Steubenville not a theocracy

Logo in question

The following is an excerpt of a July 26 story from the Catholic News Agency.

In response to a threatened lawsuit from an atheist group, the Steubenville, Ohio city council says it will remove from its new city logo an image of the Franciscan University of Steubenville’s chapel.

The action drew criticism from Franciscan University’s vice president of advancement Michael Hernon.

“We find it particularly troubling that an out-of-town and out-of-touch group targeted the University for removal from the logo solely because of our religious identity,” Hernon said July 25 on behalf of the university.

“For more than 65 years, Franciscan University of Steubenville has proudly served as an integral part of this community and we were honored to have our chapel included in the new city of Steubenville logo.”

The city’s present logo, unveiled in December 2011, displays in silhouette the downtown cityscape and various landmarks of the city including Historic Fort Steuben, the Veterans Memorial Bridge and Franciscan University’s Christ the King Chapel.

The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation had threatened legal action over the logo’s inclusion of the chapel and the cross.

Annie Laurie Gaylor told the Steubenville Herald-Star that the logo is a symbol “that Steubenville is a theocracy and is a Christian city where non-Christians or non-believers are not favored citizens.”

She said a Steubenville citizen had contacted her organization to complain about the logo, which Gaylor said violates the U.S. Constitution because it includes the chapel.

“While we understand that Franciscan University is a part of the city, the city may not depict the university chapel and cross because to do so places the city’s imprimatur behind Christianity,” she said.

On July 24 city officials decided to change the logo, citing concerns that a legal fight would be very expensive for the city….

To read entire story, click here.

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Comments

  1. Maryanne Leonard says:

    Maybe it’s time to move to an area in which the locals are not afraid to honor the only organization that ever brought national attention to their community. I wonder how Steubenville would like to become the former home of Franciscan University?

    • Catherine says:

      Maryanne Leonard,

      Very well stated. The singer Dean Martin was born Dino Paul Crocetti on June 7, 1917 in Steubenville, Ohio. Some of his greatest hit songs were “That’s Amore”.” and “You’re Nobody Till somebody Loves You.” and “An Evening in Roma”

      I also noticed in the article’s comment section that a poster named Mick, brought up an excellent question, “Will the Steubenville city council officials also remove the Freemason’s logo of the square and the compass that is clearly seen in the new city logo? Now fair is fair. If they remove the chapel and cross, then they have to remove the Masonic logo too.

      These city council members have lost their Steubenville backbones of steel and they seem to be rewriting Dean Martin’s songs. The new wimpy titles are, “No more Amore for that Chapel from Roma” and “You’re Somebody Until a Nobody Threatens to Sue You.” Sorry Dino! Forgive them, for they are weak and they know not what they do. Please city council members of Steubenville, stand up for something or you will fall for anything and end up standing for nothing worthwhile. You made a giant mistake by caving into the demands of Godless bullies who just happen to be very good buddies with the devil. Now for your lack of courage you have to also remove that Masonic logo symbol and go back to the drawing board.

      I propose that the new Steubenville logo should depict a swarm of spineless jellyfish with the faces of each city council member on each spineless creature. Jellyfish are not only known for being spineless, they are also known for not having brains and a heart. They just float around absorbing oxygen through diffusion.

      • I wish you would send this post to the newspaper in Steubenville!
        They really need to hear these criticisms! That’s is correct about Dean Martin, and not far away is the little town of Cadiz where Clark Gable was born and raised. Paul Newman is a good ole Ohio boy too…we seem to produce handsome men on occasion. Getting back to the jellyfish…I suppose Steubenville (home of Steubenville glass) must have a bit of an inferiority complex and is easily wounded by criticism. It’s unfortunate that they don’t know who their friends are and who are their enemies. Franciscan Univ. is the best thing to happen to them in a long while and they should have been loyal defenders of its inclusion of the symbol of the school, as the school has been to them. It’s in a lovely area on the Ohio River, but poverty and despair have taken their toll. That is a really good point too about the masonic symbol! The name of the paper is the Steubenville Herald-Star. It would be great if some of you would write them an email or letter to the editor. (especially if they know you’re from another state and that their giving in to the atheists is pretty pathetic)

  2. Maryanne, what would you attitude be if the only religious symbol your city displayed in a logo was a menorah, or a jewish star, or a statue of budda, or maybe an islamic symbol? Would you like it if your city decided to include a scientology symbol in its logo?

    • Jon, if those organizations had helped Steubenville even half as much as Franciscan Univ. has then I doubt anyone would mind using one of their symbols. Steubenville was and is a dying town, but the university helps with the schools, brings in much outside money from myriad visitors throughout the years and in countless ways that are done in secret. There is a college or university in almost every town in Ohio, one in every twenty-five miles, and all of them were built on the basis of a Christian denomination, including Oberlin and Antioch colleges, two of the most radical secular schools in the country now. Jon, you’re voicing the same tired cliches of ALL secular humanists and it’s so inappropriate when you’re posing as a Catholic. Do you think you’re the voice of reason? If so, your arguments are ineffectual and redundant. I don’t mean to stifle free speech, but when someone continually and continuously espouses the socialist patter they’ve been indoctrinated with, that is not free speech but political harassment.

    • Hmmmmm…. Good point, John, . It’s inconceivable that a city’s religious identity and herittage should be prominently displayed or acknowldeged in any way at all. I think we should insist that Santa Cruz, Sacramento and San Francisco should be renamed menorah city, Hubbardtown, and islamville.

      John — we understand very well your intention to drive religion from our comnunity and we won’t stand for it…

      • Canisius says:

        Well said Keith, well said I wonder where Johnny boy stands on the Creche displays on public land in December something tells me he will stand with the ACLU and the ADL rather than Christ

        • Canisius, I have no problem at all with Creche displays under the following conditions: 1) they are paid for with private, not public money, including maintenance costs, and 2) all religions have reasonable opportunity to access the public land for display, not just Christians or any other group that might be “favored”.

      • Keith, if private citizens wish to make such expressions, they are free to make as many as they wish (presuming they pay for it themselves, and presuming they aren’t attempting to block other religious expression. What I object to is using public money to perform brand identity marketing for ANY religion.

    • Tim Scheidler says:

      Speaking as someone Roman Catholic who DID grow up (for 7 years) in a JEWISH town, it wouldn’t (and didn’t ) bother me at all. Schma Israel Adonoi Eluhenu, Adonoi Echod!!

    • These people have no business telling the citizens of another city what they want on there logo. They need to keep their long noses out of other people”s business. Yes, take off the Masonic logo, too, while they are at it. I find it offensive. Maybe we should sue.

      • A clariification: the term “long noses” is a slang expression for people who are nosey and butt into other people’s business. It has nothing to do with the actual size or shape of any one’s nose. I thought I would clarify that, so no one misinterprets what I said, and I am not accused of using derogatory words for any ethnic group.

    • Jon J, don’t be silly. There are many city logos that have pagan or Masonic symbols or symbols of other religions on them. In this case the chapel is not the only “religious” symbol. The Masons claim they are not a religion, but there are many Catholics and even Protestants who would disagree. Many sticter Protestant denominations do not allow or discourage their parishioners from joining the Masons because they say it is an organization that conflicts with their relgious teachings. Whether they are right or wrong, that is what they believe. I would have no objection to a Jewish synogogue being on a logo if it is one of the few historical landmarks in that area. It would, of course, be best to include one or two others non Jewish symbols also on the logo.

      • By the way, I really do not object to the Masonic symbol as long as they leave on the symbol for the chapel. Fair is fair. The atheists always go after the Christian symbols and none of the others. If the majority of the people in a particular town are Jewish I have no problem with a synogoue being included among the other symbols. Also, please excuse all the typos in my previous post. This suing over such silly things is just so stupid. Some people like to be hated and just want to do all they can to keep people at each others throats and unhappy.

  3. Robert Bushlow says:

    This should be final evidence that their goal is to wipe out every vestige of Christianity from the public square. Our First right the Right of Religious Freedom is in great peril. Many people don’t yet realize that we are just in the beginning stages of a battle against complete suppression of Christianity in this country. We need to seriously stand up for Religious Freedom!

  4. Maybe the atheists should sue in the Hague to have the Vatican blotted out from Google Earth map. They could even have all map makers blot out every church … no, make it every Catholic Church and structure on all maps. In fact maybe they ought to, with their dynamic high tech techneeks, blot out every man, woman and child of Catholic faith … so that when you look at, say Google Earth, what you see is a lot of little blots moving around. The irony is that God’s map would show these but not those atheists; however, unironically on God’s map the atheists would not be blots … they simply would not exist.

    • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

      JLS,

      No! They would be “like cinders floating in the air”! Sr. Lucy of Fatima

      God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
      Kenneth M. Fisher

      • Kenneth, could you elaborate a bit, as I have not read that work? What was Sr. Lucy conveying in that phrase?

  5. such a stupid lawsuit.

    next they will move to change the name of san francisco to “frank’s joint” so it doesn’t reflect the history of california, evanglized by the missionaries from spain and mexico.

    and what about st. louis?

    or maryland? it was, afterr all, “a haven for Catholics in the new world.”

    • Laurette Elsberry says:

      Of the five most populous cities in California four have Catholic “roots”. Following Max’s idea that the names will have to be changed, we might wind up with nearly 7 million Californians living in the cities of Angels (no, that would have to go entirely), James, Joseph and Frank……How pitiful these libs are. What (useful) idiots.

  6. This is so sad. The reality is, Franciscan University is the city of Steubenville. Most of the revenue that is generated in that city is because of Franciscan University faculty, staff and students. It is sad that the city is being so spineless in this matter to defend the rights one of the hallmarks of the city. God Love You.

  7. It the Chapel is part of the landscape, and important to the economics of the area, then elected officials should not be cowards.

    • Kenneth M. Fisher says:

      There is no coward like an unelected coward!

      God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
      Kenneth M. Fisher

  8. Patrick says:

    The church will be removed, not because of the complaint of some unknown atheist, from out of town, but because the City Council desired that this be done. Hold them accountable, thrown them out of office. The unknown atheist is merely a red herring.

  9. Since Stubenville is in OHIO, Wisconson residents have ZERO STANDING in Court.

  10. Maryanne Leonard says:

    JonJ, your comment is not related to mine, and therefore I shall not engage in discourse with you on the subject I raised. I will say that your comment reflects an attitude of self-deemed superiority on your part, and with that incorrect conclusion, I must quietly choose to disagree.

  11. The official Seal of the District of Columbia has an image of the Congress on it and we all know there no greater collection of idiots and ego-maniacs than that – they should take that off, too.

  12. What kind of a city council should even have to answer to such a ridiculous demand. Or…………is there a rat in the haystack that invited such harassment. After all, what amounts to a city council in Washington D. C. has authority to approve and establish gay marriage as if they were the Supreme Court. City Councils are for the running of cities.

    • “rat in haystack” brings back fond memories. Moved a hay bale once and suddenly mice were scampering in every which direction. Not sure, but I might have been doing the jump style shuffle on them. Could I have been that cruel back in my pagan days?

  13. I just happened to think…it says’ Steubenville where you always have a home’ Well, apparently God does not have a home there. Remove the cross of Jesus and what does that say about Steubenville? No wonder they’re having financial woes.

  14. By the way, there is a Star of David on the Great Seal of the United States and on the back of the one dollar bill. Should we take those off bcause the United States is not a “Jewish theocracy”. You see how really stupid this all is? Pretty soon we will have no symbols left that we can use just because some atheist or other disgruntled person wants to sue. Let the majority decide what they want on their city’s symbols.

  15. Oh please, Maryanne, get off your high horse. You don’t like my question for one simple reason: you know as well as I do that the only reason you like the cross in the logo is because you think christianity is good, more people should be christians, and anything that promotes christianity is a good idea. Further, since you are a christian, you like the validation of being one of the “good” people and the inference that christians are “favored” citizens who have done more for stuebanville than any other group. My question has everything to do with your point, because it undercuts your premise: that because the university has “done so much for stuebanville” its only right that stuebanville return the favor by using public money to promote the university. And, if the city won’t “play ball”, you recommend the university leave (as if only the city benefits from the university’s presence). Of course, you don’t really think this, it’s only your justification to support christian cheerleading as the following hypothetical will show. Let’s suppose the University takes your petulant advice and goes to some christian town willing to acceede to the University’s every whim. Now, the Church of the Divine Orgasm decides to make stuebanville its world headquarters, builds a temple, and communes with the divine by engaging in sex during sunday service. The city council, recognizing the error of its ways, uses public money to design a new city logo with a Coitus symbol promenantly displayed. Are you really going to say, “well, the Church of the Divine O is the only entity that brings international attention and money to Stuebanville, it’s only right that I am represented by a coitus symbol.” Nonsense, you will be on the street objecting to the “disgusting” heathan symbol that is an “embarrassment” to Stuebanville. You will be screaming about how the city seized your tax dollars for an immoral display, and you will use any legal means at your disposal to stop that logo from being plastered across your city. The only reason this whole thing upsets you so is you don’t think anyone has the right to react that way to christians—who, after all, are morally superior to every other religious group.

    • Anne T. says:

      Jon J, if you do not think your religion is the right one, then you are in the wrong religion. All devout Jews, Chrisitans and Muslims, and most others are in their particular religions because they believe they are right, otherwise they would not be in them if they were honest with themselves. That is a common human trait. If they have doubts, they convert to another one.The very idea that all religions are the same is a false one since none of them teach the same thing, and truth cannot contradict itself. If God is Truth, and he is, he cannot be teaching contradictory things. I believe the Catholic Church is the right one, but that does not mean I will take away a Baptist’s right not to drink alcoholic beverages or a Muslims right not to eat pork, and so forth, or force them to say the Rosary. Jon J. it is very clear that you are not Catholic, and that you just come on this website to irritate those who are.

      • Anne T. says:

        And Jon J. as far as the scientology symbols, who really cares. There are plenty of symbols on various city logos that we ALL, I repeat we ALL, disagree with, but most of us are not so sue happy, that we have to waste our time and money and that of others. over such trivial things. One Christian Attorney General refused to be photographed in front of a statue which he considered pagan. That was his right, It was easy to take his picture someplace else.

        • Anonymous says:

          Anne, you won’t care (and for the most part I agree with you) until you lose the legal case I mentioned in my hypo. Then you very much won’t like it. And, to rise to an objectionable level, you probably do need a “critical mass” of cultural pressure. But, litigation takes two to tango. If the matter is trivial, why fight over it? If the city doesn’t fight it, the litigation cost to the city (and hence the public) is going to be negligible and mostly fall on the party silly enough to file suit. I suppose they will have to redesign the logo, but I really wonder how much removing the cross is going to cost. Why is it important to use tax dollars (probably fractional pennies per person) to perform what is effectively christian brand marketing? I presume the atheists are bringing suit because they feel like society in general is telling them, in countless subtle, ways they should belong to a religion (since 80 percent of us are christian, that message normally is “you should be a christian”) and they’re tired of it. Since this logo produced by the city is a form of pressure they have a legal pretext to contest (I presume most of the social pressure they get is not actionable), they pursue it. If you want to fight about it, then I can only conclude that it is important in some way to use tax dollars to communicate to people they should be christian.

          • If the bishops had been giving money to Caesar instead of taking it, then no doubt the logo would stay. But employees of the government … such as the bishops … really do not have much influence on the government. Of course if they were holy bishops as the Pope has requested them to become, then it would be a different story. And also they would be paying the govt and not being paid by the govt.

          • Nonsense, Anonymours.

          • Actually, Anonomous, I should not have posted my “nonsense” replay as I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. I take it back.

  16. Lets go after this another way. For those of you who complain that religious expression is suppressed, what would you think if the City of Clearwater started using L Ron Hubbard’s giant icon to communicate with space aliens as the most significant part of the city logo and the city’s seal. As many here know, Scientology is very prominent in Clearwater, owning enormous parts of the city as well has having extensive religious facilities in the area. Let us now suppose you have taken a job in clearwater because you have fallen on hard times in your career, you now have a bad resume and the only person who will give you a chance is an old friend working for a company in Clearwater. However, the company owner is a devout Scientologist and soon invites you to attend a Scientology event. You politely decline. The next day you are fired. You (very justifiably) file a wrongful dismissal suit based upon religious discrimination. And, when you get to the local courthouse to try your case, you see a statue of L. Ron Hubbard outside, and in a frieze where many courthouses display the greek symbol of the scales of justice, instead you see a graven image of an E-meter. Before the court is called to order, you see the judge, the defense attorney and jury foreman all “self-auditing” themselves using personal E-meters in order to clear their minds, sort of like christians will pray. Your case is tried very quickly, and the jury comes back after less than 10 minutes of consideration, absolving the company owner of any wrongdoing. Are you going to tell me that you won’t object to this decision in the least? Will the display of all the Scientology symbols in the courtroom and across the city using your tax dollars still gain your approval? Will you think their expressions of religious devotion are all wonderful displays about the cultural heritage of the city of clearwater? Will you be happy to provide more tax dollars to display even more scientology symbols?

    • Jon, if you do not believe Jesus is the truth, and that this country was founded on a Judeo-Christian belief system then you are as far out as obama. Talk about specious reasoning! You think it’s the same thing to have ron hubbard as to have Jesus Christ? No one is without some religion or system of living as long as he is sane and a human being. To say this country is founded on separation of church and state is a lie and an impossibility. Faith and religion were to be PROTECTED from the state not vice versa. Such a satanic twist was incomprehensible to the founding fathers. There has never been a nation in the history of the world that didn’t have a deep spiritual basis, whether the gods lived on Olympus or peppered the country in the bodies of cats and dogs. Only a mentally and morally deviant age such as ours could someone actually believe they could have a form of government based on believing in NOTHING! As GKChesterton wrote, if a man believes in nothing he’ll believe in anything. We are pre-programmed by God to seek Him and if we look elsewhere, we’re still looking for Him. I don’t know why I’m bothering writing to you. You’re really out there, old fellow.

    • Jon J, the city of Salem, Mass., has a witch on its logo, and it was put there by the large wiccan population. I am sure some Christians complained, but as far as I know, no one has sued the city. If people do not like the atmosphere there can move elsewhere. How about Stuebenville? If they leave us alone, we leave them alone.

      • A correction: “THEY can move”. And all this does is make some lawyers rich and the rest of us poorer, including the ones who sued It is really, really stupid..

    • JonJ in this post and others builds an elaborate yet meaningless (albeit entertaining) strawman arguement.

      When all he really needs to do is to check statistics.
      According the Pew Research 78.4% US adulats consider themselves Christian. The next highest percentage of reported religious identify as Jewish at 1.7% and 0.8% Hindu. Of course, there are 1.6% atheist..

      Face it JonJ. Your statements and position is made ridiculous by the fact that this country is overwhelmingly Christian and those symbols are wlecomed by them.

      http://religions.pewforum.org/reports/#

  17. God not only gave a Promise to Isaac, but He gave Promise to Ishmael; why is not symbol reflecting this on the money also, or is there?

  18. Steubenville students should minimize their patronage of businesses in that city, and buy everything on line.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      JLS that sounds like a great idea, after all you can even find better deal on line too. Some with even free shipping. : )

  19. Jon J, do you know that tere are some imans in other countries who are discouraging their people from eating tomatoes because they are “Christian”? Why? because when a tomato is cut a certain way it forms a cross in the middle. Cut it in half horizonally, and you will have a cross. The huge majority of Christians laugh at such things. I have had some crescent earrings in the past, but it does not mean I am Muslim. Most of us are not so uptight by such things.

    • and i’ve always been a BIG fan of crescent rolls, without thinking twice!

      (however, rumor has it they were invented when the polish king JAN SOBIESKI helped defeat the turks who were besieging vienna and who wanted to plant the crescent on top of saint stephen’s catehdral. in honor of the cahtolic victory, they say, the people of vienna invented the cresecrent roll which is still enjoyed today)

      • Anne T. says:

        That is one more reason for Christians to eat them, Max, and I love crescent rolls too, especially the terribly buttery ones. If we avoided everything someone uses as a symbol for their religion, we would have nothing left. Let’s hear it for crescent rolls. Yum! Yum!

  20. Anne T, I actually agree with you that this is something of a trivial matter. However, that recognition should cut both ways. In that, if the matter is trivial, then why are you so concerned if someone is upset? Why is it so important that Crosses are displayed in city logos? The only time I have ever been truly annoyed and upset by religious expression in my personal life was when I was an undergraduate and some fundamentalist morons (non-catholics) decided to scream at us through a loudspeaker about how we were sinners and needed to come to Jesus. On that particular day, I had just finished a difficult exam and had some serious sleep deprivation. I wanted to conk out, but those obnoxious Christians were close to my residence hall. I wanted to shove some loudspeakers down some throats. The university president decided the student body needed to “learn tolerance” for different religious views and did nothing. Consequently, I learned there are very inappropriate ways to express “the truth”.

    • Anne T. says:

      Jon J, as far as what happened to you at the university, I agree that that group of fundamentalist should have been more respectful of the rights of others to sleep. And an “in your face” confrontation labeling everyone a serious sinner in not really appropriate. I am upset, though, because they always go after the Christian symbols and none of the others, with the excuse that we are the majority, which takes away Christian rights and allows others to have their logos. That is just not fair. Most of the men who fought in World War II belonged to some type of Christian denomination, and fought and died hard, even for the rights of Jews, yet many scream and holler that it is inappropriate to have a cross at a public site for veterans or allow us to have Christians services there, and when we are not forcing anyone to participate. Why did our men fight for that? The fact is they did not. If the others hate the cross so much let them fight the wars.Let them be mutaliated. Let them do all the dying. Let their women be the widows, and their children be orphaned. They (men and women who have never even been in the military for the most part) always suck us into someone else’s war.. Let the other countries solve their own problems. Let them kill each other. Who gives a damn any more. They sucked our men and women into the Viet Nam War then turned on them the minute they were winning. I am tired of it Jon J. At 69, I am tired of it!

      • Anne T, the first thing I want to say is I am totally convinced you mean well and are not aiming to harm anyone. And, I very much take your point to heart that its the Christian majority that seems to get targeted in these kinds of cases. Of course, part of it is likely ignorance of minority religious symbols on part of the christian majority. In no way did I connect police stars with wiccan symbols. I also have no knowledge with regard to masonic symbols. Minorities almost always know much more about the symbolism and beliefs of the majority than the reverse. There is a lot of unfortunate math that surround these kinds of issues. I know about this because I spent the majority of my childhood as a marginalized minority (half asian, raised by parents who both grew up in poverty in an affluent, mostly white neighborhood). One of my earliest lessons in real world religion came at the hands of my Catholic school classmates who treated me with contempt and ridicule. This hypocrisy, in a place the administrators constantly reminded us was morally superior to a corrupt outside world, was a lesson I have never forgotten. Of course, my experience was entirely the opposite. It was the outside world where I was treated with respect, and my catholic school and church were I was treated with contempt. Much of this treatment came about because I was the smallest kid in the class, physically uncoordinated, and looked spectacularly geeky due to severe buck teeth and thick glasses (due to a degenerative eye condition). Part of it was due to my hyper-competitive ego being unable to accept that I was going to be at the bottom of the pecking order. Consequently, I am very sensitive to the plight of the socially marginalized and very aware that profession of religious faith is almost irrelevant to actual behavior. Now, that history made me understand that if you’re a marginalized minority, it only takes a small percentage of jerks among a majority to fill your life with misery. That unfortunate math makes those jerks SEEM like the prevailing norm, because they are the ones that go out of their way to kick you. All of this can really distort your perception of the social landscape. So minorities can frequently “strike back” in a disproportionate manner.

        • Jon J, everyone is a minority to a certain point. I am a caucasian who has always been surrounded by people of Asian, Mexican and African background for the most part.. In high school I was the one white face sticking out of Africa because of my surname. We are all marginalized at times. I survived it. So can you.

          • I was referring to the pictures in my high school yearbook when I said Africa.

          • Oh, that was long ago and far away. The weird thing is you can’t tell I’m half-asain by lookind at me.

        • I did not mean to be so hard on you, Jon J., in my last post, but so many people who consider themselves a “minority” never realize that many of the supposed “majority” have often been marginalized too. Europe was invaded by Asians and Moorish Arabic and Africans in the past, too, and that is deep in our memory whether we like it or not. Many of us even probably have Asian blood from those confrontations. Southern European Christians, including the Spanish, were taken into slavery by the Muslims Arabs and Muslims Moors (Africans). That is rarely brought up when slavery is mentioned over here. Many a European Christian boy was forced to fight his own Christian people when taken into captivity aboard Muslim ships. When it comes right down to it, Jon, Caucasians ARE the minority in the world. Maybe that is why we are so belligerent at times, and we are quite often blamed for everything pertaining to slavery even though we fought a civil war in this country to end slavery. Nevertheless, I have defended Asians, too. I think what this government did to President Diem was despicable, but of course, he was a Catholic and many Buddhist hated him merely because he came to power. He, too, had been persecuted in Vietnam just for being Catholic. I do not know your religion or lack of religion, but as I have said before, “We all have our baggage.” Now I need to get off of here and go to bed. Perhaps I have said way too much, but what is is.

      • I was using hyperbole, an exaggeration, here. In other words no one likes to go fight for those who are so ungrateful that they do not even allow one to honor one’s dead in the manner one wishes. No one stops Jewish, Buddhist or any other religions from having servces for their dead on public property nor have their symbols on their graves as far as I know. Naturally the symbols of those who had more in battle will be larger in some areas, especailly because of the historical past. Am I missing something here?

        • But then Christianity has ALWAYS been about dying for the ungrateful — like the Master, like the servant. He did say we would be treated as He was.

    • Anne T. says:

      Jon J, as far as what happened to you at the university, the fundamentalists should have been more respectiful of those who needed their sleep. Also, an “in your face confrontation” where everyone is called a serious sinner when they do not even know the people is not appropriate in public. People of faith do have to use their common sense. Nevertheless, the whole point is why shouldn’t crosses be on logos in largely Christian areas historically? Every other religious logos is allowed in their areas. Why are the Chrisitian ones the ones being complained about and taken down. You mentioned taxes, if we are the majority we pay more taxes, so we should have more logos. We have also done most of the fighting in most of the wars, so why don’t we have the right to put crosses on public lands where more of our own are buried and have services as long as we do not force others to participate? The police cars in many areas have a five-pointed star on them paid for by the public. Should Christians complain that that is a witches’s (Wiccan) star, and it is although many people do not even know that. As I said before, the Star of David is even on the Great Seal of the United States. How many Chrisians do you know who have sued to have it taken off? Not many if any. I could go on and on with this, but all we want is our fair share, and we have a right to ask for it and to get it.

  21. Dana, you have just proved my point about Maryanne’s post. I contended that she didn’t really believe that the University gained any “logo rights” due to the fame and money it pumped into the community. That was a simple justification for an act that emotionally appealed to her—using tax dollars to promote Christianity. The fact that you think a value judgment about the worth of Scientology vs. Christianity refute’s my point shows that you, at least tacitly, understand its all about the social value you attach to Christianity and has nothing to do with the “objective” merit of what the University does for Stuebanville. And, btw, the point of my “Scientology” post was not to equate Christianity with Scientology but to show (using a faith you would mostly likely see as completely discredited) how the sort of religious expression in public buildings many here espouse would completely undermine your belief in the validity of the justice system if you don’t happen to hold the views promoted by the popular majority. That could lead to disaffected groups taking the justice system into their own hands (such as hacking the company’s computer databases) in order to achieve “justice”. Human beings being what they are, even if the findings against them were completely for legitimate reasons, most will convince themselves they were wronged because of systemic bias against their views. That’s why we need to keep such things as religious views below a certain “critical mass” so that it doesn’t unnecessarily undermine belief in the validity of the system.

    • Jon J, I think you are wrong about Maryanne, if the Wiccans of Salem, Mass., have the right to their symbol on the city so does Steubenville Chapel. If one is taken off so should the other one should be taken off. We all know Hilary Clinton and Presdent Obama are trying to please too many religions. Freedom of religion can only go so far before it becomes ridiculous. You cannot have laws based on the Ten Commandments mostly, laws based on Sharia Law and religions that practice human sacrifice all at the same time. It just cannot work and everyone knows that, and as far as many are concerned most abortions are forms of human sacrifice.

  22. Dana, the Amendment to the Constitution of the United States that allows for religious freedom was included to specifically prevent the government (federal or state) from instituting a state religion. Remember that much of the U.S. was populated by people (in the early days) who were fleeing religious persercution in England.

    • Having a picture of a chapel among the other symbols is no more instituting a state religion than having a witches symbol on a city that has a lot of Wiccans, or the Star of David on the Great Seal of the United States as long as there are other symbols included, and no one is forced to belong to that religion. If one goes so should the others. You see the “can of worms” that has been opened here, and indeed it has? Many of our towns have names of pagan god and goddesses, Christian saints, American heroes and so forth. It is impossible to pick names and symbols that are not offensive to someone.

  23. Perhaps the Steubenvile symbol should be made smaller, but there is no reason it should not be included along with other symbols if it contributes a great deal to the town.

  24. I would like to add that as a Christian I would not vote for some symbols, such as a witch, but that is completely different from suing.

  25. Stephen B says:

    I’d like to take a different tack in this discussion.
    1] The choice of symbols included in public logos, etc. should reflect the history or influences that have shaped the entity displaying the logo. Those symbols may refer to an existing entity or something that has passed into history and no longer exists.
    2] One has a right to be offended by a public display of symbols, but not a remedy at law to change or suppress it–in most circumstances. For example, I am a Christian and I see or encounter many non-Christian houses of worship in my travels. If I am offended by their presence, I must learn to live with it as that group has full right to erect their house of worship or assembly–as does my group [assuming compliance with appropriate zoning, etc.]. The appearance of a certain symbol should not depend on its adherents being a ‘majority’ population. As well, a majority should not be allowed to suppress a symbol purely as an act of being a majority.

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