The words of Jesus Christ

Lay movements speak strongly in Rome
Cardinal Baldisseri

Cardinal Baldisseri

The following comes from a Jan. 28 posting on Eponymous Flower. Some editing has been done by Cal Catholic editors to smooth the translation.

Preparations continue for the Synod of Bishops on the family in 2015. The Pontifical Family Council invited the leaders of the world’s most important Catholic lay movements from January 22nd to the 24th to Rome to hear their views on the questions of the questionnaire, which will be the basis of the Instrumentum laboris  of the synod. But the result was not as Cardinal Baldisseri, the secretary general of the Synod of Bishops, had planned.  The cardinal, who acted as an extended arm of Pope Francis at the Synod of Bishops in 2014, was angry and broke out with rage in his statements against the lay representatives.

Father Santiago Martín, founder of the Franciscans of Mary, summarized the opinions of lay associations in an essay titled: “Catholic Laity: Discount, No thanks!”

“Virtually all lay movements represented in Rome have spoken out in favor of retaining the traditional doctrine…. Practically all those present in Rome, about eighty movements, spoke in favor of retaining the traditional doctrine. Everyone says that the process of marriage annulments should be accelerated, but without making a Catholic divorce of it, and that the divorcee is to be met with great love, so that they do not feel excluded from the Church, but without prejudice to the Eucharist becoming devalued.”

Cardinal Baldisseri reacted angrily to the opinions of the laity. He defended the “right” of Cardinal Kasper against criticism of the laity, to require the approval of adulterers to Communion.

Baldisseri told the lay representatives they should “not be surprised” that there are theologians who oppose the teaching of the Church. The cardinal claimed that the dogmas of the Church “evolved” and that “there is no point to hold a synod, if you then just repeat what was always said.”

Indignation among those present broke out at Cardinal Baldisseri’s final assertion: “Just because a certain understanding 2000 years ago was in a place that does not mean that it can not be called into question.”

Patrick Buckley, the international representative of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (U.K.), commenting on the statements, said, “The Church’s teaching on the indissolubility of marriage is based on the words of Jesus Christ. These words may have been spoken 2000 years ago but remain an immutable law of God for the Catholics, nothing more and nothing less.”

Mary Madise, director of Voice of the Family, said, “Cardinal Baldisseri publicly corrected one delegate, who protested the attacks against the Catholic doctrine. Unmistakably, the same thing did not happen not so shortly afterwards, where another delegate denied the Church’s teaching on contraception. One had the impression that there is only one sin today, the defense of what the Church has always taught. ”

….Voice of the Family called for all Catholics to unite in prayer so the Catholic doctrine marriage and family is affirmed in any document of the Pontifical Family Council in the wake of the conference.

 

 

 

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  1. St. Christopher says:

    Cardinal Baldisseri, like Abp. Forte, is evil, and makes no bones about what will happen at the Synod. Of course, he makes a show of saying that all should bring their passion, and fists, to the Synod. But who is he kidding.

    First, the Pope administers the “Tercio de Varas” where the bull is weakened, so that the killing thrust can more easily be made. Out go the Orthodox, men like Cardinal Burke, and others, that will not sit idly by while the Faith is mocked. Now, the Synod will be full (at least 2/3) of cowards, sissy men, pansies at heart, who fear the Pope and his henchmen and will do nothing to save the Faith.

    Baldisseri is the chief among the villains. He will lead others around by the nose as they make up a new Faith, “welcoming” sodomites and their “gifts”. They had just as soon welcome Satan. These men are frauds and charlatans; but, judging from the Vatican, they will be embraced as heroes. This result is kind of like the apostate priest, Miguel d’Escoto Brockmann, who finds that the Holy Spirit sends His message through Fidel Castro.

    Time to make these men find a job and pay for themselves. Only the Faithful have a chance to lead in the Catholic Church.

    • You are exactly spot on in your assessment of Casper, Baldisserti and the others who woul dundermine the Timeless Doctrines of The Church. May God preserve the Catholic Faith and Doctrine in tact through this time of madness. Jesus, i trust in you.

  2. Anonymous says:

    I think some things have been left out of this presentation of the meeting. You might want to read this to see what the Cardinal said in context. http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/article/top-official-of-synod-on-the-family-counters-conservatives-arguments-5250287669346304

    • Clinton R. says:

      Anon at 8:58am: what is contained in Cardinal Baldisseri’s statement is nothing more than modernist malarkey. What was true yesterday is true forever. The modernist/heretics/progressives are attempting to change the meaning of Our Lord’s word and the timeless teachings of His Church. All of this is in direct opposition to anathemas declared by faithful popes of the Church, such as Pius IX.

    • The link you provided is not complete, and therefore not accurate.
      https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/cardinal-baldisseri-furthers-post-synod-confusion

      • This is taken from VoiceoftheFamilty like the one below.
        It has very little information on what the Cardinal said. It has a lot of interpretation of what the Cardinal said.
        The aletiea article seems to have the most direct quotes of what the Cardinal actually said and when the quotes are taken in context, the interpretation by Voice of the Family seems inaccurate and incomplete.
        I agree with Voice of the Family on the position that the traditional doctrine and discipline should be retained. I would add that the current practice of priests giving communion to those married and divorced outside of Mass so that scandal does not occur should be questioned. This is called the internal forum solution. It is only supposed to be applied in this case:
        “The couples may be allowed to receive the sacraments on two conditions, that they try to live according to the demands of Christian moral principles and that they receive the sacraments in churches in which they are not known so that they will not create any scandal.”
        However in practice, since it is so secretive, do you have confidence that it is? Then there is the issue of whether the couple contracted a civil marriage which is also illicit. It has the potential to be abused. And I have heard it said that it is a matter between the couple and their confessor.

        • Any Bishop or Priest who knowingly gives Holy Communion to anyone choosing to continue living in the state of Mortal Sin (sexual activity with the valid spouse of another) is a remote participant in the Mortal Sin by approving it, and also Sacrilege;
          and is direct opposition to the Doctrine of the Faith.

          CCC: “1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
          – by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
          – by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
          – by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
          – by protecting evil-doers. “

    • Anonymous, Representatives of “Voice of the Family” attended the conference held by the Pontifical Council for the Family in Rome from January 22-24.
      http://voiceofthefamily.info/wordpress/

      The link you provided left out too many facts regarding actions and statements of the Cardinal – and thus an inaccurate spin.

      • I think the Voice of the Family statement reflects their level of understanding.
        Cardinal Baldisseri did not support Cardinal Kasper’s proposal.

        • RICHARD S. says:

          Anonymous, you can not defend heretics (of any Clergy rank) – when they say: “that the dogmas of the Church “evolved” and that “there is no point to hold a synod, if you then just repeat what was always said.”

          This includes Baldessari, Kasper, Forte and some others.

          Here is another link: https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/cardinal-baldisseri-furthers-post-synod-confusion

          In addition, any Clergy who say one thing, and then correct it when they get caught violating the Doctrine of the Faith – are deceitful when it happens more than once.

          Let us remember who invited the heretics to be guest speakers at the 2014 Synod.
          Keep your eyes open.

          • I am not defending a heretic. I am simply looking for the best, most accurate description of what took place at this forum.
            The link you provide has not a single quote of Cardinal Baldisseri.
            The article on the voice of the family website is the same thing.
            The article run here by Cal-Catholic is better than that one.
            The aletiea article is even better. It is not supportive of Cardinal Baldisseri.
            Cardinal Raymond Burke has said “the Church has always known theological disputes and strong confrontations in which theologians and cardinals were led to give their views.” This is similar to what Cardinal Baldisseri said.
            I stand with Cardinal Burke on his position that discipline should reflect doctrine and that no change should be made.

          • I am not defending a heretic. I do not agree with Cardinal Kasper. I do not know Cardinal Baldisseri’s position. It is not in the articles. Although he seems sympathetic to change when he is quoted saying “What do we do with these people? We can’t remain with the status quo…If they have children to look after, or elderly parents from the second marriage that need help, what do they do? Is someone to be left alone, because a husband or wife took another road?” (Although in the US I do not think people remarry out of necessity, in other places in the world there may be other pressures. But this does not excuse it or justify it.)
            As for the evolution or development of dogma, this is Church teaching:
            “The tradition which comes from the apostles develops in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down. This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts, through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through episcopal succession the sure gift of truth. For, as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her” (Dei Verbum 8).

    • Anonymous, do not defend a heretic.
      High ranking clergy should be defending “The words of Jesus Christ’, not Kasper, Forte and other evil clergy.
      And not even the Pope for inviting heretics to be presenters/speakers at the 2014 Synod.

      regarding Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium – – – – –
      CCC: “86 Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant.
      It teaches only what has been handed on to it.
      At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully.
      All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith.”

      Baldiserri thinks he and his heretical buddies can change dogma and the doctrine of the faith under the guise of being ‘pastoral’, merciful and charitable’ – for those who choose to continue living in Mortal Sin.

  3. Just because someone is a Cardinal, Bishop, Priest or Nun does not mean that they can be also be a HERETIC – such as Baldisseri, Kasper, Forte and some others.
    Jesus, Himself, warned us about wolves in sheeps’ clothing – Mt 7:15.
    (Pray daily that Pope Francis stops surrounding himself with heretics.)

    Church definition – CCC: ” 2089 INCREDULITY is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.
    HERESY is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;
    APOSTACY is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; …”

  4. “Just because a certain understanding 2000 years ago was in a place that does not mean that it can not be called into question.” – Baldisseri

    In the case of Baldisseri and his cohorts, he is calling JESUS a LIAR regarding Divorce with remarriage – see Sacred Scripture.

    He is a heretic also against Vatican II, which is not 2000 years old, but younger than Baldisseri, Kasper, etc.
    DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION on DIVINE REVELATION – “DEI VERBUM” – Chapter III named: SACRED SCRIPTURE, ITS INSPIRATION AND DIVINE INTERPRETATION , #11.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm

  5. Teaching about ADULTERY:
    “Thou shall not commit Adultery” – GOD’s Commandment Ex 20:14 ; Deut 5:18.
    “Thou shall not covet thy Neighbor’s wife” – GOD’s Commandment Ex 20:17 ; Deut 5.20.
    Teachings of JESUS about divorce and remarriage – Mk 10:6-12; Mt 5:32.
    Teaching of JESUS about adultery, mercy, and required repentance – “Go and Sin NO more” Jn 8:11.

    Teaching about HOMOSEXUAL ACTS:
    Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:9-10; 1 Tim 1:10; Jude 1:7

    Teaching about RECEIVING COMMUNION UNWORTHILY:
    St Paul – 1 Cor 11:27-30 about condemnation for receiving Holy Communion unworthily.

    CCC: ” 81 Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.
    And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its ENTIRETY the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.
    It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching. “

  6. Catholics who are DIVORCED and CIVILLY REMARRIED
    already have 3 (THREE) choices – – – which Baldiserri and other heretics refuse to acknowledge.

    1) If they believe that there may be an impediment to their first marriages which may make those marriages invalid,
    they should immediately contact their own Diocese Office for information on the Marriage Tribunal and get the appropriate forms.
    (Truth is critical. One can lie to other humans, but not to Jesus at his particular judgment.)

    2) CCC: ” 1650 Today there are numerous Catholics in many countries who have recourse to civil divorce and contract new civil unions.
    In fidelity to the words of Jesus Christ – “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery” the Church maintains that a new union cannot be recognized as valid, if the first marriage was.
    If the divorced are remarried civilly, they find themselves in a situation that objectively contravenes God’s law.
    Consequently, they cannot receive Eucharistic communion as long as this situation persists.
    For the same reason, they cannot exercise certain ecclesial responsibilities. Reconciliation through the sacrament of Penance can be granted only to those who have REPENTED for having violated the sign of the covenant and of fidelity to Christ,
    and who are committed to living in COMPLETE CONTINENCE.”

    3) Civilly re-marrieds can continue a sexual relationship with the “valid spouse” of another, and not receive Holy Communion, but must raise any children in the Catholic Faith.

    The choice is theirs.

    See the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition” for additional important information. # 1646 – 1651; 2380 – 2386.

  7. Here is a petition to Pope Francis.
    Tradition, Family and Property (TFP) and dozens of pro-family groups are gathering signatures on a worldwide petition to Pope Francis, asking him to defend marriage and family at the upcoming Synod in Rome.
    Read the petition linked.

    NOTE: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Schneider have already signed this petition.

    http://www.tfpstudentaction.org/what-we-do/news-and-updates/news-release-concerned-catholics-launch-worldwide-petition-to-pope-francis.html

  8. Baldisseri and his buddy theologians should keep their personal heretical opinions to themselves.

    Far too many high ranking Clergy have forgotten about the Mortal Sin of SCANDAL which is particularly severe when acting as a Cardinal, Bishop or Priest at a public/official function.

    Due to lousy catechesis by Bishops, Priests, and Nuns including the promulgation of errors over the past 50 years, – many are scandalized especially in this day of the information network.
    Undoing untruths to all who see them is impossible, since they may not see corrections. Corrections by the Clergy should not be necessary.

    CCC: ” 2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized.
    It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
    Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others.
    Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.”

    CCC: “2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil.

  9. The 4th GREAT CRISIS in the Catholic Church:
    Sexual Schism 01-30
    http://www.churchmilitant.tv/platform/?today=2015-01-30

    Everything being addressed in the 2014 Synod was obviously or remotely related to sex – whether it be divorced and civilly remarried (adultery),
    homosexual acts, fornication, or contraception.

    The 2014 SYNOD did NOT state that literate Catholics should be actively encouraged to read the Bible and CCC.
    And that catechesis by Bishops and Priests has been ROTTEN over the last 50 years, making them significantly responsible for today’s crisis within the Church.
    If the Synod was sincere about these problems – they would go to the root of the problem – lack of accurate and constant teaching.

  10. Linda Maria says:

    This Synod is a FRAUD!! As for heretical, immoral, apostate, “sissy Cardinals,” babyish “yes men” to the Pope– Christ will say, finally, “I do not know you,” and St. Peter will not open the gates of Heaven to them! Then, they will have to pay for their sins! They are denying Christ’s teachings— and therefore, denying Christ Himself! The Pope, likewise! Satan has these weak men in his jaws! They all seem to confuse a true, honestly practicing Catholic, with just any nominal “Catholic in name only,” — who is not a true believer! Such people are truly liars!! They all are immoral, apostate heretics, who do not place love of God and following Christ, as first in their lives! If they were truly practicing their Faith– these people with “marriage problems,” would have long ago lived right, and gotten proper help at their parish churches, for their “problematic” love lives! The immoral, near-apostate and near- heretical modern Church, does not want to correctly support, uphold, and help the true, honest practicing Catholic, who is truly devoted to Our Lord! DISHONEST!! A FRAUD!!

  11. “Just because a certain understanding 2000 years ago was in a place that does not mean that it can not be called into question.” – Baldisseri

    I believe this was mis-translated. It should be “Who cares if some guy named Jesus Christ said this 2000 years ago. So what!”

    • St. Christopher says:

      You are correct, “hockeyCEO”: people like Cardinal Baldisseri are modernists, who believe that currency means truth. Tradition is for history books, not for Faith. This means, certainly, that he is not living a Catholic life, as are so many that are “leaders” in the Church today.

      The problem, of course, is the Pope. Francis simply puts these guys in power, seems to approve of their heresies (i.e., the “minority” paragraphs on homosexuality that Francis insisted on being published as part of the “text” of the past Synod, giving them far more prestige that is warranted), and continues to punish anything that is “Traditional” (the list is far longer than just the Franciscan Friars/Sisters of the Immaculate, and now is world wide in terms of effectively firing “Traditionalist” priests, bishops and the like, including cardinals such as Cardinal Burke).

      Francis is a poor Pope, and perhaps worse; such things have happened. Some very good Catholic commentators, like Michael Voris, refuse to criticize Francis, but that is misguided. The Pope is subject to criticism and rebuke, with only a very small area where this is not true. Pray for Francis, truly, but step up a “polite and respectful” campaign advising the Holy Father that he is wrong in many things, and needs to control apostasy. Merely being popular means nothing, and in fact is often a marker for concern, as doing the right thing is most often difficult and resisted by Mankind.

    • Anonymous says:

      I agree that doctrine and discipline should not be changed however:
      No where in Scripture does it say that divorced and remarried people cannot take communion.
      It is a decision of the Church based on the Magisterium’s interpretation of Scripture. So what if they want to look at it again? They most likely will come to the same conclusion that they always have.

      • Anonymous you sure must have a very STRANGE Bible – perhaps only yours has the following missing ?

        “Thou shall not commit Adultery” – GOD’s Commandment
        Ex 20:14 ; Deut 5:18.
        “Thou shall not covet thy Neighbor’s wife” – GOD’s Commandment
        Ex 20:17 ; Deut 5.20.
        JESUS about divorce and remarriage – Mk 10:6-12; Mt 5:32.
        JESUS about adultery, mercy, and required repentance – “Go and Sin NO more” Jn 8:11.

        About homosexual acts:
        Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:9-10; 1 Tim 1:10; Jude 1:7

        1 Cor 11:27-30 about CONDEMNATION for receiving HOLY COMMUNION unworthily.

      • St. Christopher says:

        “Anonymous”: You are so entirely ignorant of the Church, most likely purposefully so. Christ created communion, as you know. Christ also said, “Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” Matt. 19:6 (DRA). Therefore, scripturally, there is a prohibition against divorce.

        Further, St. Paul discussed the damnation awaiting those that take communion unworthily: “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 11:29.

        Let’s see, putting these all together: (1) Christ created communion; (2) Christ directed that there be no divorce; and (3) taking communion unworthily means the second death: Hell. All of this is found in scripture.

        Your problem, “Anonymous” is that you believe what you read from the Zombie-Liberal speaking points on the internet. Lies, lies, and more lies. Better to follow the Bible.

        .

        • Anonymous says:

          Very good. You can follow the Church’s thinking.
          I do not know what a zombie-liberal is.
          I am opposed to divorce. So how does one get an annulment, then?
          I follow the Bible closer than you do.

          • Anonymous, one can get an annulment only when it can be proven that a marriage was never valid in the first place.
            In other words, no true Catholic marriage ever took place (only the appearance of a marriage).

            If anyone believes that they ‘may’ have a case for an Annulment, they should contact their own Diocese Office marriage tribunal immediately for info and paperwork.
            (Always be truthful in the paperwork. One can lie to other human beings, but we can not lie to Jesus at our particular judgment at death.)

          • To petition for a declaration of nullity, you must be civilly divorced. The Church teaches that divorce is a great evil. The bible says that the Lord hates divorce. Jesus says that divorce is not part of the Creator’s plan.

  12. RICHARD S. says:

    The Good, the Bad, and the UGLY –

    We must always respect and honor the Office of the Pope and Office of Bishops – as instituted by Christ.
    But if any of these humans encourage sin, we must disobey. If any of these humans give Scandal – we must know they are wolves in sheeps clothing, and our Lord to uttered this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”
    Keep an eye on the high ranking Clergy at the 2015 Synod.
    Know your Faith from the Bible as well as the CCC.
    Evil sews confusion – they say or do some things that are good, and mix in things that are bad.

    In the history of the Church of the 267 Popes, there have been 12 EVIL and MORALLY CORRUPT Popes (including Alexander VI who had several illegitimate children including Lucrezia Borgia), and Benedict IX who was a playboy.

    Our Lord chose 12 humans to be is Apostles including Judas Iscariot. He did this for a reason.
    All were sinners. Judas did not ask for God’s forgiveness as did the others.

    http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2014/10/18/0770/03044.html
    and
    http://angelqueen.org/2015/01/29/cardinal-baldisseri-confirms-pope-francis-directed-inclusion-of-heterodox-statements-in-synod-final-relatio/

  13. In the Light of the Law – A Canon Lawyer’s Blog – Dr. Peters.
    on Baldisseri’s public statements.
    ” If pastoral progress is to be made, we have to pay closer attention to terms . . . ”
    https://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2015/01/30/if-pastoral-progress-is-to-be-made-we-have-to-pay-closer-attention-to-terms/

    – – – – – – – – –
    As others have said, those Clergy who sew confusion are doing Satan’s work.
    They do not have the authority to change Sacred Scripture, Dogma or Doctrine of the Faith.

    The job of the Magisterium –
    CCC: ” 86 Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant.
    It teaches only what has been handed on to it.
    At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully.
    All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith.”
    (Sacred Scripture)

    – – – – – – – –
    Any way you cut it, some high ranking clergy are heretics.

  14. John Feeney says:

    I don’t know who’s teachings Cardinal Kasper follows but it doesn’t sound like the teachings of our Lord and Redeemer Jesus Christ!

  15. Steve Phoenix says:

    Pope Francis, and his followers like Baldisseri, are setting up a conflict like the 1st Synod of Tyre (335 AD), also an evil synod, which endorsed the heretic Arius and rejected the 1st Nicene Counci. (which had affirmed Jesus as both divine and human).

    It is important to remember that Synods, indeed Councils, indeed popes, can be dead wrong, and the only true guide is Scripture and Tradition.

    • Yes, Steve Phoenix.
      Too many people do not know their Church history.

      Stick to Sacred Scripture, and the CCC which contains the Tradition – Doctrine of the Faith directly from the Magisterium.

      • Chris, sometimes we for get who is the Magisterium. It is the Pope and the Bishops. If they get together and decide on a new way of doing things, it is then the teachings of the Magisterium.

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          Utterly and absolutely false, Bob One. Councils at times and some popes throughout history have occasionally made massive blunders in their “magisterial” (according to your definition) pronouncements. 2nd Council of Ephesus, for example, the “Robber Council”; Pope Liberius condemned S. Athanasius and embraced Arianism; or, for example, P. Leo X authorized Tetzel to sell plenary indulgences, an official papal act, precipitating the Lutheran schism. I already cited the evil 1st Synod of Tyre: when bishops and even the pope get together, they can just as likely make sausage as churn out valid magisterial teaching—if it doesn’t comply with “what the Church has always taught and believed, everywhere” (S. Vincent of Lerins’ rule). You are proposing the “Church of Simon-Says”, not of Simon-Peter, who, the latter, though sometimes erring, submits to Christ’s teaching.

          Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:7). If so, a group of errant clerics can’t change Him, nor His teaching, to better suit their ever-fickle liking. Or, as S. John Chrysostom is to have said, beware, the roads of hell are well – paved with the skulls of bishops. Let us take care not to add our own skulls to make the curbing.

          • Anonymous says:

            Interesting spin.
            Pope Liberius did not condemn St. Athanasius or embrace Arianism. Protestant spin.
            The idea that indulgences were sold is a Protestant spin on the collection for St. Peters.
            First Synod of Tyre was not about magisterial teaching. A synod is not an ecumenical council. The Magisterium is all the bishops in union with the Pope.
            Can the Magisterium err? Not on matters of faith and morals.
            And you should research that quote too.
            Try harder. You speak as if you follow Jesus when you actually persecute Him.

          • Anonymous says:

            The 2nd Council of Ephesus is not one of the Catholic Church’s Ecumenical Councils. Neither is the 1st Synod of Tyre.
            Here is a list of the Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church:
            http://www.newadvent.org/library/almanac_14388a.htm

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            Inevitably , the Anonymous Novus Oregon/Novus Ordo quacking Ducks have landed with their emotional arguments and their self-anointed determination of “magisterial” orthodoxy. Everyone else is Protestant, or an enemy of Jesus, and quack-quack, “HER-a-tic”, quack-quack, “Sys-MAT-tic”, etc. quack quack quack. I do not directly respond to the quacking duck.

            For serious Catholic readers, see the Catholic Encyclopedia from which the information is derived. Liberius, at minimum, certainly signed an agreement regarding Arianism, and, though, under pressure, did for a time apostatize. The point is also that synods and councils CAN be dead wrong, ie Tyre and 2nd Ephesus—not dismissed by a contrived argument that they were somehow not “ecumenical”. The point is also that popes can err—ever heard of the “Council of Jerusalem?” (Acts. 15, Gal. 2). So, Leo X certainly by papal act authorized the selling of indulgences–read the Catholic Encyclopedia… so much for magisterial authority.

            The rule of St. Vincent of Lerins, namely “what the Church has always taught, everywhere,” is the ultimate measure of truth. Forget a gaggle of quacking ducks.

          • Anonymous says:

            Which Catholic Encyclopedia are you using?

          • Your characterization of Liberius’ actions are at odds with that of Pope Pius IX, and, of course, by the Church itself, Steve.

            If what the Church has always believed, everywhere, is contradicted by the magisterium, then the infallibility of the Church is disproved, along with its reason for existence.

          • serious Catholic reader says:

            Catholic Encyclopedia on Leo X does not say that he approved the selling of indulgences, certainly not by papal act.
            http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09162a.htm
            Catholic encyclopedia on Liberius does not say that he excommunicated Athanasius. It says that there were forged letters who claimed that Athanasius was excommunicated for not appearing before the Pope when ordered. It says that Liberius went into exile for not condemning him and staunchly defended him for two years and “it seems inconceivable” that he would after that condemn him. Historians are divided on the guilt of Liberius with Protestants favoring the version that he signed a document that could be construed as supporting Arianism.
            http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09217a.htm

          • Anonymous says:

            From the CCC:
            880 When Christ instituted the Twelve, “he constituted [them] in the form of a college or permanent assembly, at the head of which he placed Peter, chosen from among them.” Just as “by the Lord’s institution, St. Peter and the rest of the apostles constitute a single apostolic college, so in like fashion the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are related with and united to one another.”
            881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the “rock” of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. “The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head. “This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church’s very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.

          • Anonymous says:

            882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, “is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.” “For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”
            883 “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has “supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff.”
            884 “The college of bishops exercises power over the universal Church in a solemn manner in an ecumenical council.” But “there never is an ecumenical council which is not confirmed or at least recognized as such by Peter’s successor.”
            885 “This college, in so far as it is composed of many members, is the expression of the variety and universality of the People of God; and of the unity of the flock of Christ, in so far as it is assembled under one head.”

            886 “The individual bishops are the visible source and foundation of unity in their own particular Churches.”408 As such, they “exercise their pastoral office over the portion of the People of God assigned to them,”409 assisted by priests and deacons.

          • Anonymous says:

            888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task “to preach the Gospel of God to all men,” in keeping with the Lord’s command. They are “heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers” of the apostolic faith “endowed with the authority of Christ.”
            889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a “supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, “unfailingly adheres to this faith.”
            890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
            891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful – he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . .

          • We have had 12 evil Popes in the history of the Church.
            Francis might end up being the 13th by supporting adultery and homosexual acts.
            His don’t do it but if you do it is fine and Holy Communion is available to anyone who can get out of bed and get to Mass, – and we are one big hoopla family.

            No – We are not to follow evil leaders.
            We must instead follow our conscience – if well informed – per the CCC.

            Would anyone follow the Borgia Pope who was evil ?
            Would anyone follow the Benedict IX playboy Pope?

            Would anyone follow homosexual Weakland?
            Would anyone follow Bernardin or Mahony in aiding and abetting of sexual child abusers?
            These are just a few.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            “Novus Oregon/Novus Ordo quacking Ducks” you accuse others of emotional arguments? Are you sure about them? You are more intelligent than this, why use such words?

            Steve is right about his comments on February 5, 2015 at 11:34 am.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            “Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:7).” Yes and also Jesus said that “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.: Matthew 18:18

            He also said that he will be with us till the end, His church.

            “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18

          • Ann Malley says:

            Yes, Abeca, Steve Phoenix is intelligent which is why his appeal to discerning readers is well taken and understood perfectly.

            Thank you, Steve Phoenix. Having the Faith doesn’t mean denying reality or the problems within, but dealing with them and maintaining the Faith in Christ Jesus.

        • St. Christopher says:

          “Bob One”: Please read what “Steve Phoenix” has to say — he is completely correct.

          What you describe, “Bob One” is idolatry. We do not worship the Pope, and the “Order of Bishops” is a phrase made up after Vatican II. They can no more change the Faith than you can, “Bob One”.

          You make the Pope out to be Adolf Hitler, or Mao, or Stalin, or Kim Jong-Un. He is a priest, that is a servant to all other clergy and to all of the baptized. You are so New Church, “Bob One”. Try to read something about the Catechism and the history of the Church.

    • CCC: “81 Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.
      And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.
      It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.”

      Some of these high ranking clergy are indeed heretics.
      There job is to: ” …. faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.” Not to change it or cast it aside.
      Jesus was very clear in His words regarding Adultery with remarriage.

      I will follow Jesus AND the Magisterium – not Baldiserri, Forte, Kasper or even Francis.

    • This whole thing began with an error proposed by Steve Phoenix that Scripture and Tradition are the only sure guides. Chris corrected him by saying that both Scripture and Tradition (he used the CCC as an example of this) come from the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.
      he Magisterium of the Church
      From the CCC:
      85 “The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.”47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.
      86 “Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith.”
      87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.
      88 The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.

      • This whole thing started with Pope Francis giving his back door approval – via his appointment of Kasper and Danneels, and the Pope insisting that the 3 bad paragraphs remain in the ‘Lineanebta’ – for Sacrilege – so adulterers and active homosexuals can receive Holy Communion whenever they want.

        No repentance, and no amendment to sin no more will be necessary.
        So I guess what is ok for some will end up being ok for all – in the Catholic Church of Pope Francis.
        No repentance of mortal sin.
        No amendment non to sin again.
        Communion every time we feel like going to Mass. Since missing Mass won’t matter either.

        • Just because you are afraid that will happen does not mean that it will.
          Pray the Rosary and fast for the intention of preservation of the Faith.

  16. Steve Phoenix says:

    By the way, even Warren Carroll, the noted Catholic historian (who sometimes in my view stretches the extent of credulity in his dismissal of certain historical facts and circumstances) (such as Liberius lapsing into Arianism, for example), admits that Liberius did in fact “excommunicate” St. Athanasius. Quack-quack-quack, Anonymous Magisterial Ducks!

    • Its no surprise that Steve repeats the old slanders against Liberius, I’m only surprised that he isn’t breathlessly informing us about Pope Joan as well..

      Interested parties should consult the Catholic Encyclopedia or other reliable sources, and not rely on Steve’s telling, however. The short version is that Liberius fought the Arians for years, was then captured and held in captivity by them, during which time letters which may or may not have been forgeries were released by his captors. When he was released from captivity and restored to Rome, he fought the Arians again and their power was stemmed by that effort. From the Catholic encyclopedia –

      “It is admitted on all sides that his noble attitude of resistance before his exile and during his exile was not belied by any act of his after his return, that he was in no way sullied when so many failed at the Council of Rimini, and that he acted vigorously for the healing of orthodoxy throughout the West from the grievous wound.”

      • Ann Malley says:

        Ah,yes, the ‘old’ slanders. Read the ‘official’ (scrubbed clean) version of history. That’ll explain it all. Image is everything.

        • All we know about Liberius is what the Church has preserved, Ann. Its like that with Christ as well, and people attack those accounts just as you have here. If you don’t believe the Church, you can hardly defend it.

          • Ann Malley says:

            …there are other historical references to Christ, Steve, like those of Josephus. That is, in reality, what lends greater historical weight to the reality of Our Lord’s having lived, preached, and His being crucified.

            Knowing these things goes very far in defending the Church, Steve, for it draws out the personal interest that often taints matters in the eyes of those who would otherwise not believe. This assumption that showing Liberius to be less than what he should have been is only slander and/or being used to break up the Church is nonsense. It assumes bad will and takes a very elementary approach to rather complex subject matter.

            If anything, adult Catholics understanding that the Church, protected by God Almighty, has weathered bad leadership (or at the least, weak) in the past is proof that we can and will come out whole after any crisis. Denying that any crisis ever occurred or that it wasn’t ‘that’ bad is more of a placation than anything else and folks get exhausted from being placated, Steve, especially when they can see the disconnects occurring all around.

        • Anonymous says:

          The Catholic Encyclopedia is from way before Vatican II.

        • Anonymous says:

          Ann Malley, could you please tell us how many hours you have spent researching this subject and what your sources are?

  17. Steve Phoenix says:

    The Anonymous Quackers cannot admit some popes, as The Catholic Encyclopedia says about Leo X with regard to indulgences, “failed the Church”, as the CE circumspectly describes it. Leo X actually issued 4 bullae indulgentiorum, a papal act, blind and deaf Ducks, since only the Pope can authorize the Sacred Penitentiary to issue them (but you Novus Ordo people didn’t know that). The most serious, in 1516, the Leo X’s bull Sacrosanctis, an official papal act, allowed money in exchange for a spiritual grant. Pius V reformed this practice (but the Novus Ordo blind guides didn’t know that either):but the error was done by the pope, hence popes, synods, and councils err when they deviate from Scripture and Tradition. No, a group of fickle clerics cannot redefine The Faith. That is the point.

    Well enough work educating the blind and deaf NO ducks …they will never get it.

    • I’m not interested in your assessement of Leo X, your false description of Liberius is enough proof of your concern for the truth. You misrepresented him because HAD Liberius taught Arianism, that would be relevant to your anti-infallability argument. He didn’t, allowing the First Vatican Council to define the matter as an article of faith always taught by the Church and believed by the Faithful.

      Forget the Norvus Ordo snickering, Steve. You’re fighting Orthodoxy from well over 100 years before that..

    • Anonymous says:

      Granting indulgences is not selling indulgences.

    • Anonymous says:

      No pope has ever taught against faith and moral.
      The Catholic Church has never sold indulgences.
      There were abuses which the CE article on indulgences points out.
      The best known situation occured in Austria.
      The Pope did offer indulgences for contributions to the fund to build St. Peter’s.
      That is not selling indulgences. Poor people could gain the indulgence by prayer. (The Council of Trent did eventually prohibit monetary donations being indulgenced because the practice was misunderstood.)
      The Archbishop of Mainz placed a monetary figure on what the donation should be. That is what began Martin Luther’s rebellion. Although there is a whole lot more to the story.
      Even today, the Church grants indulgences. There are some special grants for the year of Consecrated Life.

    • Anonymous says:

      Correction. Mainz is in Germany, not Austria.

  18. ” Cardinal Baldisseri’s ‘Evolution of Dogma’
    vs St. Pius X’s Oath Against Modernism ”
    by Edward Pentin
    http://edwardpentin.co.uk/cardinal-baldisseris-evolution-of-dogma-vs-st-pius-xs-oath-against-modernism/

    This proves that Baldiserri is a HERTIC !
    Dogma can not change.

    • Anonymous says:

      Dogma cannot change. The understanding of things improves. (I do not know why he said that because no one is even discussing changing dogma.)
      The whole history of the Church is the improvement of understanding of dogma and doctrine. Of the Lord’s revelation to Man.
      Remember, the Bible did not exist at the beginning of the Church. The process began in the 4th century but there was disagreement on some of the books until the 1500s.
      The Church had to define it’s dogmas. The Church had to say definitively what was the Truth.
      They had to make decisions on discipline. The first anti-pope was someone who did not agree with the Pope that those who had renounced Christianity under the Roman persecution could repent and be forgiven and readmitted to the Church. (He reconciled and is now a saint.)
      Heresy is all around us.. Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies. And you can find modernist errors and other heresies today. I wish they would bring back the oath. The oath says that dogma cannot evolve and CHANGE in meaning from the one the Church previously held. The examples that Cardinal Baldiserri gave were not of an evolution of dogma, but of discipline.

    • Anonymous says:

      Those who are worrying about that statement on the evolution of dogma may have some legitimate concerns but Cardinal Burke has pointed out that the insidious error is that “we are not changing dogma just discipline.” He rightly points out that discipline should reflect dogma and doctrine. Catholics don’t know the faith very well. I know of a pre-Vatican II Catholic who insisted that her daughter could date a married man because “he could have had an annulment if he was Catholic.” I don’t want to say that people are stupid just that once people hear or think of an answer to a problem that lets them do what they want, they stop asking questions. I think the mere discussion of admitting divorced and remarried people to communion has been harmful to the Faith and the Church and the Catholic laity. Most people don’t know about the internal forum solution that is applied to some divorced and remarried people. It is supposed to be used in a very limited and secretive way. This may be an attempt to get those people “out of the shadows.” Another poster said that it is putting man before God and I would agree that is a real possibility.

    • This is very important for everyone to read. Thanks for the post and link.

      Pope Francis appointed this heretic Baldiserri as the Secretary General of the Synod of Bishops.
      Now everyone can know for certain what we are up against.
      A clergy who believes that DOGMA can change with the wind.

  19. Steve Phoenix, in apparent seriousness, asks if “anyone” would follow “the Borgia Pope”. Yes, Steve, many people did. Some who followed him as young men were even at the Council of Trent as old men.

    Perhaps I am unfair to you. I have assumed you claim to be Catholic.

    • Brian S. where did you get your infoon who followed the Borgia Pope and/or the Playboy Pope? Please provide a link to an official Church document.

      However, we can all be certain that when there are heretical and evil Popes some will follow their words and examples like sheeps to the slaughter – why because Jesus told us so.

  20. Steve Phoenix says:

    So. The NO ducks and their acolytes are quacking in unison: But they always do so when afraid, in this case, of the truth. It is Cardinal Newman, in his book on the Arian heresy who concludes Liberius lapsed into error (I guess Newman was “false”, too). It is Warren Carroll, the great NO historian (and he is good), who admits Liberius excommunicated S. Athanasius. It is a matter of objective fact that Leo X issued 4 bulls, the highest papal act possible of the time, allowing the sale of indulgences to raise money. The CE says frankly Leo X “failed” the Church.

    None of the brave “defenders of the Magical Magisterium” knew before this discussion anything about Liberius’ apostasy, nor the evil Synod of Tyre, nor the 2nd Coun. Ephesus, the “Robber Council”: the facts are so terrifying to them they must quack “PRO-testant!” “HER-etic!” “Schis-MAT-ic!”, lest they discover that our errant bishops and pontiff serve Scripture and Tradition (Dei Verbum, Vat II), “not by disclosing new doctrine” (Vatican I), but the reverse. Synods, councils and pontiffs have erred throughout our history. Own it : find out the truth; don’t add your skull to the many clerical ones paving hell.

  21. Steve Phoenix says:

    By the way, “Steve” is not “Steve Phoenix”, for those interested. But it looks like now he (“Steve”) is going to get mauled by the Terrible Quackers, too. Oh my, he must be quaking too.

  22. Steve Phoenix says:

    [“Steve” made the comment about the Borgia pontiffs, which duped a superficial reader with an ax to grind against Phoenix..]

  23. Steve Phoenix says:

    By the way, the claim spouted above that the Magisterium is superior to the Sacred Deposit of Faith, a notion advanced by a confused NO Duck above, is a gross error: Scripture and Tradition are objective and “supreme” realities, and the Magisterium is below them entirely in rank. Must be getting their facts from the LA Religious Ed Conference.

  24. Funny that you brought up Cardinal Newman, Steve P., I was going to do that myself, for on infallibility, he could not have been more clear:

    “I believe the whole revealed dogma as taught by the Apostles, as committed by the Apostles to the Church, and as declared by the Church to me. I receive it, as it is infallibly interpreted by the authority to whom it is thus committed, and as it shall be, in like manner, further interpreted by that same authority till the end of time.”

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