‘All our detractors can do is call us names’

San Francisco archbishop Cordileone talks to English Catholics
Archbishop Cordileone

Archbishop Cordileone

The following comes from a January 28 story in England’s Catholic Herald.

If you had no idea that Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone is an Italian-American who had four Sicilian grandparents, his hands would give the game away. From the minute we start talking in the parlour of the London Oratory, he gestures with his fingers and swirls his hands for emphasis. I even wonder whether, if his hands were tied, he would be able to speak.

But speak up he must. Now, as archbishop of San Francisco, he is one of the most vocal members of the US bishops’ conference in objecting to the re-definition of marriage.

Promoting marriage is not a new mission for the shepherd. As a newly ordained diocesan priest in California, he confronted the situation of preparing young couples for marriage who were not always fully practising their Catholic faith. Then, as a veteran canon lawyer of the Apostolic Signatura, his speciality was the legal points of marriage. This month he was invited to London in his capacity as a member of the working group on the liturgy for the Anglican ordinariates. Archbishop Cordileone’s contribution is to bring the perspective of a canon lawyer and a pastor. This was especially helpful in preparing the rite for marriage that will be used by former Anglicans who are coming into the Catholic Church, so that their traditions are incorporated into the marriage ceremony, while it remains an entirely Catholic and canonically correct rite.

The 56-year-old is a native of San Diego and grew up in a strong, inter-dependent Italian-American family, with his paternal grandparents living next door and his maternal grandparents a few miles away. During his childhood he was in constant contact with his grandparents, who spoke the old Sicilian dialect with his parents, as well as with his entire extended family on both sides. They didn’t keep every feature of life from the old country; as he says, “our generation lost the old Sicilian language”. But the family remained loyal to the traditional pieties of Sicilian Catholicism. St Joseph was the focal point of their devotions.

On the feast day of Jesus’s foster father they set up an altar in their home with his statue and three loaves of bread to represent the Holy Family, which included a braided loaf of bread for Our Lady. They would stage a drama of the Holy Family coming into the home, with a young girl as Mary, an older man as Joseph and, on several occasions, the young Salvatore was in role as Jesus.

The archbishop says there was never a time when he struggled with his faith or did not believe in God. He did, however, feel the stirrings of a vocation, while also feeling drawn to being a husband and father.

“My main challenge in seminary was interior, in discerning if this was really my call,” he explains. “When I entered the seminary at the age of 19, in 1975, I felt strongly inclined in that direction but was not yet absolutely convinced that God was calling me to be a priest. It was when I gave my life totally to God, I felt a burden was lifted from my shoulders, and had the confirmation of my vocation to the priesthood.”

At seminary he developed a keen attachment to St Peter Claver, a favourite saint whose courageous ministry to African-Americans and radical holiness has inspired him throughout his 30 years of priesthood. Now, as a member of the Church hierarchy, he continues to pray to the patron saint of slaves, for “commitment to the Church’s mission and for graces to help the poor and marginalised”.

As Archbishop Cordileone was a seminarian in the 1970s, the obvious question is whether he inclined more to the spirit of rebellion of that time or if he held true to the Church’s time-honoured teachings.

“I’m quite a law-abiding type who doesn’t have a problem with authority,” he says, “but more than that, the Church’s teachings are completely rational and made sense to me.”

It was the time of the Humanae Vitae wars: did he have any problems with any of the details in the most resisted encyclical of the age? No, in fact, in 1978 he and some fellow seminarians travelled from San Diego to San Francisco so that they could attend a symposium held by the archdiocese in honour of the 10th anniversary of Humanae Vitae.

After he was ordained in 1982, he was assigned to St Martin de Tours church, near where he had grown up, which was a very friendly parish. This was, however, the era immediately after the sexual revolution and as a young priest starting out he found it difficult to know what to do when couples who were living together wanted to be married in the Church.

“To begin with, I was naïve enough to think that people would follow reason, and I would say to couples that, if they wanted a Catholic wedding, were they not aware that they were violating Catholic teaching by cohabiting? They would respond that it was ‘special’ to get married in the Church. But I learned that you can’t make a blanket policy; you have to look at each case separately. You have to know the couple well first, and pick your moment for asking that they live separately before the wedding. One couple had coped with a lot of addiction problems and had come very far in their journey of faith very quickly, and they didn’t have family close by. So I was concerned that asking them to live apart would jeopardise the progress they had made so far. But instead I asked them to sleep apart before their wedding, and I believe them when they told me they did.”

After he finished his stint at St Martin of Tours, he was sent to Rome in 1985 to study canon law. The 1983 code had been promulgated, and he was one of the priests selected to go to Rome. It was while studying at the Gregorian University that he got to know the future cardinal Mgr Raymond Burke, when the Wisconsin-born prelate taught a course on jurisprudence. Archbishop Cordileone says that Cardinal Burke was the same then as now, “very gentle and gracious, wise and holy”.

It is often said that Cardinal Burke and Archbishop Cordileone were colleagues, collaborating on projects together for years at the Apostolic Signatura, but in reality this was not the case. Fr Cordileone started at the Vatican’s canonical court in early 1995, just as Mgr Burke was leaving to return to America. At the Apostolic Signatura, Fr Cordileone’s main duty was to advise bishops on their tribunals, especially regarding annulments of marriage on grounds such as “psychic incapacity”, which refers to an instance where a person may not be capable of understanding what they are committing themselves to in marriage. It was no mean feat that he had responsibility for all the English-speaking countries and select Spanish-speaking countries.

Having earned his stripes at the Apostolic Signatura, he returned to California and became an auxiliary bishop of San Diego in 2002. A new chapter in his priestly ministry began when he was asked by a group of lay people to offer Mass in the Extraordinary Form. An elderly Augustinian priest, Fr Neely, taught him how to offer it. Archbishop Cordileone is quick to add that the task was made easier because “I only had to learn the rubrics. When I worked at the Apostolic Signatura, I would go to a Benedictine convent to celebrate the Triduum. There I learned to sing the Mass in Latin and the chants are the same in both forms of the Mass.”

For nearly 10 years Archbishop Cordileone has accepted invitations to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. In the middle of our interview, the Oratorian priest Fr Rupert pops in and asks the archbishop if he will offer the 8am Tridentine Mass the next day, and he enthusiastically agrees to do so. Commenting on what he feels distinguishes the Extraordinary Form, Archbishop Cordileone says: “With that form of Mass you can feel the Church breathing through the centuries.”

He has strong opinions about Latin. “It is the common language of the Catholic world and it’s especially advantageous when people of different language backgrounds come together,” he says. “The irony is that the Church made the move to the vernacular just at the point in history when, because of migration and tourism, people began travelling all over the world. Thus, it would be convenient to have a shared language that we can all worship in. But it does make sense to have parts in the vernacular, such as the Propers and especially the readings.”

We get on to discussing why there is a relatively high number of young men pursuing vocations in seminaries dedicated to the Extraordinary Form. “The Old Rite corresponds more to a masculine spirituality in that the masculine psyche is one that protects, defends and provides, and during the Mass the priest is the one who dares to approach God to reconcile His people to him. In the Old Rite there is a greater sense of the priest as intercessor, offering a sacrifice for the people and bringing God’s gift to the people.”

While women may not become priests, Archbishop Cordileone clarifies that women do not in any way occupy second place. Instead, he pinpoints why women should be shown the highest respect and says that chivalrous practices such as holding a door open for a woman ought to be the norm. “A woman should walk out, ahead of the man, because she is the life-giver and, in holding a door for a woman, the man is recognising her special place as the one who gives life.” He says that mantillas, or chapel veils, are a way for a woman to veil their sacredness: “In Christian worship what is sacred is veiled, women are sacred because they are the life-givers.”

Why are the youth associated more and more with the Old Rite? “It follows the phenomenon of young people being more traditional in their religion,” he says. “In the years after the Council there were social revolutions in religious groups and the thinking was that the Church should be more like modern culture. Prayerfully minded young people of this generation want something different or opposed to secular culture. But they perceive the failures of western civilisation. They want something seriously Catholic and meaty.”

He does say, however, that being drawn to the external beautiful trappings of Catholicism is not enough. “We won’t deepen their faith by window dressing. They might be attracted to externals and there’s nothing wrong there, but we also have to bring them to a deeper faith.”

People are quick to say there is something staunchly “traditional” about Archbishop Cordileone. He says the rosary every morning. He traces many modern-day problems back to the secular doctrine that discounts the differences between men and women (the specific confusion, he explains, is that men and women are conditioned to think of themselves as the same and not complementary). And he loves the Tridentine Mass. But he sees a potentially dangerous trend in the traditionalist movement, if it simply wants to revert to a distant time in the past and stay there. Here, Archbishop Cordileone refers to Ronald Knox, who called this blinkered outlook “an impoverishment of our heritage”. But where does one find a happy medium between the old and the new? He hails the London Oratory, with its Ordinary Form in Latin and frequent Benediction, as “the ideal model of the hermeneutic of continuity, which has been so consistently promoted by Pope Benedict”.

Other than being a leader in liturgical renewal, Archbishop Cordileone is best known as the chairman of the US bishops’ subcommittee for the promotion and defence of marriage. He was appointed to this position in 2011. Since then, he has earned the ire of many gay marriage campaigners and his appointment to San Francisco was met with sharp words from some outspoken progressive locals. From our point of view in Britain, we may think the gay marriage lobby is surrounding Archbishop Cordileone on all sides, but support for him often outnumbers the opposition. On his installation day, October 4 2012, there were reportedly a maximum number of three dozen protesters outside. But many more people came to show support, chief among them being members of the Neocatechumenal Way, who held banners proclaiming: “Teaching the Truth about the Family.”

If people of Italian blood sometimes have a reputation for being hot-tempered, Archbishop Cordileone defies this image by being unflappable. He consistently uses level-headed logic in arguing against same-sex marriage.

He says: “Truth is clear. Wanting children to be connected to a mother and father discriminates against no one. Every child has a father and a mother, and either you support the only institution that connects a child with their father and mother or you don’t. Adoption, by a mother and father, mirrors the natural union of a mother and father and provides a balanced, happy alternative for when a child may not be reared by their biological parents.”

I tell him that I’m searching for good theological answers against gay marriage, but he corrects this notion by saying: “If you use theology, you will play into their hands and they will say you use religion to control people. Marriage isn’t primarily in theology; marriage is in nature. Theology builds on the natural institution, giving us a deeper mystical and supernatural sense of its meaning.”

I admit that I didn’t step up to the plate when Channel 4 invited me on live television to debate gay marriage, because I didn’t want to become a hate figure. I feared my career would suffer and I wouldn’t be able to pay my rent. The archbishop sighs and responds: “You say that you can’t debate it without suffering for your beliefs, so who is being discriminated against? Who is being intolerant? It is the secular orthodoxy that allows no dissent and will punish those who do.”

When I concede that I feel like a coward for passing up the opportunity to argue the case for marriage on television, Archbishop Cordileone says: “It’s a lot easier for us priests to speak out. Fellow clergy are not going to marginalise us. And we’re not going to be passed up for a promotion or lose our jobs!”

While speaking out may be less daunting for priests, he encourages lay people to embrace the challenge, which for us in Britain means actively opposing the forthcoming gay marriage Bill. Archbishop Cordileone urges us to see it as a way of winning grace. “Fighting for marriage is our way of loving God, and the struggle is the particular gift that God has given our generation. This is our particular trial, and by overcoming it we may achieve spiritual greatness. It will entail suffering if we are to oppose gay marriage, something which poses such destruction to the understanding of natural marriage, which is a child-oriented institution.”

Archbishop Cordileone cautions against over-using the term “gay marriage”, advising that it should be used “only sparingly” because it is a natural impossibility and if we keep talking about gay marriage we might fool ourselves into thinking it is an authentic reality, which only needs government approval to make it legitimate. He compares it with another impossibility: “Legislating for the right for people of the same sex to marry is like legalising male breastfeeding.”

To read the original story, click here.

 

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Comments

  1. An Italian-American that had 4 Sicilian grandparents? That would make him a Sicilian-American.

  2. Abeca Christian says:

    Archbishop Cordileone is older than my husband and I, but when we met him and he gave us a blessing, we always noticed a humble and youthful innocence about him. He is still young but comes off younger with his humility and holiness. God bless him always. Praise the good Lord for him!

    • Abeca Christian says:

      God bless this holy Archbishop! He shines in Christ because of His loyalty and love for Christ almighty!

      As it says in 1 Peter 2:12: “Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.”

      “Now if thou wilt hear the voice of the Lord thy God, to do and keep all his commandments, which I command thee this day, the Lord thy God will make thee higher than all the nations that are on the earth.” — Deuteronomy 28:1

      “That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world.” — Philippians 2:15

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Can we be honest today? Can we stop lying to ourselves? We want to believe that one person holds all the power in the world to fight the good fight! It will take our support, our prayers, our devotions and love to give this wonderful Archbishop Cordileone the blessings from our Lord, to help Him do what Christ has willed for him to do.

        It is a given folks, if one is near him, the faithful needs to be there too at his side to continue to pray for him and encourage him. The devil is looking for cracks to get in, lets seal those cracks up with the blood of Jesus with our prayers and devotions, our faith, and actions.

        The Lord is great! The Lord is GREAT! Do we believe? We must be believers, not putting our trust in men but in Christ through men! “It is good to confide in the Lord, rather than to have confidence in man.” — Psalm 118:8

        This wonderful holy Archbishop needs our true loyalty by honoring God and uniting with Him in Christ to fight the good fight, so it won’t tear him down nor tire him nor to get him to fall prey to it nor to bow down to it due to caving in because of lack of courage or strength recalling those great words in holy scripture :

        Jeremiah 17:5: This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.”

        Turn away from sin and have zeal to follow in the footsteps of the Lord, surrounding yourself with godly people who love the Lord with all their might, so that together, the light of Christ can shine! Obey those in charge who are good and holy, for that is God’s holy will for His church. Do not cast thy pearls unto swine!

        • You have a duty to pray and support your own bishop, then the other bishops of the church and, of course, the Holy Father.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            During Mass we pray for our local bishop, our Pope etc. We pray for our bishop during our rosaries, etc.

            Some treat Catholic as sounding like we have a duty to everything… I think that our faith is not a big rule book but it is something that is real and faithful in the truth. May the Holy Ghost lead us.

  3. All of us are blessed to have Archbishop Cordileone, even those of us not living in the San Francisco area. His holiness, teaching and experience will reach all of us. His education and intellect are balanced by his devotion to the practice of his Faith. His long work to strengthen Catholic marriage and help couples approach marriage with the proper attitude could become a textbook for young people. Being born and growing up in a traditional Catholic home and a large extended family has provided him with the strength he will need in this difficult assignment. We should pray for him every day.

  4. Thomas Edward Miles says:

    Very interesting! As a native San Franciscan, Welcome!!

    • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

      TEM,

      You amaze me, of course you know that Archbishop Cordileone is absolutely opposed to active homosexuality and all the other evils that come with it!

      God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
      Kenneth M. Fisher

  5. Slowly but surely the Catholic Church is beginning to recover some of the lovely things she discarded immediately after Vatican II. I am very hopeful that His Excellency will contnue to restore all things in Christ. He is a true shepherd who will not lead his sheep astray. Let us pray that our Holy Father appoint more bishops like Archbishop Cordileone. The Church of our grandparents is not dead and gone. She has been mortally wounded by Satan, and only by suffering, prayer and sacrifice will she become healthy again. I personally believe that Almighty God has chosen Archbishop Cordileone to challenge us to live up to our precious Catholic faith. Ave Maria Purrissima!

  6. Good man, good bishop. We’re fortunate to have him.

  7. An Icthyologist says:

    I wish all Bishops were as pious, balanced and Catholic as this man… I can think of a number of liberal, modernist bishops, who quietly support the liberal, “gay” agenda… Our holy Church should be full of Archbishop Cordileone’s! God bless him. My wife and I will pray for him and all the Bishops and clerics of the world, especially those who have lost their way, they need our prayers the most…

  8. An Icthyologist says:

    I wonder how the liberal, “gay” Catholics of San Francisco feel about this wonderful holy “prince of the Church”?

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      Icthyologist: I’m not sure that liberal gay Catholic of San Francisco emote together. But he is not a prince of the Church. He is Archbishop of a small city. SF Archbishops are rarely created Cardinals, at least not while being its ordinary.

      • A prince of the Church is a bishop who whose secular counterparts are princes. This is a European concept, and we live in the United States which excludes such titles. The Church is not inherently European, and this assignment of royalty to its clerics can be blown away any day especially in the USA. If one studies the trajectory of man under the guidance of God, one finds that God does not prefer a monarchy as an ultimate governing principle. Thus, I have zero regard for this European hang over of monarchical tendencies. Stick with Jesus through the Holy Sacraments and you won’t have to deal with any bishops other than to correct them when they err.

        • There are 61 separate paragraphs with the word “Bishop” in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.
          These are only 4:

          CCC: “1560 As Christ’s vicar, each bishop has the pastoral care of the particular Church entrusted to him, but at the same time he bears collegially with all his brothers in the episcopacy the solicitude for all the Churches: Though each bishop is the lawful pastor only of the portion of the flock entrusted to his care, as a legitimate successor of the apostles he is, by divine institution and precept, responsible with the other bishops for the apostolic mission of the Church.”

          CCC: “1594 The bishop receives the fullness of the sacrament of Holy Orders, which integrates him into the episcopal college and makes him the visible head of the particular Church entrusted to him. As successors of the apostles and members of the college, the bishops share in the apostolic responsibility and mission of the whole Church under the authority of the Pope, successor of St. Peter.”

          CCC: “888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task to preach the Gospel of God to all men, in keeping with the Lord’s command. They are heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers” of the apostolic faith “endowed with the authority of Christ.”

          CCC: “896 The Good Shepherd ought to be the model and form of the bishop’s pastoral office. Conscious of his own weaknesses, the bishop … can have compassion for those who are ignorant and erring. He should not refuse to listen to his subjects whose welfare he promotes as of his very own children… The faithful … should be closely attached to the bishop as the Church is to Jesus Christ, and as Jesus Christ is to the Father: Let all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ follows his Father, and the college of presbyters as the apostles; respect the deacons as you do God’s law. Let no one do anything concerning the Church in separation from the bishop.”

  9. California is lucky to have Abp. Cordileone. May he be promoted to Cardinal.

    Thank you Fr. Neely, the elderly Agustinian that taught Fr. Cordileone the Old mass. Deo gratias.

    • Promoted to cardinal?

      I have one word for you: notgonnahappen!

      Unless he moves to a more prominent archdiocese such as Los Angeles.

      San Francisco is too puny and has never had a cardinal.

  10. God bless this dear man. His humility and love of obedience to the Lord shows in the fact that although he is like the Elder Son in the Prodigal Son in that he has always been with the Father — the Lord and His Church — he feels no animosity nor jealousy toward the prodigal son who is turning homeward, and he instead is willing to help him. Also, his attitude toward women I find pleasing and very Biblical. It reminds me of the time I was taking back a tuxedo my husband had rented in the early 1960′s, and as I got on the elevator dressed in a skirt and blouse or a dress, an elderly gentlemen tipped his hat toward me. It made me feel like a queen, and reminded me to act like one — with virtue and honor by the grace of God. Men still open the door for me quite often, and I for them when they are in need with full hands. As G.K. Chesterton once said, “The grace of God is in courtesy,” and indeed it is so. As the French say about men and women, “Long live the difference.” May St. Thomas More pray for Archbishop Cordileone and us, and may the American people support the family and both fathers and mothers for all children and marriage between one man and one woman for life. Believe me, it will bring down blessings on this country and help our economic situation immensely for good families are the foundations for good countries.

  11. We are SO blessed to have him as our Archbishop!

    An answer to our prayers, and I know there were a lot of us praying for such a shepherd!

    And let us all continue praying for him daily.

    As a 4th generation San Franciscan, welcome ABC :)

    • Hey, that is is GREAT acronym for our new archbishop: A.B.C.

      Especially given the fact that he, like most successors of the apostles, will have to teach the A B C s to some Catholics who are not too bright.

  12. An Icthyologist says:

    I’m sure the “gay” modernists don’t approve of the stance the Archbishop has taken, especially on same sex marriages… In reading the book of Genesis, it says God made Adam and Eve…not Adam and Steve… same sex marriages are an abomination, pure and simple. Men were never intended to sodomize each other, this is a sin that cries to Heaven for vengeance, it is so shameful and disordered! Saint Paul says, “Their shame is their glory”. Those who wish to indulge in this perversion are in a grave state of mortal sin… Even the creatures that comprise the animal kingdom don’t commit this bestial act, and they are ANIMALS!

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      Dear Icthyologist:

      If you recall your genesis story, just as there were no Steve’s, there were also no more women. Ever wonder how humanity survived?

      But I digress… when you say that “even the creatures that comprise the animal kingdom don’t commit this bestial act, and they are animals!”. Well this contains several points of dispute:

      -actually several species are known to be attracted and form pair bonds with others of the same sex

      -why just this week there was a report of a guy who gave up his dog for adoption because he saw him hump another male dog and was so homophobic he didn’t want a gay dog

      -we are animals too, I hate to break it to you. Scopes trial come to mind?

      • An Icthyologist says:

        Humanity survived by Adam’s children procreating… that’s how my friend… not by buggering each other… one more thing, we are not “just” animals… we have immortal souls… animals do not… Christ redeemed man, not the creatures of the Kingdom Animalia… they didn’t need redemption as they never transgressed… your revisionist history and understanding of the book of Genesis is quite remarkable… wonder where you learned it? You should go back and read why the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, “fellow catholic”… while your at it… look up the “sins” that cry to Heaven for vengeance… one of these is sodomy sport… just thought my might want to know…

        • An Icthyologist says:

          Animals are not intrinsically homosexual… not a single ethologist would accept your load of rubbish… dogs will hump a fire hydrant… I doubt very much that they are suffering from a form of “sexual paraphilia similar to “pygmalianism, found in debauched man! Bears, dolphins and creatures of higher form, do not form “sexual bonds” with other same sex partners… you’re delusional beyond words. They are motivated to procreate through a series of instincts, formed over eons of time. Many, like the Orca, are monogamous and mate with one partner for life, most humans don’t even do this! Homosexual behavior is a direct result of “sin”… original sin… an outgrowth of the evil one…

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Let me clarify my prior post… I may have been unclear. I didn’t mean to say that “animals are intrinsically homosexual”, though I see now why it appear I might have meant that. I meant to say that is several species, their appear to be individuals who are essentially homosexual (or, in some cases, bisexual), in that they perform same-sex sexual acts or they form same sex pair bonds, or both.

            In the case of fruit flies, there are a number of genetic variants which clearly demonstrate this behavior and can be quite deftly manipulated. I’m not saying that the behavioral genetics of flies is at all similar to what would be going on in humans, but the notion that animals only attempt mating with opposite sexes is provably false.

            By now, many penguins and dolphins are very well known to form long term pair bonds with others of the same sex, though so far as I know, the genetics of that behavior are not yet understood.

            You may be unaware of this science, but please don’t call me delusional. Debate the facts, please, and if you want to call someone fishy, start with yourself please.

        • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

          An Icthyologist,

          Chances are that YFC learned all of that bunk at the REC!

          God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
          Kenneth M. Fisher

      • YFC, you may have made yourself into an animal by denying your eternal soul, but that is just you talking your silly head off. As for animals, they are incapable of sin. But you can never achieve becoming an authentic animal incapable of sin, no matter how perversely you try.

    • “Their shame is their glory,” I believe, is Saint Paul talking about men who thought being circumcised made them superior.

      Saint Paul tells them not to focus on their “shame” (that is, their private parts), but rather to focus on salvation which Jesus offers us as gift. Not because we get circumcised, and certainly not because we avoid pork, but simple because Jesus LOVES us and wants us to live accordingly.

      • An Icthyologist says:

        wrong… they “reveled and boasted of misdeeds” and that which should have shamed the evildoer became his source of “sinful glory”… had nothing to do with circumcision… nice try… “Their shame is their glory.”

        • Just checked some Bible commentaries and they seem to agree that Saint Paul is talking about the Judaizers of the time:

          “Their god is in their bellies,” refers to them claiming one must follow the Jewish dietary rules.

          “Their glory is in their shame,” refers to them demanding that even the Gentiles must undergo circumcision (OUCH!) to become real Christians.

  13. Juergensen says:

    May God give strength to this bishop of Sodom.

    • Anonymous says:

      What does God do with a prayer like that?

      • God rolls his eyes when he sees a prayer like that, then reaches for the Excedrin.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Anon ask Abraham and His nephew… they know all to very well… they knew…..

        • Abraham negotiated with God to spare Sodom if there were 10 righteous men in it. He asked God to spare the Sodomites for the sake of the righteous. ALL the men of Sodom came to molest the visitors staying at Lot’s house. So only Lot was spared.

          • Not ALL the men.

            Lot was a Sodomite, a resident of Sodom, but he and his family didn’t get smitten. Love that word — smitten.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            You guys need to study your bible in the truth, not in the way you go about it.

  14. For the record the AB made a very uncalled for remark today regarding gay marriage and it will interesting to see how he justifies the remarks as there is already a backlash – Another transfer to Rome perhaps? -

    • An Icthyologist says:

      yeah right sport… anything you say. Are you one of those guys who wants to get married to his boyfriend?

      • No, I do not support gay marriage but I expect a church official of his stature to think before he says something as undignified to his office as the last sentence of the above interview and ending with “legalizing male breastfeeding” – Shame on him – Also, if this is the way he feels then he should say it to the people of San Francisco in St Marys Cathedral — and not an English TV station.

        • Eric, there has already been a man who calls himself transgender who is trying to breast feed his son. I do not know how he is trying to do it, possibly by being injected with female hormones, but it was reported on Yahoo News and many other websites several months ago, so before you blame the archbishop for what he said, you need to get your facts straight. Just look up “transgender man breast feeds son”.

          • Trevor Mac Donald of Canada who was a woman who had a sex change operation to become a man now wants to be a group leader for the La Leche League, which consists of women who support breast feeding. Although “Trevor’s” breasts were removed in his sex change, he/she is trying to nurse his/her son. This is a very “confused” person to say the least and a very sick, sick situation in which no child should have to grow up. These are the horrible situations to which the good archbishop refers.

          • Anne T, that’s not the point I was making – The stuff you refer to is sick, sick and sick — My point was a individual of his bearing should choose better ways to make his point.

        • Eric, no need in Catholicism to deploy Puritanical ideas.

          • Eric, I think the archbishop did just fine. It is impossible to please everyone. There was nothing wrong with his bringing up the fact that some are so confused they are mutilating themselves so badly trying to do the impossible, and that we should not encourage such behavior. Archbishop Cordileone is not perfect, any more than I am but probably more so than I, but his interview was just fine as interviews of human beings go, and he told the truth, although some do not like to hear the truth, it needs to be told.

        • I understand now, Eric, that you felt his expression was too vulgar, but what some people are doing to their bodies with these sex change operations IS pretty vulgar and downright horrifying, and there are those who encourage them in their behavior. It is better that it is stopped with a somewhat vulgar expression than to be allowed to continue with others encouraging it, and the archbishop saying nothing about it.

    • At least I think that might be one of the cases to which he refers. Evidently, he knows some are trying to do it.

      • It’s not illegal for a man to breastfeed. And it is not totally physically impossible for males to breastfeed. (There have been anomalous cases of it but they are very rare. Stuff happens.) It was not a perfect simile, but give him a break. He meant that the human body is made a certain way (and again, there are anomalies.) Marriage requires the act of consummation of a male and female. Two bodies of the same gender cannot do that. Same gender couples want to define marriage as two people (or more), any gender who make some kind of public commitment to each other. The church says marriage is more than that. It is much more than that and there is a spiritual element to it. I disagree with the Archbishop — I think it is extremely important to discuss that aspect of it in the public square because it is an opportunity to evangelize. We must remember that there are 100 million unchurched people in our country. You may face an argument that you are using religion to control people, but it may be one of the few times the Word of God will present itself to someone who has never heard it. And I believe that the more you honor God the more he will bless you. God never changes. Any accurate theology you can get talked about in the public square is a plus. And, besides, we are really using religion to free people, not control them.

    • Hey, Eric dude, sometimes you just simply have to take the bull by the horns and hold on til you win. The Church now will be taking on language by the horns and wrestling it into something that is intelligible, say for instance, the documents of Vatican II. Maybe I’m jumping the gun at the wisps of smoke I see rising in almost imperceptibally thin columns, but action long awaited for may have begun … hopefully it does not evaporate … Abp Gomez has thrashed Mahony and Curry, and now Apb Cordileone has tossed a gauntlet of plain language across the bow of the pirate ships that obscure the Barque of Peter. Read the Bible, Eric, and see how God intends language to be used.

      • An Icthyologist says:

        well said Skai… rock on.

      • An Icthyologist says:

        YFC… my friend, my friend… their is no biological precedent for creatures in the animal kingdom to actively seek and live a homosexual existence… if this were the case species would die off… species exist because of the “strong” biological desire to survive and thrive… over 1,000,000 species of insects exist… science does not even have the exact number… of all these creatures, certainly someone can point his finger at some infrequent and anomalous behavior and say, “see, look… those insects are having same sex relations, ergo, so can I… there must be some biological precedent or loop-hole for my desire and eagerness to commit sodomy, and I just found my answer!” WRONG! In the animal kingdom certain mollusks and schyphoids and other animals of lower form, can and do change sexes throughout life, in mollusks this is found in certain bi-valves and some gastropods. The rare phenomenon is called “protandric”, and it constitutes males changing to females for a procreative purpose that allows species survival. This phenomenon, as I say, is found in animals of lower form… certainly we do not find this anomalous behavior in the class mammalia… I have never heard of a Cape Buffalo in the veldt, one day deciding he was going to “bugger” other males exclusively… doesn’t happen… furthermore animals have sex to procreate… humans have sex for pleasure!… got that sport…. pleasure as well as for procreation. God gave man this gift, to be shared with his monogamous partner, that has been sacramentally joined in the union of marriage! This pleasure is confined to men and women, who are joined in wedlock, with each “act” potentially leading to children, so more humans can enter the Church militant, here on earth, to adore the Creator. Hypothetically, even if animals indulge in homosexual behavior for pleasure (which they don’t)… it wouldn’t matter, because God forbids man to indulge in this perversion!… The teachings found in sacred scripture and sacred tradition bear this out conclusively… the Church has always taught that men who lie with other many for reasons of sexual pleasure is wrong!… in fact it’s a mortal sin!… if you disbelieve me, just google the Church’s teaching on this matter… no amount of rationalizing is going to give you the “green-light” to indulge in this revolting act…

        • Your Fellow Catholic says:

          I don’t dispute church teaching. But I would also note that the church has a poor record sustaining moral and theological teachings about things scientific. Galileo. Darwin. Watson. Sagan.

          If you doubt that higher animals, including mammals, form sexual and affectionate bonds between some members of the same sex, please lookup the youtube videos entitled Out in Nature. Part 1 is all anyone needs to observe several examples of this behavior.

          Before I get too technical, recall that the scientific method consists of an iterative process of observation, hypothesis formulation, followed by experimentation. So at first blush, we observe that the vast majority of most species pair with the opposite sex. So we hypothesize that that is normal. Until further observation and experimentation proves that in certain situations, certain members prefer to pair with members of the same sex. So the scientist must formulate a new hypothesis, which takes into account the findings. And that is the state of the science today. There was a recent paper with a quite detailed mathematical model proposing epigenetic changes to the genome that would account for a variety of the observations regarding human same sex attraction.

          And speaking of things scientific, people have a poor ability to imagine the precise levers that contribute to long term evolutionary fitness. One often finds, for example, that if one carefully controls for environmental factors, that the “average” or “wild type” of a species does not really reproduce at higher rates than certain substrains when reared under “average” conditions. The interpretation is that the wild types contain mutations that in the short term harm its ability to reproduce rapidly, and which lie unused under conditions of low environmental stress, but in the long term protect them so that they can still reproduce when they encounter elevated environmental stress of one kind or another. For example, the giraffe might find its long neck a hindrance when there is sufficient food at ground level, but under conditions when shorter animals proliferate and eat up the low-lieing vegetation, then the giraffe suddenly has a selective advantage. Science has not progressed very far at aligning the exact contributions of haplotypes that contribute to fitness under various circumstances. We certainly aren’t there yet with SSA either… but that doesn’t mean that we won’t one day be there.

          But I would take you right back to church teaching. The church teaches unequivocally (and correctly) that a homosexual sexual orientation is neither a choice nor a sin. The Church has the benefit of 20 centuries of observation, undoubtedly knowing within its soul that in some individuals, same sex attraction is a deep part of who the person is, and because of that, the person must be respected with the same dignity that is due heterosexual members of humanity.

          So dear Icthyologist, you find yourself in what I must imagine is the uncomfortable situation of contradicting both science AND your Church!

          • An Icthyologist says:

            Wrong again YFC… you said “my” Church… aren’t you a fellow Catholic?… clearly you have produced nothing substantive that alters my facts, that have clearly been presented… not a single species in the class mammalia indulges in same sex behavior for pleasure or procreation… not one, save “Homo sapien”, and this is due to “original sin”, which only humans are shackled with, as all other animals are not in need of redemption, as none sin, nor have immortal souls. Not even chimps (Pan troglodytes) that masturbate openly in zoos and bestiarys sodomize each other!… You can fall back on Carl Sagan (an astronomer physicist) to support your erroneous belief, that animals practice same sex behavior for pleasure, which is so utterly ridiculous it doesn’t warrant a response… Carl Sagan?… you serious? Furthermore, I never said homosexual orientation was wrong or sinful, I stated that men who practice sodomy with other men is sinful…

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Dear Icthyologist. You are entitled to your own opinions. However, you are not entitled to your own facts. Did you even view the videos? Have you ever read a scientific paper about the issue? I suspect not, given that you dispute what is plainly observable in many parts of nature. And then in other posts you admit there is such a thing. Then you go back to denying it again. Running around in circles, you do, like a dog chasing his tail.

            Further, I didn’t say a single word about Carl Sagan ever saying anything at all about homosexuality. I said he was one example among many who’s scientific work ran counter to theology. If you misunderstood, I’m sorry, but there is no reasonable way for you to interpret my words to say what you think they said. Certainly if I said Sagan had an opinion about homosexual animals, then I would have had to say that Galileo did as well, which we all know would have been an absurd conclusion. So, this just goes to show that you don’t seriously read what is written here, you only dispute it because it is part of a stream of logic that proves how faulty your various conflicting hypotheses are.

          • YFC, you command of science is absurd, especially in that you reduce it to random speculations based on gay apologetics.

          • The Church teaches that homosexuality is the result of sin and is itself a punishment for sin. In other words, YFC, same sex attraction is a gross evil that mankind suffers in general and some men suffer particularly. There is only one way out of this evil, and that is humility and the Cross.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            There are many that say that they don’t dispute what the church teaches but the way they live speaks louder than words, their lifestyles do a great job at disputing what Christ commanded!

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Skai, once AGAIN you insult me without so much as providing a single fact to back your insults up. And you don’t understand Church teaching on homosexuality. The Church does NOT teach that homosexuality is the result of sin. Please stop making things up!

          • Abeca Christian says:

            YFC you are incorrect. Yes homosexuality is the result of sin or sin that was imposed upon another!

          • Mark from PA says:

            Skai, you say that homosexuality the result of sin. Your Fellow Catholic is correct. That is not Church teaching. You also say that it is punishment for sin. So you think God makes people homosexuals as a punishment for sin? How exactly is that supposed to be? You have your own theology here.

  15. CCD, thank you for posting this and thanks to the volunteer who found it. There is so much of value in this article. I love his recognition of the fear of persecution that we have to deal with in speaking out on the issue of marriage protection. I am happy to see a bishop at last speak about the temptations that traditional Catholics face. Even to have a bishop acknowledge traditional Catholics is a rarity; also his recognition of the need for deeper faith among traditional Catholics is almost a miracle, definitely someone who is listening to Jesus and Mary. I think this bishop is very important in the Church. He’s cool; he’s smart; he’s obedient; and he is sincere. Praise and thanks to God.

  16. I really enjoyed this article. I have a much better understanding of who Archbishop Cordileone is. I have prayed to St. Frances that he would help take back San Francisco for Christ. I believe he has heard my prayers. May God bless Archbishop Cordileone and his flock.

    • Tracy, you reminded me that I said a Novena of Chaplets to St. Francis several months ago for the conversion of San Francisco. It seems that God has given us an answer to our prayers.

  17. An Icthyologist says:

    The Church has always condemned homosexual “behavior”… it is gravely disordered and sinful… no amount of rationalization will alter this fact… I have heard of agnostics, even atheists, who find this behavior repugnant and a shock to people’s sense of “decent shame”!

    • Love your fish-centered name, by the way, which is most certainly from the Greek word ΙΧΘΥΣ which, as we all know, was an early Christian acronym for (using the letters for the beginning of the following words):

      JESUS
      CHRIST
      GOD’S
      SON
      SAVIOR

      Very nice handle!

      • An Icthyologist says:

        Glad you like it Mackz… I’ve been doing research on stonefish for a number of years and the protein peptides produced in the venom gland of the tropical indo-pacific species horrida and verrucosa. One is an estuary variety the other is a strict reef dweller, of the family Synanceiidae. The research has been centered on the way the protein molecules are deactivated by heat… an antivenom has been produced. The systemic effects are swift and grave, after envenomation by one of the 13 dorsal spines, and when death occurs, it’s often due to shock produced by overriding pain, best neutralized by heat treatment modalities. Anaphylaxis can occur, when victims have allergies, and the antivenom is administered. Some native aborigines of Queensland call it “Nohu”, which means the “waiting one”… just waiting for some wader to step on it… ouch! Fun stuff… I also enjoy Pterois volitans… another stinger… he’s more aggressive, but not as deadly.

        • Oh, my mistake — I thought your handle was religious, not scientific. Sorry for my mistake!

          And I’m never going in the water again after reading about THOSE fish you describe. :-)

          • It’s all religious, Mackz; the devil often awaits its prey in the manner of the stinger fish.

      • I for Jesus
        X for Christ
        Th for God
        U or Y for and
        S for Savior
        What’s that spell? IXThUS

        • UUPS. U or Y for Son. I stand belately corrected by the imminently brilliant Mackzakamax.

          • … which I recall being spelled in Greek using English letters, Huious or ‘uious, the ” ‘ ” being an aspiration symbol, aka “H”.

          • ΙΧΘΥΣ is the Greek word for fish, and, using these five letters, one comes up with the following…

            Ἰησοῦς — Jesus
            Χριστός — Christ
            Θεου — God’s
            Υἱός — Son
            Σωτήρ — Savior

            So there you have it. Now time for some nice Greek Baklava…

  18. “Legalizing male breast feeding?!?!?”

    Did our archbishop REALLY say that?

    Good grief. We’re gonna have to tell all those guys at the beach to wear shirts while swimming!

    Reminds me of my dad, who always says, “that’s as useless as teats on a bull!”

    • An Icthyologist says:

      Biologically, it’s not even possible for a man to breastfeed… just not possible… we know how milk is released from the female mammary gland…numerous holes… just not possible…

    • Mackz, please read my reply to Eric. I think you will be surprised. Some confused people are already trying it.

      • An Icthyologist says:

        Homosexuals who live chaste lives are sources of great virtue… virtue comes in the struggle. As bad as fornication is between an unmarried couple, the sex act is at least following it’s correct order, between a man and woman, with the possibility of procreation… this sin does not cry to heaven for vengeance… “sodomy” does… the homosexual act of 2 men buggering each other is gravely sinful and has no possibility of procreation… No amount of rationalization, or using any other defense mechanism, will justify the act of male on male sodomy… uh-uh… the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of this perversion… the men even rejected Lot’s virgin daughters… they wanted MEN!

        • Icthyologist and Your Fellow Catholic I agree with Icthyologist’s post above because it seems to be according to Biblical and Church teaching and Nature, and I believe that there must be a special place in heaven for those with homosexual and Lesbian tendencies who practice chastity and teach others to do so. I am sure it is not an easy cross to bear, although God gives us all crosses. It is when those who claim to be chaste, give their approval to others not to be chaste — such as in so-called same-sex marriages — that I believe they fall from grace and endanger their souls and the souls of others and their bodies. Also, Your Fellow Catholic is right that no one should be alone with children and teens unless they are their own children. Just as some heterosexuals have been falsely accused of molestation, I am sure some homosexuals and Lesbians have been falsely accused too. The policy of “No Adult Alone with the Underaged” protects both the child AND the adult — the child from molestation, the adult from false accusations. Some children see way too much on television now or even in some homes to be as innocent as most were in the past, and children do sometimes lie. God bless and keep you all.

          • “television”, Annet T. ??? The biggie is Youtube. Parents can put blockers on their home computers … but kids run around today with notebook computers and hand held computers with full internet capabilities. It’s youtube that provides them access to whatever some puts on it.

      • Sorry, Anne, but I had typed my post before yours appeared, so your words were a wake up call for me.

        What a zany world we live in… :-(

  19. An Icthyologist says:

    One more thing… the “Scopes trial” had nothing to do with the sin of “homosexual behavior”… it dealt with the teaching of evolution in the public school system in Tennessee… even the Church now accepts that the world and the cosmos were probably not formed in literally six days… that the earth and the universe formed slowly, over eons of time. The geologic record, shows without equivocation, that the earth is very ancient… and the organisms that inhabit it have been in existence for many many years. Many creatures, animals and plants alike, have burgeoned, and some have died off, obviously this is called extinction, but their progeny lived on, over a time span so ancient, it is almost unimaginable. How many years exactly, who knows… I think modern man, and the use of “cuneiform writing”, gives us some idea of the origin of modern man, who could use written language to convey ideas and thoughts, to love and to serve as well… Modern, or contemporary man, only dates back 5000 plus years, with the advent of cuneiform writing. These were the Sumerians. Cro-magnon, and neanderthal existed… we have a geologic record of their existence and passing as well as Cro-Magnon’s cave paintings in Europe, which give us some insight into his ability and desire to express himself and the world about him.

    • The reason homeschooling is so popular in TN is that they teach evolution in the schools, now. Most people in TN still believe in the 6 days of creation. In KY they have a museum dedicated to teaching the Creation of the world and man as prtrayed in the Bible. Less than 15% of Americans believe in evolution as it is taught in the schools (Godless). Almost half of Americans believe that God created the world as told in Scripture. The rest believe in a combination such as a God-directed evolution. I’ve never heard the idea that modern man began with the Sumerians. That would be about the time of Abraham. It may be an archeological distinction but not biological.

    • “Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals”: the theories on this stuff is revised approximately every five years.

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      I’m not sure what any of this has to do with anything anyone is discussing here.

      Unless you are trying to say that at some point, animals ceased have animal offspring and suddenly one day they gave birth to a human child who was infused suddenly with a soul and with the ability to discern right from wrong, whereas his (or her) parents were animals with no soul and no ability to discern right from wrong. If the child’s uncle were in a same sex relationship it would be ok because they were not yet human, but if his son entered into one, he ought to have known better, as it was suddenly disordered, and therefore was not eligible for heaven. Is that what you are trying to say icthyosis?

      • Human nature, YFC, and the “nature” of God. You make a lot of claims based on a rather vacant plenum of knowledge. We’re providing you and any reader interested with the various academic paths to getting a grip on reality. There is nothing new or revolutionary about gay movements in society or politics, which may surprise you. It’s hot today because of a combination of factors, not least of which is the demonic dimension which is always attacking the Church. Look what it has done in recent decades by seducing enough clergy and laity so as to write off the defilement of boys by priests as a minor infraction, and to legitimize sodomy. These are insane things on the ultimate score card, and need to be stopped asap.

        • Your Fellow Catholic says:

          Dear, dear Skai:

          I’ve provided readers of this page with easily accessible visual confirmation of the fact that some animals display same sex attractions. No one, including you, dear Skai, have attempted to say that there is anything fallible in those videos.

          And no one on this forum has, so far, disputed the theory of evolution.

          And no one, especially given the history of Galileo and the others I cited, would dare to claim that the Church demands obedience of will and mind over science, but instead stays to faith and morals, as it should.

          And then I go on to combine the presence of SSA in animals with the fact that through evolution, we humans have inherited many traits, possibly including SSA. So I’m just raising the possibility that the link from ape to human includes the possibility of innate homosexuality passed down at least from the time of our primordial ancestors. I don’t know if it was, I just raise that as a possibility.

          On the other hand, you have provided neither facts nor logic to dispute this possibility, yet you continue to attack me as a person. Of course you have no other choice than to continue to hurl these ad hominems, because you have neither facts to cite nor logic to provide.

          Further, you invoke the clergy sex abuse scandal as “evidence” that homosexuality is demonic. Well, interestingly, the thing is that the clergy sex abuse scandal involved both boys and girls. And insofar as boys are more commonly exposed to priests given the misogyny in some of the history of the Church, I’d say that if there is a demonic aspect to all this, it is not the taint of homosexuality, but, rather, the CLERGY aspect. It was CLERGY who proved demonic, with boys AND with girls. And this child sex abuse is not so rampant in the broader homosexual community at large. I dare you to try to find it. It lies almsot exclusively with the ordained Roman Catholic clergy. Sad, I know. I have no answer, and no response. I’ve tried to avoid pointing this out to everyone on CCD, because we are ALL pained by the scandal, truly. But the fact that you keep bringing up the clergy-on-boy aspect to that scandal has forced me to respond finally to say that our clergy abused our sisters and our daughters as well.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            By the way, Dear Skai, It is not me, or other fellow catholics, or other fellow gays, who “write off” the defilement of boys. Sorry, no, that belongs to the Bishops. Like Bishop Mahoney of LA. He and others like him wrote off the defilement of our brothers and sisters. Take your aim at him.

          • An Icthyologist says:

            Sadly YFC, those pederast priests who have molested these children and “young men”… many in their mid teens… have openly admitted that they “ARE” homosexual in orientation… that’s one of the reasons that molestation has taken place with males in over 95% of the cases of underage molestation… most of these priests are not even pedophiles, they are homosexual pederasts… though some are full blown pedos…

          • Mark from PA says:

            Yes, YFC, many girls and women were abused and exploited by errant clergy. I think a lot of people want to forget about that and pretend it didn’t happen. It is as if those victims are not important to them. The worst cases were when the victims became pregnant as a result and sometimes were forced to get rid of their children. This is tragic too.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            19% of the sex abuse victims were female, according the the John Jay study.

            The (future) sexual orientation of the victims has nothing whatsoever to do with the scandalous actions by the priests. These priests had an obligation to act legally and morally, but they couldn’t keep their trap shut.

        • Abeca Christian says:

          I agree Skai is very dear dear to us all! God bless SKAI!

          • Mark from PA says:

            Icthyologist, in the John Jay Study, 53% of the victims were teens, 13-17 years of age, 47% of the victims were 12 and younger. 80% of the teens were male but victims under the age of 10 were evenly split between boys and girls. In my opinion, anyone that molests children of 12 and younger is a pedophile. The worst of these guys molested both boys and girls.

  20. An Icthyologist says:

    Concerning Saint Paul’s letter to the Phillipians, chapter 3: using the Jerusalem bible translation: Verse 17… “My brothers, be united in following my rule of life. Take as your models everybody who is already doing this and study them as you used to study us. I have told you often, and I repeat it today, with tears, there are many who are behaving as enemies of the cross of Christ. They are destined to be lost. They make foods into their god and they are proudest of something they ought to think shameful; the things they think important are earthly things. For us, our homeland is in heaven, and from heaven comes the savior we are waiting for, the Lord Jesus Christ and he will configure these wretched bodies of ours, into copies of His glorious body.”

    He will do that which he can subdue the whole universe. Circumcision and following dietary restrictions were examples of those who were following the mosaic law and felt that salvation would come via these acts… they are proudest of something they ought to think shameful, is not referring to circumcision as a shameful act, but following the “ways of the world”… the foods are referring to a worldly, fleshly existence, experiences not of the spirit. “Their glory is their shame”…. following the “ways of the world”…

    • An Icthyologist says:

      errata… that was Saint Paul’s letter to the Philippians, Chapter 3, verse 17 through 21… my bad.

  21. An Icthyologist says:

    When you view a “gay” pride parade in West Hollywood… watching these men kissing, cavorting and wearing make-up, it is clearly shameful. Their “glory is their shame” …this sensual, decadent example of the way of the world is what Saint Paul was referring to. Minimizing this powerful “adjudication” to merely saying it refers to men who are circumcised is not what Paul was getting at… uh-uh… he was talking about those people who live a “worldly existence”, following their “bellies” and all the fleshly pleasures, that are at “enmity” with the spiritual… circumcision is not at enmity with the word of God, (many Christians are circumcised). Those who revel in the “pleasures of the world” are at variance with the word of God and understanding its counter-cultural message…

  22. An Icthyologist says:

    One more point of clarification for YFC… the primates that have displayed behavior that he seems to think is sexual in orientation is not… when male chimps rub each others rumps and grind their pelvis into each other, it is NOT sexual!… this is a misnomer to the MAX!… this is behavior that is rooted in “troop” bonding… these males and female primates have actual SEX only with the opposite sex… I would refer you to the works of Paul Le Gros, an anthropologist and anatomist, and Desmond Morris, a renowned British zoologist and primatologist… both of these erudite scientists are well worth reading, especially concerning the behavior of the great apes and primates in general. Russell Mittermeir as well, in fact, start with him, then move on to Desmond… hopefully, you will find these learned men a font of zoological information concerning the Order Primates…

    • Humans tend to relegate these sorts of animal behaviors to the use of language. At this point, it may interest some readers to look into the phenomenon of what is called “totem”. A totem is a hierarchy of idols.

  23. An Icthyologist says:

    One more point of clarification… and you may consider this my last word on the matter… when discussing homosexuality by definition, it means a “romantic” and desirous sexual feeling or urge toward someone of the same sex… only man is capable of displaying and indulging in “romance”… animals do not display or respond to “romance”… they are wired to procreate due to instinctual urges formed over eons of time… this urge is hard-wired into every creature’s DNA… romance is not!… and romance and “sexual attraction”, for the sake of “pleasure” solely, is the domain of man… for reasons other then “procreation”. This particular “social mechanism” is only found in our species Homo sapien… not in sand flies… nor gibbons or even (my favorite), the stonefish…

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      So you have completely run circles around yourself icthyosis. First you say that animals never want to have sex with other animals of the same sex. Then you say that because animals sometimes want to have sex with the same sex but they are not “capable” of romance. So which is it? And how do you deal with animals that have liftime mates? Who mourn their loss? Who care for them when they are sick? I bet some of them would even pay for dinner for their mates when they go on dates ;)

      • Anonymous says:

        I stopped reading icky’s posts because the word he uses for you-know-what is so offensive. But YFC, you were claimed for Christ in Baptism. It is immaterial what animals or even other humans do.

        • An icthyologist says:

          What’s even more offensive “then-the-word” anonymously, is the shamefully ignominious act itself… What… “sodomy” is a word that shocks your Catholic sensibilities?… I’m glad, it should… what’s even more shocking and shameful are the men who indulge in this perversion, and implore society to endorse and value this immoral act…

        • “You know what” is what is offensive, Anon”, and the reason you gave is false. It is not the word used to denote it but that which is denoted, which gays seek to silence so as not to be highlighted to the rest of humanity … because they don’t want their predations brought into the open.

        • Anon, how do you conduct a discussion on sodomites without referring to their perverse attitudes and activities? That hiding your head in the sand is what got so many boys whacked by priests, school teachers, gay uncles, etc. In order to rid a problem, you cannot ignore it, but have to describe it. The point is to love the sinner enough that you don’t worry about the words offending you.

          • Skai, no one on CCD has ever called sodomy what he called it. I have heard that term maybe twice in my life and it was from people who used pornography. Some say it is a British term and it may well be. No one else here has ever used it or any of the more vulgar or obscence words for it and we don’t need to start.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Right. In this case Skai is right. Focus on priests using the authority of Holy Mother Church upon innocent kids, and then threatening their eternal souls if they tell the authorities about the obnoxious activities they did with our daughters and our sons.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Skai right on, you tell it like it is….praise God you corrected Anon!

  24. An icthyologist says:

    Humans are attracted to each other based on appearance… sound, a cleverly placed dimple and the tone of a voice or the tinkle of resonant laughter… animals for the most part… mammals in particular, go into heat and mate with whoever is handy… man’s “ritual”, calling it romance, is a far more sophisticated ritual, that is rooted in the mores of our society and culture, learned and cultivated and influenced by the social construct of the media… symmetry also plays a significant part… but men are more stimulated than women by what they see… women are as well, though not to the same degree… they become stimulated by what they hear… something to reflect on… a wise priest once told me that young couples should never date, this implies that “romance” has taken place, with a physical dimension that is involved… the prudent, chaste Catholic couple should be “courting”… not dating… how wonderful it would be to kiss your bride on the lips… and it would be on the first day of wedlock…

  25. An icthyologist says:

    Your analogy YFC makes perfect sense now… all ambiguity has been cleared up… it stands to reason that homosexual behavior should be endorsed by society and the Church… after all occasionally monkeys bugger each other, stands to reason man should have the privileges that the chimpanzee has… thank you YFC, I feel spiritually enlightened by your presentation and am personally enriched by your astute observations concerning primate sexuality.

  26. An icthyologist says:

    The animals that YFC is referring to can indulge in any and all HOMOSEXUAL behavior they see fit… “Man” is forbidden to indulge in this perversion… the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because the inhabitants of these cities were steeped in this “corruption”… nuff said.

  27. Mark from PA says:

    Thanks for your sensible posts, Your Fellow Catholic.

    • Thank you Icthyologist for your enlightening posts. I am sure you know more about biology than many others who come on here.

  28. An icthyologist says:

    I heard a couple of male penguins bonded recently at the Bronx Zoo… they were “blue penguins” from Australia… Eudyptula minor… another common name is the fairy blue penguin… “fairy”, due to it being the most diminutive of the family Spheniscidae…

  29. As Cardinal George has said, icthyologist, if one outlaws marriage as being only between a man and a woman, one might as well outlaw gravity.

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      no one is proposing outlawing marriage, Anne.

      • Cdl George was using a metaphor to convey the idea that legalizing “gay marriage” is tantamount to mocking real marriage. Do you gays imagine that has somehow evolved beyond the nature of the people whom Jesus chose to start His church?

  30. An icthyologist says:

    Thanks Anne T… this prelate is another living example of “the smoke of satan entering the church”…

    • Actually, icthyologist, I did not read all your posts as anonymous did not either. Some were a little bit too much for me, but I read enough to know that you understand what real marriage is all about and that homosexual acts are inhuman and wrong. To be honest I also posted to refute Mark from PA. Again, while he acts all naive or innocent, he then turns around and praises Your Fellow Catholic’s approval of so-called marriages between people of the same sex. Kind of reminds me of Golum in the Lord of the Rings, who was polite, calling those in power or who could help him Master and flattering them until his real self showed up. As far as Cardinal George, I do not know that much about him, but that one thing he said was quite correct.

      • Perhaps I should not have said “his real self” but “his conflicted self”.

        • Your Fellow Catholic says:

          Perhaps you should speak for yourself, Anne?

          • AHhh Spoken like a true “tolerant” liberal……

          • No, PA, you’re not a drug addict as far as I know. But you’re an addict. The addictive behavior is identical, regardless of the object of the addiction.

          • Rather than shut down the development of knowledge, YFC, why don’t you instead take part in the discussion to discover what you can?

          • I’m putting you on ignore my so-called fellow Catholic. I don’t want to read anymore of your really twisted, dark reasoning. It’s like going into a dark room full of spider webs and mice. I’m not the least interested anymore in ANYTHING you have to contribute as you’re not interested in learning and sharing, but in dominating and condemning.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Skai, you don’t know me personally, you have never met me. You say I am an addict but that is just a put-down. It is rude and insulting. You talk about a meth addict, but you have no idea if I have ever tried meth or what I even know about it. It is guilt by association. It is your reasoning that is faulty here.

          • Anonymous says:

            Dana,

            Smart move. The T shirt doesn’t help matters either.

      • “acts all naiive or innocent”: I’m working with a meth addict, whose behavior is like this also. He cannot admit that he is addicted, nor can PA admit that he is addicted to something that shuts down his reasoning faculty. The pattern is the same in both cases. The facts presented to the methamphetamine addict and the gay addict are shed like a duck sheds water.

        • Mark from PA says:

          Oh Skai, so now I am a drug addict too. Thanks for letting me know.

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Skai maybe the right word would be activist… but you do make a good point — addiction can be another word but it can present a different understanding. I would think that activist fits a little bit more. But who am I to say. God bless you

        • Mark from PA says:

          Skai, I have written her before that as a young person I was naive and innocent. I had a very idealized view of the Church. I thought that most priests and bishops lived holy lives. I don’t think I am so naive now. After reading about what went on in Boston, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Wisconsin, Ireland, Australia, and other places; I am not so naive. However I am confused and troubled but what has gone on in the Church. It is still difficult for me to understand, to grasp. I will never understand why bishops looked the other way while children were abused. So many of them just didn’t care about the kids. Abeca Christian, I realize that sometimes I sound like an activist here but there are things about the Catholic Church that I really don’t understand.

  31. An icthyologist says:

    Archbishop Cordileone… keep up the outstanding work… all of your spiritual endeavors and efforts are appreciated beyond words… my wife and I will hold you up in our prayers daily… as well as Archbishop Gomez… keep the faith… and God Bless you…

  32. Actually Golum was torn between his lust to have the Ring of Power and his desire to rid himself of it as Mark from PA is torn between his marriage with a woman though he says he has same-sex attraction and his approval of “marriage” between two men or two women. What a conflict must be going on in his soul.

  33. An Icthyologist says:

    I feel compelled to share just a little more data concerning this vitally important issue. I would refer “YFC” to read the erudite works of Luis Sergio Solimeo… his book, “The Animal Homosexuality Myth: Why we must resist same sex marriage and the Homosexual Movement”. Another learned biologist and bioethicist, by the name of Dr. Antonio Pardo, from the University of Navarre, in Navarre Spain, is someone well worth reading… he denies unequivocally that animals are homosexual in orientation.

    Animals that practice isolated acts of what appears as homosexual behavior is observed in “troop bonding” in apes, (as I’ve already stated) and are manifested by “sensorium stressors”, that are biological in nature, not psychological, nor grounded in any type of “learned behavior”, that is shaped by “operant conditioning”…uh-uh… animals are ruled by “instinct”… formed over eons of time… With animals, sex is about two things… mating and reproduction. This motivation, in most mammals happens in various predetermined cycles, it’s called going into heat!… smell is the decisive and determining factor when and where that animal will have sex, for the sake of reproducing its species and spreading its genetic material into the wild… If I were to listen to those who champion that supposed homosexual behavior in animals is based on pleasure and should be endorsed by man, then man could in turn cannibalize his young and practice filicide… why not?, animals do it… birds and lions have been observed killing and eating their young at various times… it’s not the norm, but it happens… By turning to anomalous animal behavior, which is viewed scientifically, and attempting to read human motivation and desire into these acts is impossible… why? …because animals mate and reproduce and display behavior, that if we performed some of these acts we could be arrested or worse! When cats go into heat pheromones are released, and this attracts male cats… because of the “SMELL”… it’s not visual (based on the study of her legs, curvy shape, or big blue eyes)… it’s purely an instinctual drive… just like when cats occasionally eat their young… when a male lion consumes the cubs of a lioness, which may compete with his own genetic material, he does this solely to promote his own DNA into the pride’s gene pool… this is instinctual, it’s not a cerebral choice, and most certainly is not motivated by any human, anthropomorphic trait. When human beings want to have “sex”… it is one of preference, a man may choose the most attractive desirable woman in the room, to be his paramour that night… but this has nothing to do with being in “heat”… humans have sex with regularity, it is not determined by a “mating cycle”… it is not even about reproduction… it’s about “human desire”… you can cal it passion, “romance”… take your pick… But we are not animals… God has instructed us to use our sexual gift with a monogamous partner… for the purpose of procreation, and yes, there is pleasure… fleshly, human desire and pleasure… something animals don’t present in their biological repertoire, when playing the mating game. And as I’ve already articulated on this blog… even if animals were having homosexual relation’s solely for pleasure, (which they are not)… MAN would still be forbidden to pursue this activity, because God has forbidden it! Man is not just an animal, he has an immortal soul, no other creature on this planet has an immortal soul save man…

    • Animal sex behavior is not that complicated. Male dogs hump other male dogs or human legs as an act of dominance. Dogs feel pleasure when engaged in sex. The Rainbow bridge exists: God will restore the earth according to Scripture. Man has long made idols of animals, which should be obvious to anyone who observes both man and animals, and you can see man in various times and places imitating various animals. One of the archetypes described in Revelation is “The Beast”. The gay agenda promotes idol worship, especially of animals and demons … this should be obvious to the objective observer. Gays usually cannot perceive well, and perhaps some authors, if read thoughtfully, reflectively and with hope, may serve to kick start the dying soul of some gay who reads it or empower some reader to succeed in jogging the hear of some dying sodomitic soul … the whole point is to redeem life. YFC might consider the “preternatural state of man”.

      • An icthyologist says:

        BINGO!… Skai… beautifully stated

        • Both Skai and ich. were very interesting responses. Thanks! My goodness, what we learn here. haha Unfortunately, no matter how erudite you are, how emperically you prove or what logic, common sense and pure reasoning are used, it won’t make a ha’porth difference to those who are incapable of understanding or appreciating the skills you have honed and expressed. But it certainly shows that unless we are opened to the leading of the Holy Spirit, we’re unable to receive those graces. Look how universities have failed to incorporate the findings of DNA research because they negate the very possibility of so-called evolution as taught now. In his book Signature of the Cell, Stephen Meyer said that the possibility that life ‘just happened’ by chance (as claimed by Carl Sagan etc…. who always started his hokey show with that phrase “It just so happened…”) the odds were something like a trillion to the 7th power or in other words, impossible. (read the book) DNA shows the conclusive evidence of a designer. But try to convince the vast majority of ‘scientists’ these days who do not want to be open to truth. I know absolutely nothing about science, but I like to read about scientific discoveries etc. so please don’t think I’m trying to claim to any knowledge or understanding of which I’m incapable of grasping. But I do get, as I see evidence every day, every minute, that God’s incredible hand is everywhere and sometimes it makes me laugh because it’s so amazing and when I see pictures of Him in a manger, I can’t help it, I have to laugh. Oh, my. Here is the Alpha and Omega, creator of heaven and earth in as vulnerable position as can be imagined… but I digress.;o)

          • Dana, science is very easy. Science: “Knowledge is power”.

          • Skai, I can paint in oils and sculpt… I find it so easy yet always a challenge. You should be able to do so as well, without a qualm, given your logic! I can grasp the essentials of science, but it’s not in me to be able to understand formulae and scientific jargon and thingummies. I always got A’s for drawing the cell, etc. in Biology, but when it got into the meaty stuff I lost interest completely. Our brains are not all made in the same way, and viva la difference, I say!

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      It is impossible to prove a negative, especially in biology. Because “erudite” learners have never observed some ‘thing’, or choose different interpretations of easily documented facts, does not mean that the ‘thing’ doesn’t or can’t exist. The first observations of same sex courtship, sex, and pair bonds was documented over a century ago, but “erudite” scholars, terrified at the implications, suppressed and edited the findings, just as the scholars you cite do as well.

      Fortunately, in our generation, we have video camera documentation, open minded scientists, and YouTube to allow ‘things’ like animal same-sex attractions to be shown so that individuals can judge for themselves the truth, and not rely upon “erudite” scholars and clearly biased secondary sources such as icthyologist, to decide for them. And at a very rapid pace, that is what the American public and my fellow catholics in the pew, are doing.

      • An icthyologist says:

        Wrong again YFC… only liberal, modernist, parishioners who are homosexual in orientation, who want the Church and society to endorse this sinful activity, subscribe to the mumbo-jumbo you adhere to.

        • Your Fellow Catholic says:

          Watch the videos and see for yourselves. No mumbo-jumbo. No need to be homosexual in orientation, no need to invoke sin or grace. Just watch and decide for yourselves. No need to take my word for it, or Icthyosis’ word, or the word of any elitist “erudite scholar”. Just watch. Out in Nature on YouTube.

          • YFC not surprising you think man and animals are the same… most sodomites behave like animals…..

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Canisius, it is not an insult when I call you an animal. You are an animal of the species Homo sapiens. So am I. Some Homo sapiens treat each other with kindness and respect. Others, not so much.

          • Your type of illogic would make it the same thing for a man to kiss his mother as to kiss a hooker, YFC.

        • Icthyologist, I do have a number of problems with some of the things you stated here. One is your proclamation that only humans engage in sexual relations for pleasure only, while animals only engage in sexual behaviors for mating purposes. First of all, strip mankind of scientific knowledge, and man behaves very similarly to animals with respect to mating, in that sexual behaviors almost always will be tied up with procreation.

          You seem to think only man behaves “purely for pleasure” while animals behave on “instinct” and for evolutionary benefit. If that were true, then you’d never see misdirected behavior in ethology. Animals DO pursue behaviors motivated on pure pleasure, and many times those behaviors DO NOT improve their inclusive fitness. In fact, the biggest differences in human vs. animal behaviors with respect to pleasure is that human beings have much more ability to isolate pleasure (due to superior knowledge) from the underlying behaviors with fitness impacts. Rats, for example, will starve themselves to death by choosing cocaine over freely available food.

          As for male dogs displaying “humping” behavior as a pure display of dominance, I think that idea is silly. Pleasure is also part of the equation, or else ejaculation would not be part of the picture. I think most dog owners who have not stopped this behavior by their pet know better.

          You also seem to possess a contemptuous attitude toward the animal nature of human beings. This is an attitude that many clergy also seem to possess. Clergy frequently display this mode of thought in discussions about human sexuality. I have never understood this viewpoint. It seems to me, that we possess an animal nature due to the Will of God. If we are to believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent Creator, then considering our own animal nature with contempt is to deny His wisdom. Obviously, we must use our intellect to understand the consequences of our behavior, and thus make moral choices.

          Yet, derision and contempt for our animal nature is nothing more than a hubris-filled denial of our essential makeup. We will not be beings of pure spiritual essence while we reside in the world, unlike God and the Angels, and we should not purport to be so. You also seem unaware of the numerous subtle affects that natural selection has over human behavior—as studying sociobiology will show.

          Indeed, the attitude seems doubly ironic to me, especially when you consider that the entirety of catholic sexual theology can be seen as PRESERVING the natural fusion of pleasure, relationship building, and procreation of sexual acts, rather than seeking only the pleasure. As you have pointed out, it is humans who “mate for pleasure” and not animals.

          • Jon J… nothing you state, in any way, can scientifically refute the data that I have presented… furthermore, you contradict yourself when explaining to everyone that we are more then mere animals sexually, and behaviorally… EXACTLY MY POINT!… go back and read my scientific interpretation of man’s desire for sex… has nothing to do with being in “heat”… man does it purely for pleasure… the pleasure has to be channeled into a solely monogamous relationship though, with the possibility of procreation as the end result… this is what the Church demands of her subjects, who are both animal and more, much more… after all, only man has an immortal soul… whether or not creatures indulge in sex for pleasure or procreation is irrelevant… they are not denied either… man is… for good reason, God demands that man use his procreative powers only while in a monogamous relationship, with a married spouse… if man chose to abuse his procreative powers, he could people a small village in a very short period of time simply by spreading his genetic material into any available female, who was ovulating/or not pregnant. Your argument is without any merit… and has nothing to do with my original point.

  34. I need to clarify something that I wrote here, I was not comparing Mark from PA’s appearance with Gollum, nor do I think he is that vicious. He does not have to be be vicious like Gollum as most of the time he gets or uses others to defend him, even when he is wrong. Nevetheless, his personality is as conflicted as Gollum’s because he wants the name of Catholic and to take the Sacraments without believing in and obeying some of the important Catholic teachings. It would be one thing if he did not know any better but he does. Like Gollum he claims to be pro life yet votes for the most pro abortion president ever — probably because he was hoping he would push “same-sex” marriage, and the president is doing so. He will not enter a “same-sex” sexually relationship, tells others at times they should be chaste if they have what he calls a “gay” orientation, yet he will turn around and give the “green light” to others to do so by giving his approval to “same-sex” marriages, even though he knows Church teaching, the catechism and the Magesterium of the Church is against it. He then usually “trashes” bishops, although most times politely, who preach what the Church teaches on the subject of “same-sex” marriage or he encourages those who do trash them. He also distorts at times the words in the catechism — any UNJUST discrimination against homosexuals is to be avoided — to mean any discrimination or criticism is wrong. Discrimination is not always wrong. We all discriminate. Countries discriminate when they make laws that only citizens can vote in their elections. We discriminate when we say fathers cannot marry their daughters. Those are good forms of discrimination. It is only UNJUST discrimination that is wrong, and making marriage only between a one man and one woman is not UNJUST discrimination. Quite frankly, in that sense there are a lot Gollums who come on here. Now I am getting off of Mark’s merry-go-round.

    • Mark from PA says:

      Anne, I have a degree in history but I have never heard of Gollum. So I don’t know what he looks like. It is kind of as if I compared you to Lucy Hayes.

      • Mark from PA says:

        Anne, if it will make you feel any better, I looked up Gollum. They had several pictures of him from movies. I guess you wouldn’t compare my appearance to his as you don’t know what I look like. In regard to unjust discrimination, who gets to decide what is unjust, the person doing the discriminating or the person being discriminated against? Fifty years ago Governor Wallace of Alabama declared, “Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.” Back then many people justified segregated schools, it was justified discrimination. The Catholic Church quickly desegregated their schools in the South, following the law. One wonders what many of those old time segregationists would think now that we have an African American in the White House. Some people consider it progress, others long for the “good old days” when people knew their place.

        • Mark I apologize for comparing you to Gollum. That was a bad choice of characters. I just do not understand your thinking at all, so I put your name on a piece of paper and put you in my God box and turned you over to the Lord.

          I just do not see your comparison between President Obama being black and his policies. Moses in the Old Testament, and God according to the Bible, was for marriage between those of different races if they had the same religions and values, but they both were against the practice of sodomy. Moses’ own wife was a Hamite. That is the stand of the Magesterium of the Church also.

          There is no comparison as I see it between what happened in Selma, Alabama, and this President’s outrageous policies. He claims to be Christian yet gives planes and military equipment that is being used against the Copts, who are African Christians, in Egypt.

          I know that some probably refused to vote for him merely because he was part African American, but just as many voted for him just because he was part African American. Both are wrong as I see it. One woman told me one of the reasons she voted for him was because he was of mixed race, but she also agreed with his stand on abortion for the most part, so at least she was consistent. I find your and some others’s reasoning inconsistent unless you want him to legalize “marriages’ between people of the same-sex and/or unbridled abortion. We are all inconsistent at times, but you seem very, very conflicted.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Anne, I disagree strongly with President Obama’s position on abortion. Abortion damages women and destroys children. How wonderful if President Obama would have a change of heart on abortion. It would be good if he could meet and talk to Norma McCorvey. She now realizes how she was used and knows how precious our children are. President Obama is a father so he should know also. Roe vs. Wade was a tragic mistake. I suppose you are correct in saying that we are all inconsistent at times.

        • Catherine says:

          Comparing sodomy to segregation is another example of diabolical disorientation. When someone tries to use this deceitful tactic on a faithful Catholic website then this is an individual who is diagnosed as CatholicChurchteachinhgophobic.

          Possible remedy for those interested in stopping their obsessive addictions:

          Reading the book THE FOUR LAST THINGS —- DEATH, JUDGMENT, HELL and HEAVEN
          FATHER MARTIN VON COCHEM, O.S.F.C.

  35. And Mark PA, the Catholic Church is never going to change its position on marriage between one man and one woman, and you might as well get used to it. It will NEVER change it. It cannot. As it does not have the authority to ordain women, it does not have the authority to change God’s Commandments on marriage.

    • Christ said in the New Testament that Moses allowed polygamy because of the hardness of the people’s heart, but from the beginning marriage was to be between one man and one woman. He also said that what God has joined together in marriage, no man is to put asunder. It is in the 19th chapter of St. Matthew that the Lord Jesus says; “Who answering, said, to them; Have ye not read that he who made man from the beginning made them male and female? and he said: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife: and they two shall be in one flesh.” (meaning for the most part children — one flesh — born of the marriage.) “Therefore, now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” I have used an older Catholic text, but it means the same thing in the newer Catholic texts. So Mark it will NEVER happen, except for those who go off into a heretical sect or apostasy.

  36. An Icthyologist says:

    Approximately 45-50 years ago a renowned Jesuit priest from Argentina was also an ichthyologist. I won’t mention his name, but he was the southern hemisphere’s leading authority of freshwater stingray (Potamotrygon motoro)… much of his research was centered around Uruguay, Argentina and southern Brazil, in the various freshwater tributaries of the Amazon… in fact, if memory serves me, a subspecies, possibly from Uruguay, was named after him, due to his research and involvement with stingrays and stingray envenomation. I conversed with a renowned biotoxicolgist and marine biologist in Southern California, who was a colleague and friend of mine for over a decade. He was fortunate enough to have known this priest, and aided him when he produced his monograph on poisonous and venomous marine creatures.

    • Icthyologist, there have been and are many excellent and great Catholic priest scientists, some in the field of the ethical types of stem cell research, such as adult skin cells and cord blood.

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        Anne, I’d like to read their research? Which priests are doing stem cell research?

        • Mchicha Wacheza says:

          you really are just looking to discredit official Church doctrine. I am on to you. You are not interested in really being Catholic.

        • YFC, if you are really, really interested, you can listen to Immaculate Heart Radio, 1260 AM on the dial, or watch EWTN television online or on your TV. A Catholic priest scientist comes on there quite often who is well versed in all kinds of stem cell research and knows the good from the bad. He comes from a family of scientists, his father being an astrophysicist and his mother any type of scientist. The situation with Galileo from a Catholic perspective is often discussed too. The pope at that time was extremely well educated and thought Galileo was right, but he asked him not to present as fact what he had not yet proven — thus the conflict. Galileo was never tortured.

    • Fishman, how would you compare/contrast fish venom with snake venom, particularly those of the US, mostparticularly the rattlers from the midwest to the west coast? or the black widow and brown recluse?

  37. An Icthyologist says:

    One of the great lights of marine biology was Fr. George Ruggieri, SJ. He was a graduate of Saint John’s U., and may have received his doctorate at St. Louis University in Missouri or possibly Cornell in Zoology, can’t remember. Be that as it may, he was former curator of fishes at the American Museum of Natural History and was curator in charge of fishes at the Coney Island Aquarium, Brooklyn, New York… about 40 years ago. Sadly, it is difficult to find much of his original research on the internet… hopefully, it was saved on micro-fiche. He was a colleague and contemporary of Dr. Bruce Halstead, who was the nation’s… if not world’s leading authority on “dangerous marine organisms” …this included all the cnidaria, schyphoids, echinoderms, porifera and the mollusca, especially “cone-snails” of the genus conus. Dr. Halstead’s forte was “poisonous and venomous” fish… particularly the trigger-fish and puffers, as well as the scorpionfishes. Bruce was a good friend of mine and he was also an M.D., who wrote the definitive monograph, “Poisonous and Venomous Marine Animals of the World” in three volumes. Though not a Catholic, he was a deeply spiritual man, who was also on staff at Loma Linda University Hospital. He devoted his life to science and research that would enhance man’s quality of life here on earth, and he left a tremendous legacy, that has enriched a number of scientific disciplines, ranging from marine zoology to internal medicine and botanical pharmacognosy. I feel very honored to have known him, and been a friend of this outstanding marine biologist and medical zootoxicologist. Jokingly, he used to tell me he was a “bibliophile” more than anything else. He loved “books”… and had the most comprehensive library on “venomous marine organisms” in the nation, if not the world. I was thrilled when he would let me thumb through his massive library of wonderful first editions, and then let this young scientist pick his brilliant mind for an hour or more. Boy, those were some great memories, great times…

  38. This was a great article with many different subjects and I am sorry to see the comments get hijacked. Anybody want to discuss the other subjects?

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COMMENTS POLICY: Comments are limited to 250 words, and should not contain offensive or libelous language. Please strive to be civil. All comments are subject to approval by our moderator and to editing as the moderator deems appropriate. Inclusion of your email address is optional.