Jerry Brown against free speech

Federal court blocks California reparative therapy ban

Judge Shubb

The following comes from a December 4 story on LifeNews.com.

A federal judge has temporarily barred California from enforcing its ban on reparative therapy for children and teens.  California is the first state to place restrictions on reparative therapy, which is designed to help people with same-sex attraction fight their homosexual urges and develop healthy relationships with the opposite sex.  Homosexual activists claim the therapy harms same-sex attracted youth by making them feel as if their sexual urges are bad or wrong, leading them to depression or even suicide.

Governor Jerry Brown signed a law banning reparative therapy for use with minors in October, calling it “quackery.”  The ban is set to go into effect January 1.

Three therapists in California sued to overturn the ban, arguing it violates their constitutional right to free speech.  The plaintiffs in the case are psychiatrist Anthony Duk, marriage and family therapist Donald Welch, and Aaron Bitzer, who underwent reparative therapy himself and is now studying to become a counselor to help others overcome same-sex attraction.

U.S. District Court Judge William Shubb on Monday agreed to block enforcement of the law until a trial can be held.  He limited the scope of his decision to just the three named plaintiffs, meaning other reparative therapists will have to observe the ban on treating minors until a ruling is made in the case. However, the judge said in his injunction that he expects the trio to prevail in getting the law struck down on constitutional grounds.

Judge Shubb ruled that the First Amendment rights of psychiatrists, psychologists and other mental health professionals who provide reparative therapy outweigh gay activists’ concerns about the practice.

“Even if [the ban] is characterized as primarily aimed at regulating conduct, it also extends to forms of [reparative therapy] that utilize speech and, at a minimum, regulates conduct that has an incidental effect on speech,” Shubb wrote….

To read original story, click here.

 

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Comments

  1. Your Fellow Catholic says:

    Of course this therapy ought be illegal. Minors subjected to it against their will are much more likely to commit suicide than those who are allowed to decide for themselves whether they need it or not. If you want your kids committing suicide, go ahead, support this lawsuit. I’m betting that loving parents – whatever they believe about homosexuality – will recognize that subjecting their kids to this bogus therapy is dangerous for their kids very lives, once they hear the facts laid out in front of them.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      all lies…..Your Fellow fake Catholic….your are just stating your own opinion! Knowing a few who have received help, this has actually helped them. One instance, this therapy helped put the victims uncle in jail….it helped help this child to identify where that hurt came from, when a male child is molested, it is harder for them to actually share that information for fear of being judged or blamed.

      I hate people who just base their comments on feelings…check out the facts, they are a sure deal. With any therapy….there is always a chance it may or may not work but one must not give up. But like I said before…..gayism is a protected entity now.

      • Hey, Abeca, what an insightful post: Yes, banning reparative therapy would protect countless child molesters. So there is one of the motives of those sodomites who have ganged together to protect both themselves from years in prison and to protect their ever new “harvests” of undefiled, AIDs free boys.

        • Your Fellow Catholic actually has a point. While the therapy sometimes causes good, it causes a significantly larger amount of suicides. This particular method of therapy is not the way.

          • The sodomy life leads to suicide, not the cure. Catholicism is the cure, ie the repair, and not the cause. Yes, Catholicism brings to light the grave sin, but the cause is not the source of the light. Jesus is the light that shines into the darkness, in this case the world of sodomy including its physical practicioners and its cheering fans in the stands. When the bishops get holy, then all this corruption will wind down.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Wrong Erol…you are misleading readers…what a lie.

            Heterosexuals who have eating disorders have gone to therapy and still there is suicide attempts….so with your mentality we should ban their therapy as well…well lets just be fair, even a person with manic depression or someone who is bi polar, there have been instances as well where they have committed suicide and or have caused injury to others…why not ban their therapy too because we don’t want to make them feel bad anymore because they may commit suicide too.

            Geeze, see how stupid that thinking is…if you ban one therapy then you must ban others too…..but what if the reasons they use to ban this therapy is what they say it is, then it shows that homosexuality is a very complex disorder and actually needs deeper and more specialized therapy…one which is one that can get to the root of the issues not the ones that help perverts for their sodomy sessions.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Your Fellow Catholic is correct. I am against this therapy because I am pro-life and the risk of suicide makes this therapy bad for children. We need to speak out against suicide. The lives of our children are precious. Respect life.

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Thank you Skai…..I know that because of patient confidentiality they can’t name them personally but I have met a few personally and their families when I use to reach out to homosexuals. I don’t know what the laws are now but I’m sure therapists can’t use those successful outcomes without the patients permission, it’s a sore topic for many. But the few who rejected this therapy are personally speaking out and of course the gay activists are definitely going to use their power to get them to stand out in order to get their way. We are out gunned but I can assure you that there are many great success outcomes from these therapies as well.

          Just keep in mind, as it is, this therapy choice is not one that can be found just anywhere, it is not usually covered by insurance from what I was told, not all families can afford this and many families are not aware that they exist because of how California has become so anti-therapy for gays.

          So for them to ban something so minor, just doesn’t make sense, it only tells me that it is agenda driven not really about protecting patients. It’s kinda like when it was illegal to be a Christian, Christians had to be hidden or hide their identity….well this therapy is kinda shunned by the psychiatrists board, the gay activists have added many threats and its because of that, that they no longer consider it a disorder but the church and the bible still sheds the light and TRUTH….that homosexuality is a disorder and sodomy is a sin.

      • That was really a good point, Abeca. Too bad others can’t see truth when it is in front of their eyes.

        • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

          Dana,

          Didn’t He tell us “they will have eyes but will not see, and they will have ears but will not hear”!

          God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
          Kenneth M. Fisher

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Thank you Dana, I appreciate it when folks read the information I try to convey on here, for I consider it important enough to mention. I don’t like the fear mongering that the liberals successfully are spreading, I prefer the truth and I may not be good at sharing it but I do my best. God bless you sister in Christ!

      • Diane Balch says:

        “I hate people…”. You might want to rephrase that if you want others to believe that you are a genuine catholic. That said, I agree that this ban is wrong based on my Catholic beliefs.

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Diane you are one sneaky one, misrepresenting my intentions, interesting out of all the words on my post, you posted just those three words….let me help you be more charitable and not bear false witness..”.I hate people who just base their comments on feelings “……..OK now since I type quickly, since Diane felt the need to question my genuine self as a Catholic….I’ll make her happy and clarify better…”.I dislike it when people just base their comments on feelings.”

          Hows that….you like? I just hope you don’t take another 3 words of my comments and make me out to be a monster Catholic. It’s just interesting how out of all the comments here, she just had to nick pick at mine….maybe if you would have corrected me or asked for clarity in charity, without questioning my Catholicity I may have welcomed it better and maybe I’d be more humbled by your kindness to ask not to accuse me of not being Catholic or genuine. Who knows, food for thought??

          Take care and Peace.

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Diane PA is Catholic too..based on his Catholic beliefs, he agrees with the ban. I hope this gets you thinking…this ban is not just about Catholic beliefs, we have non-Catholic Christians who are fighting to stop this ban. There is a lot more to it.

    • Tarcissus says:

      It is our role to struggle and fight against sin. Reparative therapy is not brainwashing. You should know this if you ARE My Fellow Catholic.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Tarcissus you are correct..I love how you put it. It bears much truth. It’s like an alcoholic, they struggle too and those that know alcoholics, know that an alcoholic doesn’t want to admit that he has a problem, some have even drink themselves to death. They fight any therapy and when they do attend, they feel really bad and thoughts of suicide has entered their mind too, so drinking helps them escape, they are addicted. They actually don’t care if they die but with fortitude a person who struggles and works hard to trust in God and works with what has to offer to lead him to sober….a happy man in the end, he’ll be, even if at times he may struggle a bit but knowing that he was pleasing to God, that gives that man great character and integrity…especially God’s graces to help him accept His ups and downs with God by His side.

        Jesus hugs us when we struggle with something, as long as we allow Him…there is a special grace that helps one gain fortitude and the gift of perseverance that can give a person real joy in Christ. Hopefully leading him to God’s sanctifying grace!

    • The best way to keep a child from committing suicide is to make certain that he is told his parents love him or her and Jesus loves him or her, and that same-sex attraction does not diminish that love.

      If children are strongly grounded in their Catholic Faith with good catechesis and love, by the Parents first – and secondarily the Parish or Catholic School, suicide will never be an option.

      “Same sex-attraction” is NOT the same as “homo-sexual acts”.

      • For an excellent response to the questions: ” 9. Is the Catholic Church unfair to homosexuals? What does the Church teach? Why does it oppose gay-marriage? Can homosexuals get to heaven? ”
        on the net go search: “What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE”.

        Parents and Grandparents of children with SSA (same sex attraction) may need better catechesis to help their children.

    • Child abuse is child abuse. This judge is essentially enforcing the “right” of a parent to abuse a child. Sick.

      • The judge is protecting children from sodomites like peter, who advocate sin and cheer over the destruction it causes.

    • “Your Fellow Catholic” (sic), your position is A. favors sodomy, and B. removes children from their families and puts them into the domain of the government. It’s called trafficking of children, which we all know is gravely sinful.

      • Abeca Christian says:

        Skai makes a very important point….once parents allow governments to rule over their families and religious freedom…then that is when a huge injustice goes on and not everyone can wear the same shoe! One shoe size fits all mentality, they have an agenda and their motto is to fix the heterosexuals into full acceptance so they can all live a happy life, what a bunch of boloney! Such hypocrisy!

        But if people look at the root of this ban, it is coming from the gay activism, an agenda which is truly harmful and dangerous. They have covered up so much just so they can continue enslaving a free world into their gay acceptance. The suicides will not stop, they think that banning this therapy will stop them, it’s all a lie because they are not dealing with the underline real issues.

    • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

      Your Fellow Catholic,

      Why don’t you be honest and use the name “Your Fellow Cafeteria Catholic”?

      May God have mercy on your soul,
      Kenneth M. Fisher

    • FellowCatholic is a Catholic like our potentate in chief is a Christian and about as offbase. If I had a homosexual teenager, I would most assuredly seek professional help, just as I would if he or she had an eating disorder or severe depression. To put it into perspective, many people here in the midwest are overweight. In fact, there are so many that one would think that it was normal. What if these people decided to say that anyone who was ‘underweight’ was abnormal and that being really fat was the only way to be and got really bellicose about it and forced legislation that everyone had to accept obesity as the new normal and that anyone who wanted to go to a weightloss clinic would be breaking the law and face fines or even prison time for hate crimes as wanting to be thin implied being fat was wrong. Homosexuality is no different. It is a deviation from normal behavior and these cranks and quacks can call it normal and legislate new laws til the moon turned blue but they would still be anti-biological, anti-social and anti-God. What is so truly sad is their lie is affecting our whole society. Liars, liars, liars all.

      • You are right. Calling deviant or abnormal behavior ‘normal’ will not improve the self image of one who would commit suicide.
        Suicidals need professional help, and the parents should go with him or her to show love and interest.

    • Stephanie says:

      What about children that were abused and then became attracted to other children. These are pedophiles. Are you against therapy to change that sexual orientation as well? My guess is that you are gay, or have a gay child, and you are not happy with your life. If you are so happy about banning this therapy, why not use your name?

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation. Therapies designed to change heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual sexual orientation do not work. They are snake oil in the guise of therapy, which is why the state, which licenses (and therefore stands behind) therapists should not allow licensed therapists to promise things they cannot deliver. They cause nothing but stress in the lives of those inflicted even to the point of suicide.

        I am happy. I am in a relationship for over 22 years. I am gay. As to why I don’t use my name here, rest assured I use my name quite publicly in many other places. But here, I have to contend with people who, in this very page, have openly declared their hatred for me, called me a liar, a fake, and a cafeteria catholic. Even though there is nothing in catholicism that supports the notion of reparative therapy.

        • Jesus is all about repair (reparation, reparative, cure, healing, exorcism, purity). Ref, the Holy Bible, and all other Catholic doctrine.

        • Catherine says:

          “I am happy” – “rest assured I use my name quite publicly in many other places”

          You did not clarify what you meant by “relationship”. For example MarkfromPA says he is married. You say that you are in a relationship. If that “relationship” that you speak of, is not chaste then you are not quite as happy as you are trying to convince yourself that you are. The reason that you do visit this website and contend with everyone is that little voice, your inner conscience is still contending with the reality that you are worried that you really might be offending God. The world keeps telling you and everyone else, to do whatever makes you feel good, but deep inside you know different. That is why you are compelled to visit this website. It would take a great amount of grace and humility to admit that. I’m sure that you will refute that this is the reason you visit but that is to be expected. Basic human nature always tries to rationalize or justify many of our wrongful actions. It takes sanctifying grace to wipe away the fog.

          If you are not chaste, as a baptized Catholic your inner soul and being is saddened that you have been given this difficult cross. If you are not chaste, then in the quiet moments of inner reflection you must deep down inside realize that you chose to travel a path away from God. This would and should be a much greater sorrow than anything else. To have deliberately “chosen” to separate ourselves from God.

          If you are not chaste then you must on occasion wonder if you are leading another person away from God which could possibly cause the eternal loss of both souls. Also, how can one claim to be happy if they are a source of helping someone else to also greatly offend our God, who is all good and deserving of all of our love? If you have been in this relationship for 22 years then you must realize that you are getting older. Why are you still looking for approval and permission to keep dong what you are doing? That is why you visit this website.You want to find that permission here. If you were as happy as you say you are you would spend all of your time with those individuals who have given you blanket permission to offend God.

          If you are not chaste, instead of railing against reparative therapy, why don’t you instead rail against doing anything that will offend God or help others to offend God?

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Thanks Catherine for this hilarious post. The notion that -over the internets – you can argue with my happiness and try to convince me that I’m not happy. Well, that’s just hilarious. To try to talk someone into being miserable, as you are doing here, is hilarious. Or else it is sad, vicious, or even sadistic.

        • Abeca Christian says:

          Your fake Catholic of course you are happy, you have embraced sin…believe it or not, a lot of people embrace their sinful nature all the time, they are comfortable in their sinfulness too but it doesn’t mean that they are saved either. You have free will and have not chosen to carry your cross and abandon that lifestyle that God has condemned for mankind because it goes against His natural laws. But what I don’t get is since you have chosen that for you, what right do you think you have to impose this ban on parents and their families. Your protected lifestyle is a condemnation and you have no right to also help others into that condemnation! There use to be a time when homosexuals still had some decency but now they don’t since they came out of the closet!

          At first you think you are happy but it’s only temporary. You have been warned what is dangerous to your soul but you still choose to ignore the truth…..

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Your Fellow Catholic you find Catherine’s post Hilarius? Really? I don’t agree….but laugh all you want but you must take my post seriously because I agreed with you…You are happy….there is secular happiness but it’s not real happiness and it won’t last..re-read my comment from December 5, 2012 at 4:22 pm, they are hopefully not laughable to you….your soul is not something to laugh about.

            Mother Angelica once talked about there being people who do love their sinfulness and she was right. That is why I agreed with you…you think you are happy but someday we all age and then who will you have to answer to…you are not eternal….nothing lasts forever…I hope you choose right before it’s too late.

          • Abeca Christian, Excellent words of wisdom! This individual who refers to himself as fellow Catholic was made in the image and likeness of God, but he has chosen to reject God by continuing on the wrong path. He wrote to some other John, “I can’t speak to your particular situation” but he mocks God by playing God to speak up for what is best for young children and teens. He does not know their particular situations either. This individual has been seduced into believing that he is better than others and he thinks that he is better and wiser than God because he has been enjoying the forbidden fruit for 22 years. No wonder he is blind.

            This same individual does not want others to use the word hate, yet he cannot see that his actions show extreme hatred for God’s Laws.

            If we wanted this individual to be miserable we would remain completely silent. We do not want this man to be any more miserable than he is being with his actions. If we were sadistic and uncaring we would encourage him to continue on the same path and we would secretly relish knowing that he was headed for hell. I wonder if he has surrounded himself with confessors and people who do not believe in the real existence of hell. People who have listened to the father of lies with words like. “live for today.” eat. drink and be merry.”

            Abeca Christian, I am positive that you and I know that I do not regularly visit homosexual websites to taunt faithful mortal sinners. That would be sadistic. This individual is so blinded that they cannot see that they have fallen so deeply into sin. The father of lies has seduced this individual to such a degree that he truly cannot see that he is the one who is being used by the devil to sadistically mock God by continuing to visit this faithful website to taunt those who strive to be faithful to God’s Law.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Catharine refers directly to my post when she says “This individual has been seduced into believing that he is better than others and he thinks that he is better and wiser than God because he has been enjoying the forbidden fruit for 22 years. No wonder he is blind.”, so please let me respond.

            Besides the fruit which you deem forbidden, “this individual” nurtured his partner’s mother into life-saving surgery. Besides that fruit, “this individual” accompanied his partner’s father into death. Besides this fruit “this individual” assisted his family and the celebrant into a funeral mass for his beloved father in law.

            Truly, I’m not better than any other. But I would add that I am no lesser than any of you. Please do not treat me as though I am.

        • Stephanie says:

          There are also many therapists that say this therapy works and is good. Brown cherry picked certain views to pander to the gay community. It’s all about votes, my friend.

          As for pedophilia, there are many groups that say that they have a right to have sexual relationships with children and that they consider this a legitimate orientation. Are you going to put a monitor in every session of therapy to enforce this law?

          You guys want kids to be gay so you have more numbers. It also makes you feel more legit. The fact is that what you DO in bed is kind of dirty and smelly.

        • No one here hates anybody. It’s called ‘free speech’ and just because that speech doesn’t tally with yours doesn’t mean they hate you, as you well know. You’re so used to twisted truth like that obvious ploy…’boo hoo I can’t give my name because everyone here hates me.’ Like, what are we going to do, come to your house and say hail Mary’s on your porch? What you do in your life is your business, and I could care less what you choose to do or with whom. What is so infuriating is you people want to create a world that calls black white and you won’t rest until you’ve brought this country down to your level, destroyed families and corrupted all that was good. Actually, why am I even trying to reason with you. You’re all hardened in your sins and I pity you with all my heart.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Dana excellent comments. I agree with you but I can tell you that it’s time many start caring what these gay activist are now doing. I remember a few years ago when my sister in law’s brother came out of the closet, mostly a lot of people where saying that they don’t care what they do behind doors and that is his choice of lifestyle didn’t bother anyone. (they were supposedly Christian) I told them that they are incorrect to think that way because there will be a time when they will slowly desensitize our culture and they will impose their lifestyle on this free society.

            We’ll we received a lot of heat, our kids were shunned and so were we, they shunned out kids birthdays and family gatherings just because her brother came out and we didn’t want any part of it. We still loved him and back then wanted to talk to him out of charity and love but no one wanted any part of it. Now the very same family members who shunned us, are angry because there is a book that is being read in schools about two daddies…..now they are upset that they have to take sensitivity training sessions at their work or risk their jobs or face consequences. What people don’t get is how gay activism works….when they said “let them have marriage, it’s their business not ours, let them enjoy it too, they deserve to be happy.” is that they don’t just want marriage, they want to also change you and your kids…they want the whole enchilada.

            Its a real spiritual war…we must be prepared and can no longer think they are harmless. They want to take away your freedom to form your own conscience and want to call it hate speech. Just remember those important points….it’s real and there were good souls in the past years trying to wake up America and warn us….what is upsetting more is the false compassion most liberal people have on the subject.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            You know Dana, it was Abeca who quite openly said she hated me and called me a liar ( you are doing that too ).All you have to do is hit control-F, and search for “hate” in this page. If you were truly a Christian, you would think twice before accusing people of lieing, and you might just want to check the facts.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Your fellow Catholic I don’t hate you but I do disagree with you. I’m use to dealing with gay tactics….you use those famous accusations on the people who do not agree with homosexual lifestyles and try to play the victim card.

            So lets not get excited here but I do not hate you…the topic here was not about you or what you perceive as hate, it’s about this ban and your coming on here to defend it…if you ask me, it is you who hates, you don’t want families to choose for themselves and you want to take those freedoms away. Also if I stated that gay lifestyles go against the Natural law….I’m only stating the truth and because your soul matters, its about time you knew…so truly it is because we care, then we must speak the truth. God bless.

            PS You don’t understand that now because of the lifestyle you have chosen away from God…..so your beef is not with me but it’s with the truth.

            Take care and peace.

        • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

          All hail to the all powerful State!

          May God have mercy on America and its misguided people.

          Kenneth M. Fisher

          • Homosexuals have been attracted to children since the time of the Greeks. An ephebus was a young man that did not yet need to shave, a highly prized lover. Now we promote Man-Boy love associations. Treat this before they catch AIDS, hepatitis, syphilis or anal gonorhea.

        • YFC: “… there is nothing in catholicism that supports the notion of reparative therapy.”

          Yes there is… it’s called confession (FYI, it’s a sacrament).

  2. Thank heavens for the first time in a long time common sense prevailed in a court. We still have a First Amendment prohibiting the efforts to regulate free speech. Jerry Brown and the decadent State of California are trying to destroy free speech and prohibit the exercise of medicine and counseling. Talk about suicide: When a young person suffers the pain of having aids or other painful disease, and is told it is terminal, he learns that his behavior has led to an early death.

    • Mark from PA says:

      Patrick, are you aware that in Africa, more women are infected with the AIDS virus than men? Many AIDS victims are women who were infected by their husbands. Do you think it helps these women to be told that their behavior will lead to an early death? I am thankful for many Americans, including President George W. Bush and Bill Gates who have been very instrumental in getting anti-retroviral medications to Africa so that AIDS victims there now have a longer life expectancy. Many of these victims are mothers with children.

      • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

        Mark from PA,

        Your so called arguments are so inane!

        May God have mercy on your poor soul,
        Kenneth M. Fisher

      • Mark from PA, no one has a problem with helping these innocent women with children. It is the men who gave it to them that we would like to “strangle”. Get the picture!

        • Editor: please leave out my very last post as Mark might take it the wrong way, and Kenneth gave him a good answer already. Thank you.

  3. Prof.Helen McCaffrey says:

    What the heck happened to Jesuit educated Jerry Brown? When did he become so intolerant of FREE SPEECH? Everyone had better step up and be LOUD and PROUD and defend your right to express yourself.

  4. Aaron Bitzer, who underwent reparative therapy himself and is now studying to become a counselor to help . . . himself find a minor to molest. End of story.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      I have no idea what you are talking about but years ago my friend and her family found out that her younger brother said he was gay. Her brother found a therapist that actually helped him embrace his “so called homosexuality”. The young man convinced his family to attend the sessions with him so they can all accept him. They went.

      The mum was so appalled at how little respect they had for her morals, she couldn’t believe that this session actually encouraged her son to be sexually active at his young age with the same sex. She got up and said “this is a bunch of crock, son I love you and will always be there for you but I will not condone your homosexual lifestyle, it offends God and your family. I am here for you but I don’t want to hear anymore of this.” She walked out, so did her husband and his older siblings. They waited in the car, they tried talking to them, the session was almost like a sensitive session, as if they were trying to fix his family instead of actually helping the young man. A few months later, they were having more issues at home, they found condoms in his room, drug use. The mum tried to stop those sessions but for some reason, it seemed like she had no rights to. She didn’t know who was paying for them but I guess it was free program through some kind of group. Well I didn’t get all the details but his family, kept loving him but not talking about his new found sexuality. The young man ended up committing suicide, left a note…..out of respect for his family, I won’t go into details but it turned out that an extended family member that he use to have sleep overs when he was younger, had been molesting him.

      The therapy that was used to help correct “his” family into accepting his “so called homosexuality”…..turned out he was not a homosexual but had other serous issues that were never addressed because it was too painful for the young man to openly discuss or talk about, NEVER WORKED either! The drug use didn’t help either.

      So for those that use reasons to get rid of this reparative therapy, well guess….the opposite therapy that makes families accept the gay lifestyle had it’s problems worst!

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        Abeca Christian, do you suppose that perhaps, just perhaps, it was the rejection by his parents that lead him to suicide? Maybe if they had hugged him, told him he was loved by them and by God, maybe just maybe he would be alive today.

        • Abeca Christian says:

          No in his letter he mentions the molestation……no one knew until they read his letter. He also knew that his parents loved him. He mentioned that more than several times, he didn’t want his parents to feel guilty. He also talked about the drug use etc…

          • Abeca Christian says:

            its a pity Your Fel Cath has missed the most important part of that situation. I think that it is insensitive to accuse or assume that the family was at fault for his suicide. Also you missed the part where the family still loved him……they didn’t reject him but didn’t approve of his choices, they were very hurt. What people forget is that these things affects the whole family…it is painful for all including for the person who is having sexual identity issues…its hard for all.

            ….with love and TRUTH we can hopefully better deal with this disorder. There are struggles…..yes but God is right there with us with His courage and strength etc.

  5. some other John says:

    people like the first commentor show that they know nothing about what “reparative therapy” really is. i am someone who knows. it is NOT someone screaming at you about how horrible you are and electro-shocking your testicles as you are shown nasty pictures, like “clock work orange”. it’s conducted like any other counseling session. discussions address the real issues that lead to the unwanted behaviors. whether people want to admit it or not, there are reasons that men like me have sexualized our attempts at relationships with the same sex AND (just as important) de-sexualized relationships with the opposite sex. various events happen early in life and during adolescence, which people react to in different ways. one person might cope well, and another poorly, but it’s clear that there is a high correlation between certain difficulties and same sex attraction. often siblings will express concerns about the same episodes, but found other ways to cope. sexualization is an individual response influenced by other aspects of personality.

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      I never said anything about screaming or electro-shock, so please do not put words in my mouth.

      I can’t speak to your particular situation, but there is a difference between a person’s sexual orientation and sexualizing relationships that ought not be sexualized. Without getting too much into the weeds, I wouldn’t contend that counseling is always and everywhere useless for, say, people with borderline personality disorder who frequently sexualize relationships inappropriately. It sounds as though this may be your situation, but I certainly wouldn’t want to say that absolutely applies to you without a lot more information. People who sexualize same-gender relationships inappropriately are not necessarily homosexual. True homosexuals, like true heterosexuals, sometimes inappropriately sexualize relationships and do benefit from counseling. But that is different from changing someone’s sexual orientation.

      And I remind everyone that this bill doesn’t prohibit all reparative therapies. It only prohibits adults from forcing their minor kids into reparative therapy without their permission.

      • some other John says:

        my friend (and i use the term loosly,) i’ll bet my dollar against your nickel that you don’t really want to get into this argument.

        “orientation” and “sexualization” are always related. anyone might sexualize a relationship that one “ought not.” but sometimes, one ought. (think about the opposite sex individuals that wound up conceiving you.) if the other person is the same sex, then, always, one ought not. period. that’s what’s inappropriate. that’s what you don’t get.

        (“borderline personality disorder”–funny. did you google that, or just read it in a book you thought you understood?)

        wow, you use a lot of words to write a lot of stuff that makes no sense. blah, blah, blah “…not necessarily homosexual.” why? because they do it “inapproriately”? but if they did it ‘appropriately’ then they’d be “true homosexuals”? please stop using words you don’t understand.

        you are way too hooked on the ‘appropriate/inappropriate’ thing. so, get this through your wannabe catholic head: sexualized same sex relationships are always inappropriate. by that i mean: wrong.

        • Your Fellow Catholic says:

          Why is it that when people disagree on this forum they resort to condescending personal attacks like this one, rather than actually discussing the issue.

          • YFC, how do you respond to boring diatribes? Do you simply continue on with little emotional variation? PA does that too. Flat affect or something maybe. Perception typically brings a lot of emotion. Those with little or no perception display little or no emotion. Banal, vapid, empty are literary adjectives used to make such descriptions of characters. Such characters display little mini hissy fits out of frustration, because they know there is something to understand but cannot open themselves up to seeking the understanding.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            YFC you said I hated you….I never used those words on you…you made you the issue….maybe you should practice what you preach first before you start correcting others…you also laughed at Catherine’s comments…rather than dealing with them intelligently.

      • some other John says:

        AND…what is a “true homosexual”? i am as gay as gay gets. but i know my behaviors are sinful. am i a ‘fake homosexual’? if i stop going to confession when i mess up, can i be part of your “true homosexual” club? just askin’.

        • Your Fellow Catholic says:

          Let me give you an example of something that is not “true homosexuality”, and then we might be able to begin to have a dialogue. Men in prison use sex with each other for relief, for power and dominance, and to obtain other favors (cigarrettes, etc). Almost all of them are straight. They had straight relationships before prison, and most will have straight relationships when they leave. They are not true homosexuals. This is just one example of people who may practice same sex for a period of time but who are not homosexual.

          Also, it isn’t uncommon for teen guys to play around with each other in a way that sometimes leads to experiment with sex. But most of them grow out of it, and go on to lead perfectly straight lives.

          As to you and your situation and whether to go to confession, I leave it up to you to work out your own salvation. I wouldn’t presume to know what is best for you.

          • “True” homosexuality is sex with same gender. Sodom was totally destroyed without respect to any “types” of sodomy. God spelled it out in the Mosiac Law … it is an action of sex between or among same gender people. Reparative therapy repairs the person … guilt is removed through the Sacrament of Confession: It is the persistence of guilt that corrupt organizations including governments and professional groups desire … because they use it as a tool to make the sheeple more slave like and easier to manipulate. Corrupt governments always oppose the Church because for one reason the Church deletes the guilt from sinners who use the Sacrament of Confession, and thus makes it more difficult for the state to work its corruption.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Your Fellow Catholic, you are correct here. You gave good examples. Some men may engage in sexual activity with other men but biologically they are not homosexual.

          • Rick DeLano says:

            “men may engage in sexual activity with other men but biologically they are not homosexual”

            >> Homosexual activity is objective, not subjective, Mark.
            Do you have se with men? You are engaging in homosexual activity.

            There exists no tea leaves, palm reading, Ouija Board answers, or crystal balls, by which we can somehow discern a difference between homosexual activity, and those who practice homosexual activity.

            Do you practice homosexual activity?

            Beg God for perfect contrition and get to confession at once.

          • Anonymous says:

            Rick, we have been here before. I have said that when I was a teen that I was a virgin. I was a virgin when I got married. I have never had sexual intercourse with a man. But outside of my wife, I have never had sexual intercourse with a woman either.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Rick, I am anonymous above. Sorry for the snafu. As a teen I didn’t know a lot about sex. I didn’t even know what a woman’s period was until I learned about it in health class in 12th Grade. I thought “girlie magazines” were gross and disgusting. I didn’t like seeing women pictured that way. I thought that I felt like that because I was a good Catholic. However, as I got older I realized that it was just the way that God made me, that I was different, I didn’t really objectify women. But I liked girls, I liked talking with them, and I was somewhat comfortable with them but I was also very non-aggressive. It is funny, I have discussed some of this with a couple of gay friends and they told me that I was just normal and lots of guys were like me.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            You may not have had same sex sexual encounters but you sure don’t mind defending them….what is on your mind and you don’t mind if others act on them…is the same as if you have committed them….that is my two cents….

            it’s hard to believe what you say…but lets say you are telling the truth, then how on earth do you know what it feels like to be sodomized? Maybe you would fear that you may like it and be stuck in that immoral sin or maybe you may have been so affected by the experience that you may suffer with great depression. You lack the fear of the Lord to understand what a grave sin you are here advocating. It’s sick and hard to believe that you have not engaged in it, some how and in some way.

          • Mark from PA says:

            Abeca Christian, since I am married it would be adultery if I committed such acts so I don’t. You seem to be saying (it is the same as if you have committed them) that being gay is in and of itself a sin. This is not Catholic teaching but Westboro Baptist Church thinking. You say, “It’s sick and hard to believe that you have not engaged in it.” Why do you waste time thinking about this. I don’t spend time wondering about other people’s sex lives, it isn’t my business. I have told people here that I have not done certain things because they make assumptions about me. The CCC teaches that gay people should be treated with respect, compassion and sensitivity and not discriminated against. A lot of the posters here don’t believe that and I speak out against what I feel is the prejudice that some here have against gay people.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Oh yes I forgot “gay” people need people like PA to defend them, as if they never sin, as if they never offend God with their acts against the natural law. Its foolish to think that people are against others….what faithful people of the Lord are against are acts against God! So lets get that one clear and there is no such thing as defending gay people as some would like us to believe, because if we really are for defending gay people, then we would defend their soul by showing them the truth not by encouraging their sinful lifestyles!

      • some other John says:

        and another thing…

        how about if you don’t “remind” everyone about stuff that ain’t true. the “bill” (it’s actually now a law,) says nothing about parents “forcing” kids to do anything. it is about preventing therapists from offering help to ANY minor concerning same sex attraction, regardless of how they wound up in the office. no minor, by this law, can seek help from any counselor in this state for unwanted same sex attraction. so bow your head and bend your knees when you hear the name of the Son of God. those kids still have the confessional. and always will.

      • If people are going to study Catholicism, they should begin by learning such facts as the Truth is Jesus … So, when people confuse the word “truth” with other concepts such as “fact” or “charade”, then they are on the wrong path to understanding God or His creation.

    • Reparative therapy is applied in issues besides same sex attraction. Jesus repairs because He is perfect. Man repairs as far as he approaches perfection. Jesus sometimes aids in repair when the need arises beyond man’s capacity.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      some other John you posted an intelligent and educated comment. I can’t stand ignorance and also it is a known fact that homosexuals feel threatened when someone else chose to leave that lifestyle..for whatever reason that may be, we won’t know unless they admit to it.

    • That was really helpful John. Thanks for your input! God bless you.

    • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

      some other John,

      God bless you for your willingness to speak out on this important subject.

      God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
      Kenneth M. Fisher

  6. some other John says:

    ALL of the men like me that i know (who are honest enough to talk about it,) tell the same story. one friend reacted to the family dynamic by focusing on a friend and spending a lot of time with him. eventually they started messing around. his brother got out of the house by going to the gym a lot. now he looks great and is married with kids. the kicker is that he struggles to not let the same behaviors torment his kids. (when a family is messed up, no one gets out unharmed.) my friend’s therapy has helped him talk with and help his brother. the therapy doesn’t “repair” homosexuality. it attempts to repair damaged people. same sex attraction doesn’t go away; it becomes less interesting, less of a problem, so that we can get on with our lives. sometimes, that results in regular family life. sometimes, it doesn’t. like any personality problem, success depends on how much you want to work on yourself. that’s 99 percent of the battle. many men want change in the morning, but don’t when they are at the bar the night before. live through it and you will understand.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      I agree with Dana, your comments are very helpful. I appreciate them. I pray for others to be touched by them. I think that you would agree, that there will be some here who may not support your choice…. that is why they want to ban this therapy.

  7. some other John says:

    lastly, most of the readers here cannot possibly understand what this sin is like. you have the nancy reagan attitude of ‘just say “no”‘, which is good, but it’s simple. the sin is full of pleasure and delight. every now and then, there’s love. still there’s a lot of shame no matter how “proud” you are. but guilt is hard to find. fighting the good fight with this is tiring beyond belief. so many of us just give up and live it.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      some other john…no it’s never easy and no I don’t believe it’s that easy to say no…..you are right, we heterosexuals can never understand, homosexuality is very complex. God bless you and hang in there…my prayers are with you. Thank you for being honest…the examples you give are a few of many….I have met some wonderful men who have left that lifestyle and are married too. Some have given me different examples as well and I appreciate reading yours too. But I can tell you that even some that struggle with it still, they have shared your sentiments.

      God bless you for carrying your cross and God bless you for choosing Christ. You are in my prayers.

    • some other John, there are sins that you will never experience also, so don’t imagine you are unique in such a way. Sodomy is the consequence of sin, according to St Paul according to God Who instructed him in the Third Heaven. When society becomes corrupt enough, the consequence is sodomy, and that is what has been escalating in the Western civilization for several generations now. There is only one way to make a break from it and that is by recourse to Jesus Christ, especially in His Sacraments. BTW, it is not a Nancy Reagan thing to “Just say no”, but a God thing: Read the Mosaic Law and see for yourself. Jesus informs us that He is the fulfillment of this Law of God. Drive through enough red traffic lights and you will die and kill and maim others; so we “just say no” to running traffic lights. Men who were messed up from day one by false teaching care givers have a rough road, but they have to travel it. One of my renters started in an orphanage, then a dozen foster homes, then twentyseven years incarceration: I never ask him what he got involved with in prison. If he ever becomes Catholic, then he can run that stuff by a priest. It is a slow painful haul for him to “become a productive member of society” which is his goal now, and he walks this walk. He pays his rent by obtaining odd jobs by holding a cardboard sign in a shopping complex. People cheat him, some people pay him fairly, a few pay him enough to make up for those who cheat him out of his wages … This of course is what Jesus does for all of us. He is missing teeth, one wisdom tooth is half broken after he tried to extract it himself, and failed and now has to wait for the course of free anti biotic treatment before having a dentist yank it … he has found one dentist that does this free work one day per week. He has no pain killers in the meantime. He is simply gutting it out. He was not born this way; but was abusedly “nurtured” to rebel against society and end up in prison. The hard knocks eventually got his attention, and he is trying to the (not quite hidden joy of the cops who are aware of his past and have some interaction with me on occasion over this character’s antics — they are pulling for him). another John, people are pulling for you and for all others afflicted with same sex attraction and sodomite behavior. BTW, this guy favors the death penalty because he knows what it’s like to live in a small cage for years. SSA people should take note that there are far better campaigns to run than gay marriage and ending the death penalty.

      • I should add that the sins of this ex con are nothing compared to the sins of sodomy spelled out in the Mosaic Law. But look how society today exalts sodomy and punishes “also-ran” crimes such as drugs and mid-level violence. I once disarmed (peacefully, thank God) a large young man with a honed sharp hunting knife, who later told me he had been locked up for two years for armed robbery … Mosaic Law would simply have him pay back the money robbed maybe threefold or something; and Mosaic Law would stone to death men caught sodomizing one another. Again, God’s Law is turned on end today with sodomites being worshiped and armed robbers being thrown in dungeons or killed by cops and victims. The cure? Bishops should become holy.

        • Mark from PA says:

          Skai, it sounds like you are voicing sympathy here for armed robbers. So it somebody shoots someone or stabs someone in a robbery, they are still better human beings than a man with a homosexual orientation? I think most of the people here would rather run into me than a robber with a honed sharp hunting knife.

  8. some other John says:

    AND…

    for Fellow Catholic, my advocate: read it and weep. you are just a man who would never take the pill. what i mean is this: if i had a pill that would change your attraction toward the same sex, (but noting else; love and relationships would continue,) would you take it? i’ll guess no. did you give up the fight? or was there never any fight in you? 22 yrs.? was it all lilies and beutiful sunsets. you’re better and different than the rest of us? i’ve lived the -style a long time. what? i’m just doing it wrong? you are a joke. what makes you funny is you say you are Catholic.

    for peter: you are a piece of work. so, every homosexual is a good homosexual, until they want to help someone not be homosexual? then they are suspect of what? being homosexaul? (which for you should be o.k.) oh…it is o.k., but he just wants teens? do you even read your own garbage? what exactly is the matter with you? i mean, really, i’m damaged, but you are broken.

    • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

      some other John,

      I am speachless, all I can say is WOW!

      Oh yes, I can and do say, God bless you for your efforts,

      By the way, I have friends who are SSA but who live real chaste lives for the love of God and His Mother!

      God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
      Kenneth M. Fisher

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      John: I’ve never said that I’m better than the rest of you. Where do you get such a thing? I’m just saying that I’ve enjoyed 22 years of love and have given 22 years of love. Not just between us, but among our families. I was the person who walked his step mom into breast cancer surgery. I walked his Dad’s casket through the church at his funeral Mass. So go ahead. Mock away. If you feel the need to mock and belittle other people go ahead. I’m strong enough to take it. Just don’t mock the poor kids who ask for parental acceptance and are met with “therapists” who are trying to treat something that the profession says is not an illness. And feeling parental rejected, they often commit suicide. So yes, mock me, I can take it. They can’t.

      • “Your Fellow Catholic” please correct your posting name to “Your fellow heretic”.
        The homosexual acts are mortal sins.
        If you truly love someone as commanded by Jesus, you will not want him or her to go to Hell for eternity.
        You will love the sinner and hate the sin.
        Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:9-10; 1 Tim 1:10.

        • Your Fellow Catholic says:

          Sandy, perhaps you ought to consult the CCC on the necessity of following one’s conscience. If you really had any notion of the saving love and grace of God, you wouldn’t be so quick to call someone heretical, or condemn them to hell for all eternity, or use Scripture as a weapon.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            YFC she doesn’t have to….God has already spoken on said lifestlyles…going against the natural law is a big no no…..something tells me that the bible also tells us that too. hmmm its not rocket science…so Sandy is correct…something good to reflect on. Just saying…

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Sandy (and Abeca), please see for example CCC 1790:

            1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

          • Anonymous says:

            That means that if you think something is wrong, you should not do it. It does not mean that if you know something is taught by the Church as wrong but you see nothing wrong with it, it’s OK to do it. It is not permission to defy the moral code.

          • Ah yes the follow you conscience line that liberals love to use. Hey YFC, its a properly formed conscience that conform to the will of Christ and not one that makes ourselves god. If I had followed my conscience to what I wanted there is no doubt that I would have been a criminal as I had ample opportunity and excuses to be a very brutal. So please YFC drop the conscience excuse, does because you have does not make it properly formed one….

          • Abeca Christian says:

            YFC you are in no position to be preaching the faith to us since you live against it! Because whatever ye preach will most likely be heretical and I warn Catholics to not receive any guidance from your comments…..they will mislead.

            Again I remind Catholics that Sodomy is a sin and goes against the natural law!

      • Mark from PA says:

        Your Fellow Catholic, thank you for sharing your story. I think it is difficult for some people to understand the commitment that you are talking about, some people have stereotypes that gay people are just interested in one thing. John, why do you think Your Fellow Catholic is a joke. I don’t understand this. Is supporting friends and family in good times and bad a joke? John, do you feel guilty about your life-style? Nurture the goodness inside yourself. What do you like about yourself? What gifts has God given you? John, if you could take a pill that would turn you into an aggressive skirt chaser and ladies man, would you take it? Do you think that would make you happy? What is the good of wishing one could take a pill to make oneself something that they are not? Maybe God just loves you the way you are.

        • PA and I quote:”t? Maybe God just loves you the way you are.” This is the kind of nonsense that has infected the Church in past 40 years. Pedophiles also think God’s loves them the way they are they are and the rest of you are in a for big surprise……

    • Abeca Christian says:

      some other john…..I am grateful for your powerful witness here today…God bless you. You are a humble soul….it takes great humility and certain graces to be where you are now. What humble and most charitable response you just gave….you are one to be admired as you continue your journey…….I just saw Christ in your comments. You have let him shine in your inner worth as a human being….you displayed a lovely tone of human dignity…one that has chosen to carry his cross and one who seeks truth. I pray that you continue on that path.

      Jesus loves you, you actually care for others to not fall deeper in that sin, you care enough to encourage others to soul search. You are honorable in Christ. God bless you always!

  9. Abeca Christian says:

    Do you know how many women have died when during an attempted abortion? How many have bleed to death or something went really wrong…how about the minors who have abortions, under California laws, minors can have an abortion during school hours without a parents knowledge…..one big situation, that the media didn’t go all out on it, a teen died because of her abortion, the parents didn’t know until they called and they went to the hospital. I don’t remember what the whole specifics but still abortion is legal, no liberal is trying to ban abortion.

    I hate the lefts hypocrisy. So homosexuals are more important than the teens who have had an abortion and were harmed by their abortion. Both are agenda driven. That is why we can see this ban for what it is, it is agenda driven, not about patients safety at all.

  10. Governor Jerry Brown’s bishop needs to publically announce that he, Governor Brown, has excommunicated himself from the Catholic Church. It needs to be a big announcement and it needs to be very public. Anything short of that sends the false message to Catholics across the nation that anything the California Governor signs is “A” okay with the Church.

    • I don’t know Gov Brown’s Diocese, but if anyone does, send a letter asking for a FORMAL EXCOMMUNICATION (ab homine) to his Diocese Bishop with a copy to the US Papal Nuncio.

      There are plenty of actions of Brown’s that can be gotten off the internet printed out and used as documentation.

    • I don’t know Gov Brown’s Diocese, but if anyone does, send a letter asking for a FORMAL EXCOMMUNICATION (ab homine) to his Diocese Bishop with a copy to the US Papal Nuncio.

      There are plenty of actions of Brown’s that can be gotten off the internet printed out and used as documentation.

      Don’t forget to mention the continuing mortal sins of heresy, schism, and scandal.

  11. There seems to be perhaps always an aggressive exuberance to homosexuals who have seen the light of Christ and are working their way to freedom. This is a good thing.

  12. Your Fellow Catholic says:

    Many of you have said that sodomy, or being gay, is what causes suicides among our youth. This quote is from the peer reviewed journal Pediatrics, which is the official journal of the body that licenses pediatricians:

    “Higher rates of family rejection were significantly associated with poorer health outcomes. On the basis of odds ratios, lesbian, gay, and bisexual young adults who reported higher levels of family rejection during adolescence were 8.4 times more likely to report having attempted suicide, 5.9 times more likely to report high levels of depression, 3.4 times more likely to use illegal drugs, and 3.4 times more likely to report having engaged in unprotected sexual intercourse compared with peers from families that reported no or low levels of family rejection.”

    • Mark from PA says:

      Your Fellow Catholic, hopefully people will read what you have written in your post of 12/7, 10:13 AM, and that it will sink in. By loving their children, supporting them and accepting them, parents are protecting their LGBT children and helping to ensure that they have a healthy self-image and are more likely to avoid certain dangers.

    • Mark from PA, there are two sides to every story It could also come from a guilty conscience. People with guilty consciences often get involved with drugs and/or commit suicide. No one forces people to do these things. If an adolescent or adult brings his male or female partner home, whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, and sleeps with him or her in the parents’s house are Christians parents expected to condone and allow such things? I will answer my own question. Of course not, and I know for a fact that has happened in many cases. Some parents have allowed it, but others make the person leave if it happens again and rightly so if it is an adult child.

  13. Abeca Christian, Thank you for letting this individual know that he is not pulling the wool over anyone’s eyes but his own.

    Abeca’s very wise words to MarkfromPA. “You may not have had same sex sexual encounters but you sure don’t mind defending them….what is on your mind and you don’t mind if others act on them…is the same as if you have committed them….that is my two cents…”

    • Mark from PA says:

      “What is on my mind!!!” Catherine and Abeca? How do you know that I think about doing stuff? Are you people the thought police? It seems that that you two ladies believe that gossip is a virtue.

      • Mark from PA says:

        Catherine and Abeca, if you ladies have children, I most surely hope that you don’t grill them about their dreams and thoughts and then punish them if they don’t pass the purity test. I hope the “is the same as if you have committed them” isn’t something that you beat your kids over the head with. I have to laugh though because as a kid, I probably would have passed your thought purity test because I didn’t really know much of anything about sex so I didn’t dream about it either.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Catherine it was worth repeating…..but as you can see, he will tell you different…the way things are today…if we don’t admonish the error in regular comments people make or the tone they give to mislead our younger Catholic generation….the greatest tragedy is not only losing souls but also being slaves to deception and lies. Can you imagine growing up in a hostile home that is constantly living deception….they look all sweet and charitable on the outside but in the inside it is misleading…it is disobedient to God and His ways. Catherine I may not be perfect, I definitely am a sinner but I truly don’t want to mislead others into sin….I just don’t get why others are so gun ho about it. That is what I call being a slave to ones sinfulness…..God help us, there is so much misleading information out there…I pray that God’s graces will help us stay away from lies…..I prefer the truth….I always pray that others will too. Blessed Mary mum of God please help us identify what really is truth and what is not. Help us to have the courage to choose right, always honoring God with His love! If we fail, God forgive us and help us. For the conversion of all sinners…we pray in Jesus name!

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      D’yall have any concept about how disrespected and disregarded and just hated we feel when y’all want to excommunicate us from the grace of the Church. Don’t ya for once wanna ask yerselves whether it is the grace of the Sacrament that we actually need in our lives? Does any of this make any sense to y’all?

      • Abeca Christian says:

        YFC what are you talking about? same sex lifestyles that are embraced like any other immoral sins…have already personally excommunicated themselves from receiving graces…so what you just said does not make sense to me. Plus St. Paul has preached and warned people about receiving our Lord when in grave sin to be a big no no! He explained it well. That is why many Catholics are spiritually blind because they continue to receive our Lord when they are committing serious and grave sins. There are spiritual consequences. The best remedy is to go to confession and truly be repentant and try to stay away from immoral sins.

  14. But the wisdom from above is first pure, peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, without uncertainty or insincerity. and the harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3:17-18 No man can tame the human toungue, a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless the Lord and Father and with it we curse men who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing; brethren, this ought not to be so.
    James 3:8-10

  15. Catherine says:

    MarkfromPa,

    More inconsistencies on your part. Obama never attended Westboro Baptist Church and Obama has deemed the unborn unworthy of life. That did not bother you. You voted for Obama. Obama believes in murdering unborn babies. You are only proving that you are willing to look the other way and tolerate certain forms of hatred. Shame on those voters who selectively looked the other way and ignored the helpless unborn who have no voice. These voters are not any different than the people they criticize for attending Westboro Baptist. Physician heal thy own form of selective hatred before you bring up Westboro Baptist again.

    • Anonymous says:

      You do know that the Westboro Baptist Church is composed of Fred Phelps and his family (40 people) and that they think all Catholics are going to hell. They call the Pope ‘The Godfather of Pedophiles.” Thanks for standing up for them.

    • Mark from PA says:

      Catherine, what are you talking about? Where did I connect President Obama to the Westboro Baptist Church? I haven’t even mentioned President Obama here. I have learned a lesson that is better not to mention his name here because some of the posters have a deep hatred for the man and despise him. You know that I am pro-life and people respect me for that. However, I try to just read the pro-life articles here and not comment much on them because some people here dislike me and when I comment on pro-life articles it annoys them. It is sad though that some people feel the need to beat up on other pro-life people.

  16. okayyyyyyy…………let’s see if i got this straight:

    CATHERINE and ABECA are now picketing the westboro baptist church, MARK FROM PA is moving to kansas to join in the picketing, and that idiot FRED PHELPS is coming out of the closet as a pseudo-roman-catholic finally.

    in a dress.

    i’m always wondered about that zany PHELPS character, who flies around the country to mock our servicemen killed in battle.

  17. Maryanne Leonard says:

    Mark, if your son came to you and “confessed” to you (turned to you for help), do you feel you would encourage your son to believe he is gay and encourage his fantasies and male-male relationships and possibly having sex with men and boys, being proud because he is emulating his father, or would you send him to counseling so that he could discuss his feelings with someone who isn’t his parent and try to discern what his orientation truly is? If I had such a child, I would let him or her know that I loved him or her and wanted the best for him or her and would offer to pay for all the counseling he or she wanted or needed to help him or her through a very difficult and presuming confusing period. I would assume as a parent that I might not be the best counselor for him or her, since there is an obvious discomfort between the generations in discussing personal sexual issues like this as almost a matter of course. I would let the child know that for dozens of reasons, I would hope that they would choose a heterosexual lifestyle or a celibate life as a priest or nun, because I am only too aware of the anguish and social, physical and mental health problems of the homosexual community due to my work for a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon specializing in gender reassignment surgeries. I’d be more worried for his or her future than condemning of his or her feelings of attraction to his or her own gender, and I’d also be worried about his or her soul in terms of sinning. I hate to think that a governor or legislature could hamstring my child’s counselor in his professional work, preventing him or her from exploring the possibility that this child is emotionally or socially immature and thinks that exploring their own heterosexuality would result in social discomfort and/or rejection and pain. I think psychological guidance should include awareness of that possibility and exploring supportive assistance in trying heterosexual relationships, and that that should not be against the law. What think you?

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      Maryanne, most of your post is really wonderful and supportive, but you seem to miss a very basic point. A person cannot “choose a heterosexual lifestyle or a celibate life as a priest or a nun.” People don’t choose whether to be gay or straight anymore than they choose to be left handed or right handed. Sure you can shame someone into being right handed, but most people will tell you that therapy to make a left handed person into a right handed person is not a fruitful path. It used to be common, now it is pretty much unheard of. And as to choosing a celebate life as a priest or nun, it sort of makes one think that you are saying that being gay is a sure sign that God is calling you into a vocation. If that is what you believe, then you ought to let the Pope know that, as he has recently issued orders prohibiting gay men from becoming priests. And I think there are an aweful lot of Episcopalean and Orthodox gay people who don’t equate being gay with a calling to the priesthood.

      • Maryanne Leonard says:

        Your Fellow Catholic, I know it is said by many that choosing to be gay or straight is not possible; yet I have known countless gay people who have changed their genders by choice, and many of them also change their sexual orientation following the series of surgeries and hormonal treatments (and extensive counseling of various types). When one is a teenager, hormones are raging, and being certain about anything sexual is impossible for most. Growing up is a confusing, challenging and overwhelming business; adding attraction confusion just further complicates the task, and kids often benefit from counseling and trying new things with encouragement from an older, preferably professional, confidant or counselor. As to Pope Benedict’s edict to prohibit gay men from becoming priests, I am of the opinion this has resulted in seemingly gay young men just denying their orientation, based on what I have observed among the seminarians. It is my belief that more than half of the young priests and seminarians I know would be presumed to be gay if they were circulating among their male and female peers, whether or not they can or would admit this to themselves. Now they know better than to admit this to their advisors and perhaps not to their peers either, or they will face termination. Our desperation for priests, and their desperation for escaping this concern, has lead countless young men into the priesthood, and a sort of “don’t ask, don’t tell, and don’t even think about it” mentality has taken over Catholicism around the world. If priests would simply always honor their vows of celibacy, I don’t see what the problem would be. Many a fine priest I’ve thought to be gay has contributed much to the world, and Catholics teach that simply being gay is not a sin. I understand Pope Benedict’s overwhelming frustration has led to this decision, but in a court of law, I believe it would be seen as discriminating against the innocent before they have committed any crime. Knowing human nature and watching our parishes devastated financially and spiritually has led the Pope to conclude this is the wisest course, and I do not know if anyone else could make a better decision. This complex problem is not merely that of the individual; it is a problem for all of society, and for the major institutions that serve our human needs, such as the military, educational, and religious institutions of the world, not just for the Roman Catholic Church. So complicated.

        • Mark from PA says:

          Marianne, you post of 12/10, 8:16 PM is excellent and right on target. I think you are correct in your assessment of gay priests. Many of our gay priests are gay in a passive sense and don’t really identify as gay even though they are gay in a biological sense. Gay people are a very diverse lot and some can be suited for the priesthood and others not. Men with strong sex drives, gay or straight, are better off not in the priesthood. And you are correct, we shouldn’t discriminate against the innocent.

  18. Mark from PA says:

    Maryanne, I think it is OK to let one’s child have therapy but the problem is with unproven therapies that have empty claims that they can change the sexual orientation of people. We are only talking about certain therapies here that have been shown to harm some young people. Also, I don’t believe that teens should be sexually active. I am certainly against young people having sex with adults. So young people need to be warned against adults that sometimes use and exploit young people. You speak of working for a doctor that performed sexual reassignment surgery but this is something totally different from a homosexual orientation. I don’t really know a lot about sexual reassignment surgery.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      Who cares what PA thinks…..the facts are what matter more…the facts of not only what matters in TRUTH but also what matters in perseverance and fortitude to permit the freedom to those whom seek answers……therapeutic ones.

      I just spoke to a good close friend regarding this ban, he also pointed out that they are threatened by it mostly due to it being a faith based option…….

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