    Sorry Helen, went back and read burger’s posts, all of em’…nothing seems to constitute heresy, just that he was shocked by scandalous behavior that he witnessed at the congress in Anaheim…you need to go the Catholic Catechism and read the definition Helen. Be careful…lest you be judged

  84. Cheeseburger says:

    Maybe I should have contacted the Papal Nuncio at the Vatican after I witnessed this “illicit” and shameful behavior at the liturgy I attended with my wife at the conclusion of the Catholic Congress in Anaheim last year. Just another shocking example of “modernism” manifesting in our Holy Church…

  85. Sorry to have to inform you again Cheeseburger, but when you called the liturgy of the Church, the Eucharist itself, as “diabolical” for any reason whatsoever, this is heretical. Even if the reason you give is “pious”– as the Second Lateran Council says, condemning the Mass by calling it “diabolical” is a heresy.

    • Cheeseburger says:

      The shameful acts were “illicit” by definition… let me clarify my position “vox”…the liturgy I was present at, and the sacraments, were “valid”… what I meant to say was that the shameful dancing was viewed by me as “diabolic”… this was at the beginning of the liturgy… this is called “diabolic disorientation” …the mass was valid, the dancing was ‘illicit” and forbidden by Rome itself… look it up… also a grave and shameful abuse transpired, the Sacred Blood was carelessly spilled by one of the Eucharistic ministers when they went up into the stands with the cup of Sacred Blood… I hope I have cleared up any and all ambiguity.

      • So Cheeseburger, to make your position even more clear, answer this question.

        You wrote on February 5th at 4.01pm the words, “when Cdl. Mahony endorses and partakes of this diabolical liturgy.”

        Because your words were public, don’t you think that you should now categorically state publicly that you apologize for describing the liturgy as “diabolical” and that you made a stupid mistake?

      • How certain is it that the sacrament of the Eucharist was valid. There is a point of infamy where it would not be valid. I previously posed this question on one of the threads on this site, but no one responded. There was some discussion on this issue a few years ago, but those bloggers have been absent lately.

      • It is best to expunge the word “diabolical” in any of your description pertaining to any Mass.

        There is nothing demonic and diabolical in a valid celebration of the Eucharist. The dancing may be in bad taste, but calling it “diabolical” is not acceptable in accordance with the Lateran Council.

        • Cheeseburger says:

          No vox…the dancing was illicit, and scandalous and was viewed by me as diabolic…

        • So, foxy voxy, at what point in an evil priest’s descent into the depths of sin would you say that his liturgy is not real? Have you ever heard of a “black mass”? When would you say that the transition from real Mass to black mass occurs with an evil priest?

          • Skai, in order to answer your question, why don’t you just take the Catholic Encylopedia and check out the definition of Donatism.

            The efficacy of the Sacraments do not depend upon the impeccability of the priest, or even on what the the lay participants are doing or wearing, even if they are wearing spandex and dancing. NOPE. The Sacrament would still be efficacious and valid, not diabolical, provided the matter and form required for the Sacrament are met.

        • vox = voice

          excusare = to exonerate,” from Latin excusare “excuse, make an excuse for, release from a charge,

          Voice of making excuses,

          It would be better to expunge bad or rotting apples as well as expunging your own obvious ability to ignore scandal and remain in a comfortable state of denial. This is the same kind of skewed reasoning that allowed the scandals to remain protected, excused, and hidden.

          “Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.”…Mark Twain

          Vox Veritas Vita (“Speak the Truth as a way of Life”). “Veritas vos liberabit” (“The Truth Will Set You Free”)

          It is surely “diabolical” when a costumed devil with red horns distributes the Blessed Sacrament to trusting families and innocent children and the homily includes, “At such and such parish you are able to receive Communion from the devil.”

          Please do not say, “Oh, this was in the past” because the distortions of Church teaching continue.

          It is also wrong when the same perpetrator or perpetrators of dissent continue to methodically distort Church teaching.

          Please reread Maryanne Leonard’s earlier posted words. “Anyone who denies truth is standing with the perpetrators. Methinks a bit of the casting of stones here could be coming from those with same sex attraction, defending the actions of their own kind, merely out of identifying, although that is something I can’t state for sure. If it is so, then we have yet another example of why Pope Benedict, in his wisdom, has decided to ban men with homosexual tendencies from our seminaries and the priesthood.”

          • Cheeseburger says:

            Vox and Jon and Dan are living in a childlike state of controversion…the “truth” is so shocking…only denial and prevarication are left for them…

          • Catherine, it is wrong to add scandal upon scandal. A few bishops did not report abuse timely. Indeed this is scandal.

            However, for the laity to then start bashing this misdeed online, anonymously, instead of going to their Chancery to complain, is another scandal being created. It is always a scandal for the lay person to disparage their shepherds publicly. Check out Canon 212, article 3.

      • When you put words in quotation marks, it means that they have a different meaning than what is normal understood or that you are quoting someone. Your posts are difficult to understand. Ignoring the quotation marks seems to be the only way to render you post that makes sense.

  86. Cheeseburger says:

    The Novus Ordo liturgy is valid, The Tridentine liturgy is valid… “liturgical dancing” is forbidden!… yet many priests and bishops defy the Pope and Rome itself when they illicitly allow this shameful presentation into the sacredness of the liturgy… this is “diabolic” and is an outgrowth of modernism!

  87. Cheeseburger says:

    You know what I read by a very holy Catholic priest…”A good confession is more powerful, then even an exorcism”…

  88. The fruits of liturgical dance can be seen each year at the Folsom Street Faire.

  89. Cheeseburger says:

    “Material heresy” is a heresy that a person may commit through almost no fault of their own… stating an error concerning the Church on matters of faith and morals, without understanding that they have issued a heretical statement… “formal heresy” is when a person “has full understanding of a truth” on matters that are dogmatic within the Church, and teaches that which is in opposition to it anyways!… an example would be, for instance, a priest teaching that all people go to Heaven… and Hell is a fallacy, doesn’t really exist… this is “formal heresy”… What Jon, Vox and Helen are describing is completely WRONG… nobody is advocating “Donatism” on this blog, or any other such nonsense… one of them had to seek out this information… it is rather obscure and most Catholics are not aware of its history and when it was falsely taught… I even had to look it up… and I thought I knew most of the major heresies in the church… once again, what I have spoke was and is not heresy… not even “material” heresy, by definition of the Church, which is articulated in the Catholic Catechism…

    • Usually people who throw labels which have subtle understandings do not know what they are talking about. Those who know, don’t use labels for their main conveyance; rather they explain in clear simple language. Obviously the various heresies consumed a lot of souls and a lot of time before their main thrusts were put to rest: Some blogger looks up the word Donatist and then figures he or she can slap that label on something they don’t agree with … ain’t how it works folks. Go read St Augustine to find out how such subtleties are dealt with using intellectual and spiritual discernment. Think about it: Heresies such as Luther’s and Calvin’s, and Arias’, etc all mislead millions of Catholics. Islam misled tens of millions of Catholics. How is it then that someone can read a few words on one of the heresies and then know that some blogger fits that description? Blogging is not a 500 page doctoral dissertation; it requires effort to understand what the blogger is trying to convey. If the blogger is normal, honest and not agenda driven such as the Alinskyites, then you simply find a way to ask that blogger. In other cases where there is an agenda, and the blogger has been tested over and over again and continues to post false arguments, then what the hay, you simply jump on them and stomp.

      • I disagree. A heresy is a heresy, whether material or formal. Calling the liturgy “diabolical” is a heresy condemned by the Second Lateran Council.

        Whether or not a person understood what he was saying is what the words “material” and “formal” are distinguishing.

    • Good approach, Cheese; excellent insight into ” one of them had to seek out this information… it is rather obscure”. Why would someone pull some obscure notion out of a hat? I smell smoke.

      • Let us put things in perspective here.

        From my reading of the comments here, it was Cheeseburger who was repeatedly throwing the “heretic” label at priests and bishops.

        I say it was a good point by Jon. “How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” (Luke 6:42).

        Great job, jon.

        • Cheeseburger says:

          Wrong…I never thew around the heretic label Rose…that was you and Vox and Jon…calling you “disingenuous” would be charitable…I can assure you…actually, prevarication is more the word

          • I hate to inform you but you did. Check your previous posts. Your accusing bishops and priests of heresy is plain for all to read.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            The Rose always at it’s schemes! There is a big difference…there is twisting of what people say or there is the actual direct comment…why can’t you go back and quote the time and date since it is you who is throwing the accusations…it is on you to prove it, not on the ones you accuse!

          • Since Abeca has challenged me to quote date and time, then I will. Cheeseburger has been calling bishops and priests as advocates of the “modernist” heresy on his posts from Feb 5th (4.01pm), Feb. 6 (9.55am), Feb. 8 (8.45), Feb. 9 (1.11pm), and Feb. 9 (12.59pm). His throwing unfairly the “heretic” label is well-documented here.

  90. Cheeseburger says:

    Cardinal Mahony has shuffled known pedophiles around the archdiocese even after he knew they had committed these sexual crimes against children… he is guilty of malfeasance, and much worse.

  91. Marshall the Surfer says:

    Catholic Cathechism 2089: “Incredulity is the neglect of reveled truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. Heresy is the post-baptismal denial of some truth, which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of of the catholic faith, schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff, or of communion with the members of the church, subject to him”.

    Some modernists are so far removed from the teaching of Holy Mother Church, many embrace heresy — without even realizing they are heretics.

  92. Cheeseburger says:

    I believe that the only place “liturgical” dance is allowed in the liturgy is in the Zaire rite… if performed at any other liturgy, it would then be done illicitly. I am not 100% clear or certain of this…maybe someone can weigh in…

  93. Heresy has to be pushed with intent; otherwise it is merely a typo.

  94. Fishhead, you must be doing something right, because they’re pelting you with all kinds of trash.

  95. Cheeseburger says:

    Jon has still not answered my question… I asked who was to blame for the priest pedophile problem that tragically has befallen the archdiocese and the Church.

    He wants mercy and forgiveness for these depraved priests who have sexually assaulted innocent children, but doesn’t believe justice or punishment should be dispensed for these gravely sinful and criminal acts they have perpetrated… they may not answer here… but when they die they most certainly will… “better that a millstone were hung about their neck”….

  96. Marshall the Surfer says:

    I wonder if Cardinal Mahony will ever come forward and admit that his malfeasance as Archbishop has been the source of grave scandal within the Church. He chose to conceal these crimes. Some legacy he leaves behind. In the wake of this scandal, we have hundreds of spiritually and psychologically traumatized adults, who have been scarred for life. Wonder why he won’t come clean?

  97. Rose, I stated that bishops and priests have taught and advocated liberation theology… many still do… it has been condemned by the Pope as “heresy”… it has been condemned… yet some still preach and advocate its integration… if the shoe fits… furthermore, I said that “modernism” was the “synthesis of all heresies”. These are the words of Pope St. Pius the X… wrong again as usual Rose. I called Cardinal Mahony a “modernist”… not a heretic.

  98. Barramundi says:

    Rose has been peddling her Donatism “heresy” mumbo-jumbo for the last couple of days… it’s an obscure, almost forgotten heresy from the 4th century, which was squelched of course… now she believes the bloggers on this website have resurrected it!… ROTFLOL!

  99. Barramundi says:

    Furthermore Rose, even if a person on this blog committed “materiel heresy,” it is not grounds for excommunication… and is not a mortal sin. In fact, it may just be an oversight, and is not culpable of a “sin”… in either event, the act is not punishable, nor grounds for “ipso facto excommunication… I suggest you contact a canon lawyer.

  100. Barramundi says:

    Cardinal Mahony has given grave scandal to the office of Archbishop… this man actively concealed the criminal behavior of homosexual, pedophile priests from law enforcement for yeeears!

    This was done to preserve the “status quo”… and maintain the “old boy homosexual network”… it was called the “lavender mafia”… This man’s spiritual crimes are so ignominious, they are almost incomprehensible… “by their fruits you will recognize them”. Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 7:15-20

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