Bishop Vann installed as bishop of Orange

Aztec dancers and Vietnamese incense bearers at UC Irvine

Bishop Vann

The following comes from a December 11 story on the Catholic News Agency website.

In his first homily as head of the Orange diocese, Bishop Kevin Vann urged Catholics to help build up the Body of Christ and to shape the culture, not be shaped by it.

“We are gathered here in this God-given moment … as the Body of Christ, as the family of God, in our common mission to bring once again the good news of Jesus Christ in the world,” he said Dec. 10.

“By the hand of God, I believe, we have been brought together, as the Scripture says, as the stream that gladdens the city of God.”

Bishop Vann was installed as head of the Diocese of Orange in a Mass at the Bren Events Center on the campus of the University of California – Irvine. He previously led the Diocese of Fort Worth, Texas.

About 250 priests, 50 bishops and thousands of Catholic laity attended the Mass. Public officials and religious leaders like Pastor Rick Warren of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif. also greeted the fourth Bishop of Orange.

The entrance procession included Aztec dancers, Vietnamese incense bearers and a Knights of Columbus honor guard. The Mass readings were in English, Spanish and Vietnamese, while the Lord’s Prayer was said in the various languages used in the diocese.

Archbishop José H. Gomez of Los Angeles opened the Mass with the sign of the cross. Cardinal Roger Mahony, the emeritus Archbishop of Los Angeles, presided over the Mass as the senior prelate.

Bishop Vann, 61, gave his homily in both English and Spanish. He said Catholics can be united despite their different backgrounds….

The bishop recalled his experience of the powerful Mississippi River, which he crossed during trips from his hometown of Springfield, Ill. to St. Louis.

“Certainly, like the currents of the Mississippi, the winds and currents of our culture and society can frighten us and threaten to push our lives in different directions and weaken our unity and mission. But in the end, we know, that can never happen.”

Bishop Vann reminded the faithful that their lives are “directly shaped truly by the hand of God.”

“Like the spire of the old cathedral in St. Louis, we need to remember each day that God is here and that our lives give testimony to that,” he said. “Let us remember always that our mission is to shape the currents of our times with that faith, as the stream that gladdens the city of God, and not be shaped by them.”

Bishop Vann is the oldest of six children. He worked as a medical technologist before entering the seminary in 1976. He was ordained a priest in 1981 and is a specialist in canon law.

He serves as the Vatican’s delegate for the special pastoral provision that helps Episcopal and Anglican clergy and laity enter the Catholic Church.

He is a member of both the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Committee on Migration and of the conference’s Canonical Affairs Committee.

To read the entire story, click here.


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  1. man, dancers, at Mass, cardinal Mahoney, sounds like this is the V II limbo

  2. R.B. Rodda says:

    Interesting how the headline just had to include “Aztec dancers and Vietnamese incense bearers at UC Irvine.” This was a beautiful event. The Catholic Church in OC is preparing to really take off with a great new bishop and a great new Christ Cathedral campus. Yet what’s the headline? How terribly sad, CalCatholic.

    I wonder how many of the posters here will carp about Christ Cathedral? They’ll offer nothing except their own personal taste in architecture but that won’t stop them from showing hate and bitterness. Maybe they can take a shot or two at Archbishop Gomez? Roger Cardinal Mahoney was also there. That should make for a few bitter comments.

    Oh, I know. A few tridentiners will tell us how the celebration of the EF Mass will fix everything! I think they actually believe that!

    “Aztec dancers and Vietnamese incense bearers at UC Irvine.” Right…

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Rodda your comments again were tasteless…you are the one who started with attacks on those who are more traditional. Shame on you. It is you who is the problem…your tasteless comments here only brought division and indifference. It didn’t carry a tone of unity with other elements of the faith…your tactics are no different than the liberals, who stoop so low as well with low blows with those with moral values… if others respond to your attacks then, you brought it on to yourself…they have the right to defend….

    • Tell you what; What is good about dancing at Mass? Yeah!! They are going to crusify him, lets have a party!!

    • John Feeney says:

      Rodda, do you hate everyone who isn’t a modernist?

    • Jim McCrea says:

      How dare Aztec dancers and Vietnamese incense bearers to bring any aspect of their cultures to what should have been a celebration of 17th century European Catholicism? Did they really think that their cultures are equally valuable to the church? Really??

    • Compare and contrast the speeches of today’s bishops with and to those of St Paul, or other holy bishops: I find the contrast to be approximately 99%, and the comparison to be approximately 1%. The “church” these men preside over is a paintjob slapped onto the face of the real Church. But what else would be expected of men and their followers who have no faith inside themselves and clamor for the glitz presented them by the Rodda heads of this world.

  3. The men Aztec dancers were bare chested. The last I heard this is the USA and is 2012.
    When men or women are in a Catholic Church, they should dress modestly, and appropriately.

    • Mark from PA says:

      Didn’t they think that having Aztec dancers might be distracting and inappropriate? I think this might be out of place at Mass. I am from PA and I guess our culture is just different here. For example we always kneel at the consecration and during the Eucharistic prayer and also during communion. Dancers would be too much for most people here.

      • Mark from PA, it is on the diocese of Orange website. It was done before Mass. It looks funny to me too, but I am wondering if the proximity of the installation to the Feast of Our Lady of Guadelupe had anything to do with the decision. I have read that the dance has much symbolism of the Holy Trinity and other Catholic theology.

      • Mark from PA, The majority of the parishes throughout the Los Angeles archdiocese have bare chested men and scantily clad women Aztec dancers performing throughout their Guadalupe Masses each year on Dec. 12th. (these dancers perform before, during and after Mass) Each parish’s Guadalupana members spend the entire year raising money to pay for these dancers, drummers as well as Mariachis for this once a year celebration. I am told it amounts in the thousands for each of the parishes.

        Yes, it is not only distracting and beyond inappropriate, but the rhythmic and progressively loud drum playing as well as screaming only adds to my thinking more about human sacrifice in the temples of Mexico rather than the sacrifice of our Savior on the Cross. I fail to see how our Blessed Mother feels honored by this.

        I have a wonderful novena to Our Lady of Guadalupe and on the 9th day there is a line that says, “…and the huge drum which innumerable times had announced human sacrifices in honor of their gods, was heard no more.” Unfortunately, the “huge drum” IS heard throughout Los Angeles and environs every Dec. 12.

        As I see it, those of us Catholics who have remained in the LA archdiocese and who still identify with the American culture have been marginalized to “you must embrace other cultures” status. This all started in the 1980′s. We are now essentially a non-entity in the eyes of the Church here.

        • There is to be zero dancing during any Mass in the USA. This is an abuse.
          Ordinary Form of Mass is governed by GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) which had to be approved by the Vatican.

          In the USA, report any dancing (during Mass) to the appropriate Diocese Bishop, the US Papal Nuncio, and the Vatican.
          Be sure to give name and address of Parish, name of Priest (or Bishop) officiating, date, time, and particulars.

          On the Vatican web site you can find:
          Including Adaptations for the Dioceses of the United States of America.
          You should also be able to find GIRM on the USCCB web site.

          As far as improper or immodest dress, if the Priest does not handle it, the Bishop should.
          No shirt, no shoes, is not even permitted in many stores.
          Certainly when Americans are paying tribute to God they should not be trying to call attention to themselves rather than God.

          • Mike, thank you for the info. As I said before these practices are wide spread in the LA archdiocese, and any complaint I have given here in the past was frowned upon. I chose not to attend Mass on OLOG this year as I didn’t want to become upset again. I am not sure if I could send a generic complaint to the Vatican. Any thoughts?

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Tracy I really appreciate your point of view, when I read these comments it helps me reflect and I can understand why with clarity, these things can be a problem.

          • Abeca Christian, your kind comments are encouraging to me. Thank you.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Tracy that is because you make sense. I appreciate the wisdom and knowledge you share here. It’s like standing on top of the highest mountain, overseeing the blue sky, it is refreshing and makes one feel free….that is because the truth sets us free, all we have to do is be Christ’s light and shine bright in Him.

            God bless you….

        • There should be a revival of bare chested … no, make it bare bodied Neanderthal dancers … I mean, why not simply go all the way back instead of only a few centuries? These people present the flesh to God, Who has no use for it, and they reject the Flesh of Jesus Whom God gave and gives to us. I see the modern church transitioning into the joke church.

      • R.B. Rodda says:

        The dancers in the procession kept people from kneeling during the EP? Really?

    • It was inside of a performing arts center on UCI, not in a church.

      The editor notes: As was clearly pointed out in our sub-head.

      • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

        So why were they dancing? Because mass is really the Crucifixion; what is so happy and dance-y about that, whether inside or outside?

        Is it something to dance about?

    • Jim McCrea says:

      We all know about those bare-chested men!

  4. St. Christopher says:

    Wow — Aztec Dancers! Lot’s of languages for the Mass of Bugnini. Any Latin thrown in there, too? Nice comment about the “spire of the old cathedral” in St. Louis — they say the TLM there. And, of course, the grand marshal of all this, Cardinal Mahoney. Great show. Looks like Bishop Vann is right at home in the land of Bishop Brown. Who nominates these guys as bishop? How about talking about salvation and the need to become holy.

  5. Father Karl says:

    These instillation Masses are no longer directed to Almighty God as a form of perfect worship. They are now directed to the people, and they are used as entertainment. As Ed Sullivan used to remark, “And now for a good show!”. With various languages used, all types of costumes, pagan dancing (the Aztecs killed children often by sacrificing them to the pagan gods–something that was stopped by the introduction of Catholicism by the apparation of Our Lady of Guadeloupe), is it a wonder why Christianity is disappearing, while Moslem and other false religions are gaining a stronghold. We pray what we believe, and it appears we only believe in the world, the flesh and the devil. Our Lady of Guadelope pray for us!

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Thank you Father Karl for your comments. God bless you

    • Eric Augustine says:

      I have no idea if you are a priest or not but you comments are right on the mark – It seems all we see now at Mass, or other services, are nothing more than show – Bishops are no longer leaders but simple everyday business men who really do not know what they are doing – all this due to Vatican 2 – The 2,000 year beauty of our Church is gone – can only hope for the future -

      • Eric, the bishops are the successors to the Apostles.

        • k,

          You’re right, the bishops ARE successors to the apostles but they do not act like them or teach like them. Many have become very cowardly men. (You would never admit to this because your words are inconsistent too.) Their primary duty is to GUARD THE Deposit OF Faith and uphold “all” Church teaching. Their primary duty is the salvation of souls. They are miserably failing their primary duty. Many would receive a big bold black F if they were sent report cards from God. The majority of Catholics voted for a baby killer without any reservation. Many clergy not only did the same, they bragged about it.

          Many bishops did not even have the strength to accept a Papal Declaration which upheld what the Church has always taught. Many bishops and priests still rail and many bishops railed against the Sovereign Pontiff when they rejected Humanae Vitae and we are witnessing the disastrous results.

          Father John Hardon SJ wrote the following in defense of Humanae Vitae. He was responding to an article written by non-Catholic editors of the New York Times who were delighted to report on the eighty seven disobedient Catholic theologians who signed a joint declaration rejecting Humanae Vitae. Here is just one of the many rebellious statements written.

          “Catholics at Liberty to Ignore the Church to Follow their Conscience.”

          “As Roman Catholic theologians, conscious of our duty and our
          limitations, we conclude that spouses may responsibly decide according to their conscience that artificial contraception in some circumstances is permissible and indeed necessary to preserve and foster the values and sacredness of marriage.”

          Father Hardon’s response: This concluding sentence spells chaos in American Catholicism if carried into effect. It repudiates every principle of Catholic faith and practice, and subverts the essence of the Church as a religious society.

          If the Catholic faithful cannot trust the Sovereign Pontiff to tell them what is right and what is wrong on questions of such importance as marital morality, then they cannot trust the Church to teach them anything.

          Conscience is not a mental construct but a living reality. For a Catholic it is the human mind, enlightened by faith, passing judgment on moral matters. To divorce his mind from the light of faith is to split a Catholic into two – one part reasoning and other part believing. The result would be what some theologians are producing, a schizophrenic personality that struggles to make sense on moral issues when faith teaches one thing and the mind (operating alone) thinks something else.

          For a Catholic, the conscience is not only to be enlightened by faith but taught by those means of enlightenment which Christ gave to His Church for teaching the faith. Among these means the magisterium is paramount, and not only the magisterium when proclaiming solemn definitions. To think or act otherwise is to undermine the Church and destroy the Church’s unity. It is also the sure way of creating conflict within families between husband and wife and conflict within persons whose Catholic impulses tell them to obey the pope and whose instincts (aroused by the pope’s critics) urge them to disobey.

          The logical consequence of opposing the Vicar of Christ is to cut oneself off from the Church of which he is the visible head. If those who signed the protest still call themselves Roman Catholics, they cannot long remain such unless they change their minds. If they do not see their way clear to retracting what they wrote against the successor of St. Peter, they might at least leave in peace those who are willing to accept Christ’s promise that “upon this rock I will build my Church.”

          So k, we do know they are successors of the apostles but this does not mean that they are not to be held accountable when they continue to fail or failed to be as faithful as those first eleven apostles were. That is also why St. John Chrysostom wrote: “I do not think that there are many bishops that will be saved, but many more that will perish. Taken from St. John Chrysostom Homily III on Acts 1:12.2

          • Catherine, in 1968 the US bishops issued a paper supporting the Pope and telling the theologians that the Pope is always presumed to be correct. The laity has not followed the shepherds. Even lay people who agree with them, like yourself, undermine weak Catholic’s confidence in the bishops with their allegations of incompetence and lack of faithfulness. We really won’t find out until we die how many were led astray by the detraction and calumny. And again, the bishops are not accountable to the laity-they are accountable to God and the Pope. It is arrogance of the highest order to think that a bishop needs to answer to us. I can’t help but wonder where you got your ideas that the bishops are cowardly. Do you personally know any bishops? If you do not, will you at least spend some time studying their writings or homilies.

        • Rick DeLano says:


          Then let them act like it.

        • No, k, the bishops are called to be the successors to the apostles. Why do you have so much confusion, k? Is it that you cannot or will not discern the difference between what is supposed to be and what is?

    • Ditto

  6. I can only add that we concur with all of the above statements – it always has to be a show. How about some reverence on these occasions?

  7. I Was There says:

    First, the indian dancers and Vietnamese had nothing to do with the mass itself and these were performed well before the mass ever started. Second, Cardinal Mahoney was NOT the presider, Bishop Vann was. Third, Andy, this was not a Catholic Church, it was the events center on the campus of UCI, which was appropriate for handling the large gathering of people who were expected. Fourth, Father Karl, there was nothing entertaining about this event and it was not a show, it was an installation mass — so before you criticize something you did not attend, I suggest you err on the side of caution. Finally, for all of you who are persuaded by the agenda of this article, be reminded of the words of Mark Twain, who said: If you don’t read the newspaper (Cal-Catholic), you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper (Cal-Catholic), you are misinformed. I attended this intallation mass for Bishop Vann and all I can say is it glorified God in every possible way. Bishop Vann is a true man of God and he deserves to be respected for that.

    • I Was There Too says:

      I Was There is totally correct, the Aztec and Vietnamese cultural dancers were not part of the mass, they performed before the procession even began. I admit I am not a fan of liturgical dance and performers at mass at all, however, these dances took place before mass even begun and not during it. If it took place during, then yes I would absolutely agree with the majority of commentators about it being out of place. I am a conservative Catholic who has been reading this board for some time now, but this is my first time commenting and I must say after seeing the subheading of this article…I knew the over the top reactions and the “witch hunt” comments would arise. Finally I will agree once more with I Was There and say this, I could see that indeed Bishop Vann is a man of God, we would do well to all pray for him and his mission, let judgement be reserved for later, for indeed he is stepping into quite the situation in Orange County.

      • Liturgical dance is not permitted during any Mass in the USA. There are no exceptions.
        This would be scandalous to the majority of American Catholics.
        Please see my post above.
        The Ordinary Form of the Mass MUST adhere to GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) – and may not deviate.

        • I Was There Too says:

          MIKE, I agree with you that liturgical dance should not be permitted during mass. However, I would refer you to the Diocese of Orange’s website so you can watch the film of the installation. If you watch it (as it seems you were not in attendance at the installation) you will see that the dances, both Aztec and Vietnamese (which if you ready my post above, is not my cup of tea at all) took place before processional hymn (i.e. the start of mass) even begun. I believe the procession starts at the 29th minute of the film, which means that the dances were well done before the bishops processed in. It was not like we had girls twirling around and throwing flower petals while leading Bishop Vann into the Bren Center or preparing the altar during the offertory. The mass itself, was done accordingly following the rubrics of the GIRM, which I can attest to firsthand not only due to my attendance by my previous training as a MC. Again, yes I find liturgical dancing to be in poor taste, (and I agree with you that during mass, liturgical dance is indeed a violation of the GIRM) but in this case it was not a violation of the GIRM, since mass had not yet begun. Bad taste, out of place, not necessary…sure, but considering the numerous liturgical abuses and problems in Diocese of Orange for the past decade plus under Bishop Brown, this is hardly something the right should ruffle their feathers at. God bless Bishop Vann, and let us pray that he cleans up the issues that have plagued Orange and leads his people on the right path towards God.

      • Mark from PA says:

        I apologize for speaking in haste. I thought the dancing was part of the Mass. It would be appropriate for a performing arts center. It is confusing to me though as to why the installation ceremony didn’t take place in a church. Here in the Northeast, I think installations always take place in a cathedral or other church.

        • I Was There Too says:

          Mark, unfortunately yes the installation mass did not take place in a church. That being said, the were over 4000 persons in attendance, and here in the Diocese of Orange we simply do not have a church or cathedral (Holy Family Cathedral seats only 900 at best). Hence why the mass took place at the UC Irvine’s Bren Center. Sure, I agree, it would be ideal to have an installation in a Cathedral (which is why the Diocese bought the Crystal Cathedral). However, that in itself a topic for another day, as many readers of this site are well aware.

          • I Was There Too says:

            I wish to edit my second sentence, as I just noticed I left it unfinished: That being said, the were over 4000 persons in attendance, and here in the Diocese of Orange we simply do not have a church or cathedral big enough to hold such a crowd. (Holy Family Cathedral seats only 900 at best)

        • Mark, Good for you. That gives me great hope for you. You see that clearly. You are right on that one point Mark. It SHOULD be held in a Catholic Church, but when the true faith has been squelched by those in authority it is not viewed that way. The faith has been watered down for years. Now Bishop Vann is the new Bishop and we will know him by his fruits. The proof is in the pudding.

          Father Karl is right. It is viewed as entertainment and there is a reason for that entertainment. They are not fooling God. They make excuses and say. “Oh, lighten up to our acceptance of Catholic -lite, after all those performances were not even a part of the Mass, they were before the Mass. Mark, Many people attend concerts because they ONLY want to see the lead in performers even more than the leading ACT. Jesus is the only leading ACT in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and there should be no false gods placed before Him. That means before the Mass and during the Mass. Also, there have been bare chested Aztec dancers on the altar inside of the Church during Mass in the Diocese of Orange, so they cannot claim that these dances have not been part of the Mass. They have. There are other locations for these kinds of activities. Mark, God knows our true motives and the purity of “all” our intentions. I truly feel they are only doing this to solicit a mercenary response from the different cultures they are appealing to. The future donators of time, talent and most of all $$$. This is not being Christ centered, it is being business- like and corporate minded. While we do know that God loves all people, shepherds who act as businessmen first are not viewing this from a perspective of worshipping God by keeping the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the very important and separate context that it is meant. You might even say that instead of being Catholic, they are competing with Protestants for that super mega Church appeal. After all, wasn’t it was a Protestant Church that truly appealed to them so much that they bought it and now they even want Christ’s lambs and everyone else to pay for their own personal business endeavor? How cruel. The Mass should be Christ centered without lead in performances period but if you are competing for steady clients instead of working for the salvation of souls, this is what happens. Also, when you are a business man “first” and you have had to pay out multi- millions of dollars for clergy abuse, you ARE more attracted to saving money instead of imitating the Good Shepherd by saving souls. You impulsively listen to other businessmen and you run out and purchase a discounted fire sale Protestant Church instead of already having built a beautiful large Catholic Cathedral available for the important installation of a successor of the apostles. Mark that is wonderful that you recognize that an installation should be held inside a Catholic Church.

    • I’m sure glad the Aztec dancers did not perform during the Mass. I wish it were the same for all of the Masses where I live for the feast of OLOG.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      I think the article made that clear…well thanks for clarifying further. I am not criticizing this event, I wasn’t there…..but I found Rodda’s comments something to crack at since he just threw the faithful under the bus again….its not hard to see who really are our enemies. But I do appreciate Father Karl’s input as well….

      Well anyhoo…

    • Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

      It does not matter; when it happened this is the installation of a Bishop, Everything that happens should be appropriate for the office.
      1. It should happen at his seat (His Cathedral)
      2. It should follow laid down liturgical norms
      If people want to dance later to dead and foreign cultures they can do that on their own.

      • “dead and foreign cultures?”

        do you mean, like, having africans do a tridentine mass that is completely alien to them, in a language no one speaks any more?

        • You have just insulted All Africans by saying that they are too stupid to learn the Traditional Latin Mass! Just because they are in Africa does not mean they cannot have the “The Mass of All Times” Most Muslims go to the Mosque and listen to Arabic being recited from the Koran, meaning Pakistanis, Malaysians, Uzbeks, Indosnesians and many others whose native language is not Arabic, it is the language of the Koran in worship.

      • It is easy for a lot of us to pick on one or two things out of a larger setting and get micro about it. As I read the article, this was a large festive occasion in a large venue. The overall reason for the occasion was the installation of a new Bishop for the Diocese. A primary part of that celebration was a Mass, led by the Archbishop of LA, the Metropolitan for the area. Three of the major language groups in the area are English, Spanish and Vietnamese. The gala occasion also included some cultural celebrtions before the actual Mass. That is not bringing paganism into the church. If you understand that many Mexicans consider themelves decendants of the Aztecs. That is why they often refer to themselves as La Rasa (sic). As I said in another note, we white northern European Catholics don’t think anything of our altar servers bringing incense into the church at the procession before Mass. We have been doing it for generations. Why is it suddenly bad for someone of a different cultural group to do it?. I think it is all very much about little.

    • The church celebrates the Lord in many ways. If you travel the world, you will find that many cultures worship in different ways, but never the Mass itself. This is the feast of Our Lady of Guadlupe (sic). She is a Patron of our country. She is very much revered by the Mexican people especially. The Mexican people consider themselves desendents of the Aztecs. It is normal in the South West and in California (and I am sure in other parts of the country) to have Aztec dancers perform before mass on this feast day and at other times during the year on feast days important to people from Mexico and Hispanic countries. It is also common in Vietnamese communities to bring incense into the church. In the Latin tradition, we use incense burners on chains and swing them. What is the difference? Neither of these things take a way from the Mass itself. I suspect that many who object to these tings are from northern European communities who are not accustomed to being in a multi-cultural environment. The new Bishop has already started Vietnamese lessons so that he can get closer to the people. He already speaks Spanish. Consider LA, where the predominant language is Spanish. It would likely have a lot of “spanish” cultural approaches to the celebrations in church. The Mass of course will always be in the venacular.

      • This is the USA, let’s not forget that.

        We are not giving up our Country, and if you read the CCC #2241, “…immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the Country that receives them….”

        When in the USA, Mass should be acceptable to all of us, not distracting, or entertaining. God must be the focus.

        Again GIRM in the USA must be adhered to.

      • Bob One, you said that “The Mexican people consider themselves desendents of the Aztecs”. I was actually reflecting on this very point yesterday.

        While I am not sure as to how many “Mexicans” actually are descended from the Aztecs, I suspect that most aren’t. It amazes me that when you look at pre-Spanish colonial history the Aztecs were a powerful nation and very much feared by surrounding native tribes. (These surrounding enemies of the Aztecs often became their sacrificial victims.) Other tribes far north or south of the Aztecs probably didn’t have much if any contact with them at all. I wonder how many descendants of those surrounding and far flung tribes, whose ancestors had nothing but disdain for, or little knowledge of (the Aztecs), now actually think that they are descended from the Aztecs and embrace their ancient pagan dances right here in the USA?

        I really would like it if these people, especially the Catholic ones, would spend more time embracing their new American heritage, as well as their Catholic heritage instead of embracing a culture that neither they nor their ancestors ever belonged to in the first place. Even if one’s ancestors did descend from the Aztecs, my sediments remain the same. I mean, wasn’t the Aztec culture, as well as the surrounding cultures, for all practical purposes traded in for another culture, i.e. Spanish Catholicism, a long time ago? (With the help of the Blessed Mother, of course!!!!!) If the Aztecs put down their drums and their pagan practices when they embraced the Catholicism of the Spaniards, what might they now think about their descendants or the descendants of their neighbors, who are picking them up again?

        Then again maybe they are on to something. Maybe I should research my ancestral European tribes and their pagan practices, prior to them embracing Christianity, and start incorporating these ancient practices into the Mass. Maybe then I would be considered as having a real culture by the “enlightened” ones around me?

        • Abeca Christian says:

          I don’t like Aztecs for they were pagan but I do appreciate when they were converted to Christianity! That was a great accomplishment for the sake of their souls!

          • Amen, Abeca! I imagine that there could not be found one Catholic on the face of the earth living today, who does not have at least a drop of pagan blood somewhere in his/her genes. So should we now all start embracing our pagan ancestors as being who we truly are? Was our becoming a “new creation in Christ” at our baptism really an assault of who we really are?

            I fail to understand why anyone, who was truly grateful for being baptized into the family of God, would want to bring back the practices (i.e. the music, dances, etc.) of their pagan ancestors and embrace these as part of his/her Catholic culture.

            Have “ancestry” and “culture” become the new gods for many Catholics????? I believe they have!

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Tracey I love how you explained it, with good reason, I can see why. I never cared for Aztec dances and such, I don’t know why people have to connect it to being Hispanic. To me it is a past I don’t want to look to. I prefer to look to it only when they were converted to Christianity. That is a great miracle to me. I don’t know why Mexicans defend their Aztec history, some even blame the Spaniards for killing many of their Indians, they are forgetting that the Aztecs fought the Christians too…people had to defend themselves from their pagan practices. There was a movie that Mel Gibson made on the pagan Indians.. it was pretty good, pretty graphic but does explain how pagan they were and how dangerous and ungodly.

      • Bob, I have another question for you.

        You wrote, “I suspect that many who object to these things are from northern European communities who are not accustomed to being in a multi-cultural environment’.

        Could you really be suggesting that any American, who traces his/her roots to Northern Europe, which is home to numerous different countries, languages, diets, customs, and holidays, etc. descended from the same culture?

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Tracey I am Hispanic and my dad was Arabic…I think that if people want to watch an Aztec dance, well let them do it in the secular but not in or near the Mass….

          I guess when the church allows these things, this is the outcome, we have much scandal, much division, much confusion and much of those who hate us for forming our conscience to understand how these things hurt and water down the reverence of our faith etc. It shouldn’t be show. How do we defend the truth when our church leadership do the opposite and cause division amongst the faithful…not many know better. Such tragedy…God have mercy on us all. After reading your comments I can conclude the reasoning as to why some see this inappropriate. I appreciate the wisdom shared but I can’t stand the injustice caused by the scandal of these dances that are permitted because you will have from within the church, who have been taught that this is fun and exciting and do not understand what you mean. Even when you have a good priest say that this is inappropriate, there are still people against that priest instead of trying to form a just and reasonable understanding as to why the good priest spoke against this modern way of installing a new Bishop. Rodda makes comments against those who are more traditional, then I start to wonder maybe I am wrong if I go by Rodda’s views because Rodda is hostile in his attacks against the faithful of that traditional element of the faith….I was neutral and now I am more on your side because you explained it more beautifully!

          • Abeca, thank you for your comments. I didn’t completely understand all of it, but I gather that all of this emphasis on “culture” in the Church has confused a lot of people.

            As one who grew up identifying myself first of all as an American and then as a Californian, and then as someone who grew up in a working class family in the suburbs of Los Angeles, I always thought that culture included the language one speaks, the neighborhood one lives in, the foods one eats, the religion one practices, the laws and customs of one’s neighborhood and country, as well as music, movies, museums, etc. that come out of one’s culture.

            I always considered my ancestors, who came from other countries, from different time periods and from different political experiences including speaking different languages, as having had a completely different culture from mine. In no way am I rejecting them nor diminishing their cultural experiences, it is just that our experiences are completely different. My culture was not their culture and their culture was not mine. Sadly, the one thing we would have in common, our Catholic faith, is no longer the same due to all the changes made to the Mass and Catechesis after Vatican II. No, I am sure that they would not recognize Catholicism as it is widely practiced today.

      • Explain, Bob One, why in New England they do not celebrate Iroquois dances at Mass. What about celebrating Neanderthal Masses? Wouldn’t that pretty much tie us altogether by means of common ancient culture? And what about early Neanderthal cultural norms such as without the use of words but only singing like animals using no actual language as we commonly think of it? Or is that what you are already doing? Didn’t St Paul explain something about indecipherable groaning … what about celebrating the entire Mass with such sounds and omitting altogether any recognizable words? Wouldn’t that put us all in the same boat? Why stop at some historical point in the development or morphology of any particular culture? The dances done allegedly by Aztecs were formed at a certain time … when was it, Bob One, and why use that particular stage of the development of Aztecness? Why should the Aztecs be exalted, and why only a certain alleged period of Aztecness be resurrected and splashed all over the ground where the Mass is being celebrated, as if it were the blood of human sacrifice done so long ago by Aztecs? Moving on now, why weren’t Australian Aboriginal corraborree activities drummed up at the installation … are you bigoted against those people, Bob One, that you’d prevent them from bringing their pagan form of culture to such a Catholic affair? And why not simply bring in University of California culture to the installation ceremony … you know, dancing the way they do it on campuses of the public universities of today?

    • R.B. Rodda says:

      You’re right about the dancing. Even if it was part of the procession proper, it might not fit everyone’s taste but it’s hardly a liturgical abuse as the Mass has yet to begin!

      Bishop Vann was not the principal celebrant. Archbishop Jose Gomez (the metropolitan of the ecclesial province) of Los Angeles was. Cardinal Mahony is retired…

      You’re very correct when you say that this was indeed an installation Mass. Referring to it as a “show” (particularly by those not present) is extremely bad form.

      • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

        Not that this will make any difference to you modernist, but here is the official position of the Vatican on Liturgical Dance and it has not been abrogated:

        Notitiae (Instructions for Sacraments and Divine Worship) Vol. XI, (1975) pp. 202-205 state:

        “Dance has never constituted an essential part in the official liturgy of the Latin Church. If local Churches have introduced the dance, at times even in the temples, this was on occasion of feasts in order to show feelings of jubilation and devotion. But dance always took place outside the liturgical actions. Conciliar decisions have often condemned the religious dance, as not befitting worship, and also because it could degenerate into disorders…hence, it is not possible to introduce something of that sort in the liturgical celebration: it would mean bringing into the liturgy one of the most desacralized and desacralizing elements; and this would mean the same as introducing an atmosphere of profanity, which would easily suggest to those present worldy places and profane situations.”

        Of course you modernist know better than those male fuddy duddies in the Vatican.

        Notice the use of the terms “condemned”, “not befitting”, “degenerate into disorders”, “not possible”, “desacralized and desacralizing”, “profanity”, and “profane situations”. Pretty direct statements, don’t you think.

        Too bad that many, too many, of the American Hierarchy no longer listen. Just maybe they are no longer Roman Catholics!

        God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
        Kenneth M. Fisher

        • Since it was not a part of the liturgy, it was not liturgical dance. But, if I had attended, it definitely would have freaked me out. What were they thinking?

        • It is sad the organizers of the LA Irreligious Miseducation Congress don’t give a fig what the Vatican says about dancing during Holy Mass. Thanks to the “spirit” of Vatican II, the Mass is no longer Christ centric, it is about entertainment and the cult of Man. I pray for the restoration of the TLM as the ordinary rite of the Mass and a farewell to the Novus Ordo, ie the work of human hands.

      • Much of the public sees it as a “show” because that is how this sort of fanfare comes across.

    • So why were the dancers there, if not for entertainment? They certainly aren’t a necessary part of the Mass.

    • Jim McCrea says:

      Sorry. The truth has no bearing on what the posters here want to BELIEVE happened.

    • Actually, Cd Mahoney did technically preside at the Mass. As the senior Catholic prelate present, he presided in choir. If you listen to the live feed that can now be streamed on the diocesan website, as Cd Mahoney enters, the Msgr doing play-by-play mentions this fact. The main vested celebrant was Bp Vann, as you said, once he was formally installed by Abp Gomez at the opening of the Mass.

      It was a lovely Mass. The dancing mentioned occurred before the Mass. Now if one wanted to parse through it to identify abuses, we could read Redemptiois Sacramentum paragraph 102-106. But this is old news and these allowed exemptions have apparently been approved by the bishops throughout LA and its suffragan dioceses.

  8. Kenneth M. Fisher says:

    We who have suffered so much under Brown await with baited breath to see where Bishop Vann will take us. He could start well by withdrawing ALL support for the Religious Education Conflaguration.

    Fr. Karl’s remarks are right and to the point!

    God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
    Kenneth M. Fisher

  9. Why the surpise at Aztec dancers, Vietnemese incense bearers? This is all typical “Novus Ordonarian” Vatican 2 paganism. Bring back our Traditional Latin Mass and sacraments, and end this madness once and for all!!!!

    • funny you should bring up “paganism.”

      i did a google search for “monstranc3e” and found all kinds of anti-cvatholic propaganda, comparing our adortaion of the BLESSED SACRAMENT to egyptian sun worship and such nonsense.

      if you attended catholic mass in zaire, you would probably faint, because it’s not all lace, maniples, frozen, etc.

    • Janek, do you forget that we the people are the church. Is it different if white altar servers bring in the incense? This is not paganism. Perhaps you would prefer that the celebration have no reference to the people of the Diocese. We are all Catholic, but not all from the same culture. Your remarks smack of bias and divisiveness. Perhaps we should all be segregated again? In many of the Dioceses of California, Sunday Mass is said in 20+ languages. The hymns are in 20+ languages, the customs are from 20+ cultures, but the Mass is the same in all languages. We live in a multi-cultural society and we need to celebrate that. It is not paganism just because its not in Latin. Father Karl, as usual, is dead wrong with his comments. He is not projecting the teachings of the church of today. Perhaps a quick study of the social teachings of the church would help.

      • We live in an “American culture” Bob One, and by the way my TLM parish is packed with Anglos, Asians, Latinos, African- Americans, old and young and I bet gay as well. This is true diversity at work worshipping our Lord in one Language and not pointing out the color’s of people as Liberals love to do. P.S. our priest is Korean, the name calling does not work anymore for you Liberals.

      • No Bob One you are dead as all modernist are, you are the one who is divisive with your mantra of modernism, you give yourself away. The Mass is NOT about the people it is about Christ and His sacrifice when in the world are you modernist going to acknowledge this,,,,

      • Bob One perhaps if you took a quick study of liturgical norms that would help you modernist mind….Bob One do you believe the primary job of the Church is social justice or the salvation of souls… one or the other no both…. answer it

        • Why not both? Because I am saved by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, I must follow the social teachings of the Church and do good works: care for the poor, do charity, work for a better environment, lift up the voice of the weak, help people achive the best for their families, etc. This is what the Church teaches.

          • Why not both… eh because it can’t be both, however you give yourself away by this statement “I am saved by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross,” so you believe that you are going directly to heaven. So basically you believe the Church is a giant social welfare agency? this is what I expect from a modernist like you Bob One. If you do not believe the Church’s primary mission is the salvation of souls than you are another poorly informed Catholic. And no Bob One, working for the environment will not get you access to heaven…The Social teachings of the Church have been hijacked by people like you for a political gains and it really makes me angry… Modernism must be purged from the Church

          • Why, then, are not all people saved by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, Bob One?

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Bob One Janek is also part of the church…you forgetting that part too. Geeze!

      • There is no Catholic theology which supports your opinion, Bob One; nor is there any Catholic history which supports it. The Church today is weak, perhaps the weakest in history. The bishops have been called to become holy, because they are not. The most vile of sins are being institutionalized in and by much of what is called the Church; never in history has this happened. Behaving like silly children is not the meaning of the word “saved”.

  10. Maybe Vann,
    Unlike Brown,
    Kneeling down

    • if bishop vann,
      at his age can,
      give out communion kneeling,
      i’m afraid the folks at mass,
      will all be loudly squealing!

      he should stand,
      but not demand,
      that people do the same;
      otherwise the cameras will
      reduce him quick to shame.

  11. KENNETH, i always love you trying to post orthodox guidance, when you belong to a church that’s not part of the flock.

    your priests have even invented pseudo-anglican titles for themselves, such as The Right Reverend Monsignor Patrick J. Perez which sounds like something out of the mouth of the church of england.

    • Per Wikipedia: “In the Roman Catholic Church it applies to abbots of monasteries in the Latin Rite and archimandrites in the Eastern Churches. Monsignors of the ranks of apostolic protonotary and domestic prelate were formerly styled The Right Reverend but the currently correct style for them is The Reverend Monsignor. In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, metropolitan bishops are styled “The Right Reverend” provided that they are the primates of autocephalous churches.” So, it appears, max, that you have no clue as to what you are talking about.

      • actually, SKAI, you just proved my point.

        KENNETH’S guy is some priest, not a bishop, and certainly NOT “the primate of an autocephalous church.”

    • Perez belongs to the “OSJ” that also has among the members members of the “Old Roman Catholic Church” -a guy by the name of “Archbishop Humphrey” who is a married bishop (???)

  12. Edward Kristy says:

    k says:

    December 13, 2012 at 7:40 am

    Eric, the bishops are the successors to the Apostles.

    This does not mean that all Bishops are true representatives of the Apostles, If I recall correctly Judas was Apostle. Maybe some, or maybe many, of our bishops are successors to Judas.

    • EWARD, as for judas, they took his miter and crozier away just before he handed himself.

      this was to demonstrate that he was not a good apostle.

      • Judas never had a crozier nor a miter, max. You must have learned your Catholicism from some old Vincent Price horror movie.

  13. Sounds like more V2 style stuff. Vietnamese incense bearers sounds okay. Vietnam had Catholicism introduced by the French. No apparent problem there. But Aztecs? Heathen, pagan, Godless Aztecs?! Bloody human sacrifices to false gods!!!That’s how OC wants to celebrate Spanish/Mexican Catholicism?!! And no Latin anywhere! More of the same…go figure!

  14. Aztec dancers at his installation eh! Interesting that at this level of holiness that the pagans get to take their place right up front. Does that seem fitting to you? I mean the Aztecs were savages mutilating and sacrificing tens of thousands of their own people and they are at his installation. For what purpose? Seems like this example supports the belief by many that christianity is fading away and man is returning to paganism, especially when it is approved in public ceremonies of this level. There is no mention on this website of today’s special feast day of our Lady of Guadalupe, patroness of North, Central, and South America. I guess that and not showing any honor for her are becoming the norm in modern christian society.

  15. k, When another poster reminded you that admonishing sinners was a Spiritual Work of Mercy, you immediately responded that you were feeling irritable and depressed, a death in the family but you WERE well enough to still comment and sarcastically taunt the person who called you on the carpet by thanking a retiring priest in that same post for working with PICO. Is that fair or is it cunning.

    Now you say you are worried about the bishops being perceived as weak because the faithful are pleading with them to do what they promised to do at their Ordinations as new priests. Maybe the bishops are weak for another reason. That is not the fault of the laity.

    Yes it is true, the laity is responsible to seek out the truth and they are responsible for their own soul but many are misled into thinking they are following Church teaching. They are trusting. The laity has no authority to stop heretical teaching or heretical speakers in a Diocese. The laity has no authority to remove the name Catholic from heretical Universities. The Laity has no authority in selecting the disobedient priests who are in charge of selecting school books and curriculum for Catholic schools.

    k, I used the word cunning to describe what you are doing because on more than one occasion you have selectively chosen to forget about the words calumny and detraction and then selectively hatchet the credibility of faithful priests who do have the fortitude to uphold Church teaching. Do you do this because these faithful priests showcase what the bishops are failing to do or refuse to do. Is that why you do not mind using calumny and detraction on those faithful priests? THIS is the important and revealing inconsistency that proves you are not being sincere when you bring up the sins of calumny or detraction. You are famous for remembering particular categories of sins when trying to silence faithful Catholics and faithful priests. How come you never seem to remember those particular sins while you are “just innocently trying to get out the facts” to discredit good priests.”

    Those are faithful priests whose credibility you deliberately went out of your way to destroy. Your actions speak so loudly that I cannot believe that you really care about the sins calumny or detraction, that is unless YOU find them purposeful in silencing the truth.

    • Well, Catherine, I think your agenda is pretty evident. As I learned on another post, the bishops are a group that people love to hate. And anyone who tries to defend Christ’s shepherds (as I was doing when you say that I hatcheted the credibility of priests) is treated the way they are. So be it. How you treat them is how you treat Christ. I do not wish to silence you. I am content that you reveal all your thoughts. I know some people use anger to control others and I assume that it is not me that you want to control but the others who read this website. May God protect them.

      • Oops. I did it again. Catherine, you are a near occasion of sin for me. I guess I must avoid you. I am sure that you are trying to do what you think is best. I wish you would stop saying things about me that aren’t true. I responded to the poster who told me that admonishing the sinner (which always works so well for me) is an act of mercy by saying that it was included in “Help others.” I posted “Be polite” so I was polite to Father Kiernan. Now the main point in the whole thing was that I should become a better person which you can see has not worked yet. I hope you have a nice weekend and can put all this behind you. I know that you did not like that I presented the bishops side with the priests that you refer to. Oh well, I have learned that people don’t want information that contradicts what they want to believe. I had no agenda except to make sure that the whole story was presented. I understand that you have a different view of things. I know that you feel embattled and as such I have ended up being perceived as an enemy by you. I understand it better now since the article where the bishops asked us to pray and the responses were so critical of the bishops. Right or wrong, people make judgements with the information that they have. So if new information does not fit with a judgement that has already been made, it is unwelcome or suspicious. I know that there is a human tendency to generalize, also. The only person we really hurt is ourselves.

        • Also, I looked up a conversation that we had. December 1 2010 Reform Not Enough. This was before you decided I was some kind of cunning interloper trying to silence the faithful. I think as time passes and the new bishops conform to more traditional Catholicism the belief that they are a bunch of unfaithful Judas’ will fade. I think all the bishops standing up against Obama and Sebelius helped a lot of the critical people feel better about them.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        k Catherine has no agenda….that is a total lie and misrepresentation of her true intent. No one loves to hate a group of Bishops…that is baring false witness to the true intent of the heart of those who love the faith.

        well this explains what happens when our church leaders aren’t doing their job right, this is the kind of confusion and division that it brings.

        This indifference is the sin passed down to us by the water down Catholicism we are enduring these times!

        • It’s all because these men who we demean and refuse to listen to haven’t done their job right. It’s not because we are arrogant narcissists who think we know how the chosen few should do their job and demonize them when they don’t say what we want our ears tickled with. Got it!

        • abeca and Catherine, I don’t want to argue with you two (or one?) It has been going on for two years. The crux of the argument is whether God wants people to improve the situation in the Church by gossip about and detraction of the bishops. I have always maintained that it harms the church and it harms the souls of those who do it and those who hear it. That is why I speak up against it. Others feel that they are soldiers of the Lord cleaning the temple. They think that St. Catherine or Athansius or other saints would be doing what they are doing. I have always maintained that if you desire to be a spiritual warrior, then you should pray, sacrifice and fast because that is the prescription that Our Lord and Our Lady have given. I have seen the results of prayer. It works. Making snarky remarks about the bishops and other Catholics doesn’t. So if you really love the Faith you will do what the Faith asks you to do. This year has been set aside for learning the Faith. It is crucial.

        • Thanks Abeca,

          We have traveled down that slippery road with k and it always leads to the same place. A dead end filled with dodge ball or duplicitous posts. On one hand you have a James Carney-like press secretary for the many great sins of omission and on the other hand a defender of dissenters in their sins of commission. Especially at Catholic Universities. k did not have time to write anything that showed great support for Chuck LiMandri. When called on it. k will write something like, “Oh I was busy and I didn’t see that one.” k, always has the time to discuss transgender issues or drag queen shows. k never misses those. k also had time to defend the Girl Scouts of America.

          • This is my “agenda”. Promote the authentic teaching of the Church; promote traditional Catholicism united with the Pope; provide or add to information on the topics brought up in the articles or posts. My attempts to admonish the sinner have usually caused the sinner to become worse. I have tried to councel the doubtful and instruct the ignorant and pray for the living and the dead. I am unconditionally pro-life; unconditionally supportive of the Holy Father and the Bishops in union with him and the teachings of Holy Mother Church. I hold to the traditional values and virtues of the Church. I am a daughter of the Church. I have endured 2 years of persecution from 2 other posters. It began after I corrected one of them. It has been non-stop lies and distortions but every once in a while there is some peace. I feel that the Lord has guided me to no longer respond in any way to these 2 posters nor to even read comments written by them. I pray for them and for all of you.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Catherine I agree with you completely. I admire your wisdom and prudence.

  16. Imagine 40 years ago before Vatican II and this had transpired in a Roman Catholic Church the people would have thought they walked into a nite mare or some pagan festival. Adults holding hands, hugging each other lousy childish music, pagan females running around in leotards like harlots, people dancing up to the “peoples table” with incense bowls, smacks of Ancient Rome, take a look at movies like The Robe, Demitrius and the Gladiators, Ben Hur and others and you will know what I mean. Enough with this nonsense it all insults my intelligence, the Novus Ordo needs to put down once and for all and return to The Mass of All Times.

    • There is no spiritual life in such liturgies as described by Janeck, except maybe in the children there. Too bad they don’t mature beyond that point. And then even worse, because they do not mature, they then rot on the vine with their flowers decaying and their fragrance becoming more like garbage dump smells.

  17. Our hope lies in Africa where most are very devout and the TLM is spreading like wildfire in Africa, I find it sad that so many Liberals seem to think that Black Africans cannot appreciate the TLM let alone attend one, well just take a look at the F.S.S.P. in Nigeria please tell the beautiful people of the shrine Nne Enyemaka that they cannot attend a Traditional Latin Mass how shameful of these Liberals. God bless the Roman Catholic Africans who are spreading the faith to our shores with many Nigerian priests filling the void of many parishes.

  18. Hopefully Bp. Vann will utilize a wonderful resource he has in his Diocese: the Norbertines. These fathers are keen to go out of their monastery to offer the Forma Extraordinaria Mass. They offer the every-Sunday mass at lovely St. Mary’s by-the-Sea in Huntington Beach (highly recommended). Many times they drive up to St. Therese’s in Alhambra (North Los Angeles) or the Mission at Ventura to fill in for missing EF priests. The Norbertines, for example Fr. Ramos, would be a great resource if Bp. Vann wished to obey the Pope that appointed him and have both forms of the Mass coexist for mutual enrichment in his parishes.

  19. My husband is partially of Mexican descent, and my sons-in-law are of Mexican descent. We have no problem going to a fair if they is Aztec dancing there for cultural purposes, but we do not want such dancing in a church of any kind. In Mexico in the past, and I assume even now, such dancing was done on the plaza near the church and the dancers were more covered. The more pagan type of dancing (less covered) was saved for secular events where people were not a captive audience.

  20. It is very incorrect about ALL Mexicans being decended from the Aztecs, there are many tribes in Mexico such as the Mixtecs, Zapotecs, Mayans, Yaquis and many others. The Aztecs were located in present Mexico City which was the captial of the empire, when they warred with other tribes they took captives and cut their hearts out from the tops of their temples and tossed the captives down the stairs of the pyramids. So please do not say the Aztecs were a benign people. Many tribes joined with the Spanish to bring down the Aztec empire, because it was a violent regime, and that is why Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared to St. Juan Diego and to convert the Aztecs and other tribes to The Holy Roman Catholic Fatih.

    • Janek, thank you for supplying the names of the other tribes and elaborating on the particulars. I brought this up in my December 13, 2012 at 5:26 pm post but did not have the names of the tribes, nor the particulars. It amazes me how some, in order to fulfill a need to feel part of a “culture”, actually embrace a fabricated history. This is what you end up with when you deny that America has its own culture worth being proud of.

    • JANEK, your description of the horrific traditions of the aztecs reminds me of what the europeans did…such as what happened to william wallace, the scot, who was hanged, drawn and quartered by the english for being a freedom fighter.

    • The story of St Juan Diego is amazing, and transliterations and translations can be found of his account of Our Lady of Guadalupe?

  21. HOLY MASS has nurtured the saints long before we even HAD the TRIDENTINE MASS, and afterwards.

    it’s not the only — nor “the best” — way of worshipping GOD.

    • Right, max, because it was “holy”, unlike the novus ordo shenanigan liturgies of today. Back in the day, the holiness of the Mass was made so by the blood of the martyrs. The fruits of that blood converted Europe and other lands to Catholicism … but the unholiness of today’s typical bishop is reverting Catholics to paganism.

  22. Abeca Christian says:

    Folks I just thought about something else, here they have Aztec dangers, so if they were to receive an Arabic Bishop, would they replace the Aztec dancers with belly dancers? Just wondering??? See how all this is wrong…with this reasoning to have this sort of stuff, then anything goes with other races as well. I hate the hypocrisy! Some judge woman for dressing immodest, then why is it OK for these Aztec dancers to show off their chests? Isn’t that immodest too? Why are people more pronged to have higher expectations on women than on men? Food for thought!

  23. This may be of interest to some of you. Go the the Oakland Diocese and read the front page article in the Voice (newspaper) about the Aztecs.

  24. The Church comes first. God comes first. Jesus Christ comes first. We cannot make idols out of anything and have them come before Christ whose mystical body is the Church. When you see something amiss in the Church, in a Bishop, in a priest, in a liturgy, or in a person you should consider it as a private revelation to you from God that this diocese or bishop or priest or person is in need of prayer and that God has chosen you specifically to meet that need. The Lord has reminded me that our enemies are only people that God wants us to pray for. That is how the need manifests. God bless you all. Have a peaceful, prayerful and a Holy Christmas.

  25. Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

    Do not insult me with your CONDESENDING remarks about what Africans want!!
    Look at my name!! I AM AFRICAN, and most faithful African Catholics HATE what is being done in the name of the Church.

    Those who think they know more than Holy Mother Church about Africans are the problem.

    Tell me, are African souls not souls that can receive grace through the traditions of Holy Mother Church? In kindness and Charity, Go read about Saint Bakita, and Saint Lwanga, they never heard mass in any other Language but the Latin Mass.

  26. Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka says:

    Try walking bare Chested into a liturgy in Africa, we will see how you will be received and if you can go past the door.

  27. I am glad you have responded to those who have insulted African Catholics by implying the Tridentine Mass is not for them. In today’s time, orthodox Catholicism and faithful priests largely hail from Africa. At my parish, I look forward to yearly visits by a wonderful priest from Nigeria who delivers homilies sans the jokefest so loved by modernists. The restoration of the TLM will evangelize the Holy Faith throughout the world.

  28. and here i thought you were german…or maybe irish…

  29. America has multitudes of ignorant people, which is why they prefer to follow blind leaders.

  30. yes, there’s nothing like sunday worship in a dead language, stiff and unbending, to celebrate the resurrection.

    i’m sure the tlm will change the world back to glory!

  31. If the Tridentine Mass was good enough to nurture the saints, why are you so against it? The modernist contrived Novus Ordo has done well in destroying the Faith around the world.

  32. Abeca Christian says:

    its interesting your comments max, judging from your comments in the past, you are much older than I. It’s interesting how I tend to disagree with you about the Latin mass…..even though I am more of a Charismatic type…always have been but I do appreciate a lot what the Latin Mass has to offer.

  33. “dead language”, “stiff and unbending”!?!? Inane comment, max. Evidently you have never heard of the grace God provides for understanding, no matter what the language. But this proves the point that the Novus Ordo liturgy is short on grace.

  34. Abeca Christian says:

    I grew up in the NO…later on to discover the Latin Mass when my kids were younger. It was some of our elders and some priests who tried to discourage us from attending the Latin Mass, one priest even told me “why do you want to go there, its for old people and many there believe that our mass is not valid.” At that time, I didn’t understand what he meant with that, but I kept questioning why aren’t we as reverent as they are. I told him that I loved how they came to mass all dressed up and I loved how they received communion etc. So we left that parish and looked for a more reverent NO parish. To later on attending A Ukrainian Parish, Maronite and finally a parish that offers the Latin Rite and traditions.

    I know that there are many parishes that have liturgical abuses, growing up, I wasn’t aware about them back then but I have to say is that I grew up having a personal relationship with our Lord in the NO….but it was a more traditional NO… so it can’t be all that bad….I think it’s just the bad will of some of the leadership that has made it too protestant like. The reverence of the Mass and the acknowledgement of the real presence of our Lord, was what converted my husband! If the NO takes that away from the Mass, then it is no different than a protestant service and how do they expect to move hearts towards conversion! Personal Piety can be good!

  35. kook-a-lini.

    today’s MASS nourishes plenty of saints.

    the ones who pout through it are probably not getting much grace, though, i’ll admit…

  36. Your Fellow Catholic says:

    Well, Clinton, Masses before the Tridentine mass were enough to nurture many many saints. And given that more saints have been canonized under John Paul II and Benedict XVI than all the other popes combined makes me think that maybe the NO inspires saints as well.

  37. Abeca Christian says:

    German? Irish? how do the two connect, I can see if you said Scottish or Irish. But German and Irish are way off, two opposites…tee hee

  38. The rest of them don’t seem to be doing too much in the holiness department either, max.

  39. Your Fellow Catholic says:

    Abeca, a true understanding of Catholic sacramental theology hinges upon an understanding that the real presence doesn’t derive from the language used or which Rite is used. Or even if the priest is wearing jeans and sneakers under his alb and chasuble. A higher mass, with more Latin, or more ornate gestures, or with more incense might make you feel more in the real presence, and that may not be a bad thing, but these exterior things do not make the true presence more real or less real.

  40. okey dokey, SKAI, so if the grace of GOD provides for understanding, no matter what the language, i guess latin is of no importance, right?

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