Six California hospitals to cease being Catholic

BlueMountain will recapitalize the hospital chain
 (LA Times photo)

(LA Times photo)

The following comes from a July 30 National Catholic Reporter article by Monica Clark:

The struggling Daughters of Charity Health System, which owns six hospitals in California, has accepted a proposal by BlueMountain Capital Management to provide over $250 million to “recapitalize” the hospital chain. In doing so, Daughters of Charity will transfer control of the hospitals to an independent board of directors and to Integrity Healthcare, which BlueMountain has formed to manage and operate the facilities.

Once the transaction is approved by California’s attorney general, the religious order will no longer be associated with the hospitals and the hospitals will cease to have any religious affiliation, said Elizabeth Nikels, Daughters of Charity Health System vice president of marketing and communications. The hospitals will remain open as non-profit hospitals. The current Daughters of Charity Health System board of directors will appoint the new five-member board.  BlueMountain will have one representative.

In three years, BlueMountain has the option to purchase the system. If BlueMountain declines to do so, the hospitals will continue to operate as a non-profit system under its board of directors, Nikels said.
For more than a year, Daughters of Charity had been trying to sell the system which was on the verge of bankruptcy. An offer by Prime Healthcare Services to purchase the system for $843 million was withdrawn in March after Attorney General Kamala Harris imposed a requirement that Prime keep four of the hospitals as acute care facilities for 10 years.

BlueMountain has agreed to honor current collective bargaining agreements with the hospital unions and will work collaboratively with the unions, said Nikels.

As part of the transaction, Nikels added, all pension and retirement plans that are currently “church plans” will become subject to the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974.
Daughters of Charity Health System expects to submit its application to the attorney general within the next week.

The Daughters of Charity opened their first hospital in California in 1858. Called Los Angeles Infirmary, it is now known as St. Vincent Medical Center. The other hospitals involved in the BlueMountain transaction are St. Francis Medical Center in Lynwood, O’Connor Hospital in San Jose, St. Louise Regional Hospital in Gilroy, Seton Medical Center in Daly City and Seton Coastside in Moss Beach.

 

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  1. Is this a product of the new springtime that Vatican II was supposed to usher in ? Since the council, things have become progressively worse with the Church. In the spiritual life, if you are not growing and improving, then you are dying and decaying. The fact that so many Catholic institutions are closing and disappearing is depressing and disgusting. The modernists are rejoicing.

    • Anonymous says:

      I agree absolutely!

    • Unless you can find your accusations in Vatican II documents, stop lying. This is getting old and accomplishes nothing at all except false division. Always provide a quote, name of V II Document, and paragraph number.

      Do not blame V II, but blame SIN and SINNERS – or you are not being honest.

      For those who have not read the 16 – V II Documents, and want to stop the hearsay and learn the truth – http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm

    • This has nothing to do with V II. And you can not prove your false claims.

      This has to do with Bishops and Priests not accurately and completely teaching the Faith – by encouraging reading the Bible and CCC at home by all the literate.
      Far too many Catholics are very ignorant of their Faith.

  2. Tony de New York says:

    That’s the consequence to have left their charisma in taking care of the sick to do something else.

    Sad end.

    • Michael says:

      What do you THINK they’ve been doing?
      They’ve been running these hospitals, but they keep going deeper and deeper into debt, and they must take care of many elderly and infirm Nuns who worked for peanuts in the old days.

  3. If the Federal and State laws prohibit Catholic hospitals and Catholic organizations to operate FULLY within the teachings of the Church – including but not limited to those teachings on Contraception, Abortion, Sterilization, etc., it is much better to divest of the property and of the organization.

    “On the Service of Charity” of Dec 2012 MUST be adhered to:
    http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20121111_caritas.html
    No Catholic organization participate with, or donate money to, or receive money from those who violate our faith.

  4. Another example of the fall of the Church since Vatican 2 when the Church decided to go along with the World instead of being countercultural. The loss of Sisters working solely for Jesus not for money or themselves did this.

    • There is no such thing in any V II document.
      I have read all 16 docs. Have you?
      If so, prove your statement by quoting doc, paragraph number, etc.

      • Andrew Nelson says:

        I have read 13 of the documents so far, and the vagueness within some of the documents was intentional by the modernists, when compared to the clarity of past documents before Vatican II. This allowed many leaders within the Church to veer off the path and take many souls with them. For example, how can Mortalium Animos by Pope Pius XI square with Unitatis Redintegratio from Vatican II with regards to religious unity?

    • Steve Seitz says:

      Edward, the council didn’t say that the Church needs to go along with the world. Can you cite a quote from the council to support your claim?

  5. We all have an OBLIGATION to pay our debts. This includes governments, businesses, organizations, and individuals.

    CCC: ” 2411 Contracts are subject to commutative justice which regulates exchanges between persons and between institutions in accordance with a strict respect for their rights.
    Commutative justice obliges strictly;
    it requires safeguarding property rights, paying debts,
    and fulfilling obligations freely contracted.
    Without commutative justice, no other form of justice is possible.
    One distinguishes commutative justice from legal justice which concerns what the citizen owes in fairness to the community,
    and from distributive justice which regulates what the community owes its citizens in proportion to their…

  6. Bob One says:

    To lay the blame for the sale of the hospitals on the shoulders of VII is an example of not thinking through what is happening in our society and economy. Catholic hospitals have always been non-profits. That doesn’t mean they can afford to lose millions of dollars each year. The way hospitals are paid has changed dramatically over the years and the amount they are paid is lower on a relative basis. The rules and regulations for operations, all with good intentions, are very costly to meet. This was a financial decision. It had nothing to do with VII.

  7. STOP BLAMING THE SISTERS!
    They have been working hard to keep their hospitals open and serving the poor, but, given current financial realities, they can barely take care of their own retired Nuns.

  8. STOP BLAMING THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL!
    The world changes, and we must change with it: for example, we must pay a living wage, which means costs go up.
    In the Bad Old Days, the Nuns worked for a pittance, and now they often have no retirement, no way to take care of their own health care costs, because they had faith that things would go on as before, with plenty of vocations, with people willing to work for nothing, etc.

  9. Michael McDermott says:

    How about we blame the Attorneys – who have made Billion$ off of the Homosex Ephebophile Rape nightmare resulting from turning a blind eye to Our Own Teachings and letting so many men with depraved perverted homosex agendas get at the Boys.

    And of course the coverup by their enablers, who have enriched attorneys (40% of Billions) by shuffling serial pederast rapists around the parishes, in the name of ‘tolerance’ of course.

    The Treasure of the Church was meant to do Good – not pay for Attorneys and vainly try to compensate so many Boys so SSADly harmed by this Great Evil.

    More is coming – like the so called ‘Equality Act’ – aimed directly at Destroying the Church

  10. There are very few nuns that are worthy of being called nuns. By giving up their God given vocation, these former Brides of Christ are now married to society. As a result, these orders have very few vocations. And yes, it is the fault of Vatican II. Look at the statistics. Since V2 all areas (except permanent deacons, and bishops) have much smaller members. The members the Church still has are in many cases, heretics, and non practicing, as Mass attendance keeps falling. It was just released that the Church in Germany is in a free fall as record numbers are leaving the Catholic Church.

    • You, I assume, know the difference between nuns and sisters in the Catholic Church? Both have lost members and are unable to take care of the older members. But, I find it hard to blame that on VII. I blame it more on society in general. Years ago, women could be teachers, nurses and nuns/sisters. Now women can be whatever they want to be, and the cloisters and convents don’t seem so appealing. Too bad too! But again, you can’t blame the state of the world on VII. Most don’t know about it, don’t care about it and don’t find it relevant in their lives. They simply try to be good Catholics.

    • Anonymous says:

      You are completely correct

    • Steve Seitz says:

      Pillar,
      The problems with the state of religious life after the council is multifaceted, and I wouldn’t blame the council, proper, for this. Those religious orders that lost their focus on the truth (Christ) have shriveled up and will soon become extinct. However, those religious orders that maintained their focus on Christ have done quite well. This is Christ pruning his vineyard.

      Constructive criticism and fraternal correction is important. But incessant complaining about the Church doesn’t help anyone. It demoralizes, divides, and is contrary to the heart of Christ. As long as the Church is hamstrung with division, it remains inwardly focused and crippled. We have the truth: it’s time to move forward.

      • Anonymous says:

        I think you mistake Christ and his intentions. Vatican II re-instilled in lay people the very worthwhile notion that holiness is entirely compatible with the lay state, that by living one’s life in one’s own family, one can achieve spiritual unity with Christ. This is a profound concept. Before Vatican II, the idea was often heard that to be a priest or a nun was to be closer to Christ. That one had to leave behind family life in order to follow Christ. This was always a non-sensical idea, and Vatican II succeeded in putting that idea aside. It is not surprising that more holy people now live lives in their own families than before. This is a gift!

    • Anonymous says:

      You’re wrong.

  11. When nuns and sisters were visibly more present in society, young girls would be inspired to join the religious life. By being taught by sisters, seeing them in the hospitals and other places, the girls often received the grace of a religious vocation. An example: if there were no sports on the television, nor in print, or on the radio, or even on the web, how many boys would be inclined to play sports, if they never heard of or knew anyone who played sports.. St. Francis of Assisi preached sermons just by walking around the neighborhood. The sisters were their best vocational calling card, and by just being present In society, they attracted girls to follow them. Vatican II changed all this, as statics prove.

    • Steve Seitz says:

      Pilar, Vatican II didn’t get rid of the habits. It was the nuns, themselves, that did this. Some congregations have intentionally not revised their out-of-date constitutions to avoid being forced to regain, at the very least, a partial habit. Again, this is the fault of nuns: not Vatican II.

      • Where I live in Daly City, we have lots of Sisters in habits, at Mass every single day.
        We have the Religious of the Virgin Mary (RVM) from the Philippines, who run our religious ed program and grief ministry and so forth.
        We have the Missionary Sisters of the Holy Cross (LHC) from Vietnam, who do catechesis, serve as sacristans in our church, work in old folks homes emptying bed pans, and helping with the Vietnamese Mass in San Francisco each weekend.
        We have the Daughters of Charity (in their blue habits), who run Seton Hospital, but are having to sell it because they don’t have the nun-power any longer to do so.

      • Where I attend Mass in Daly City, we have three different orders of Sisters, all of whom wear the habit.
        They are happy, normal, dedicated women, who are trying to do the work of Christ under difficult circumstances: especially the Daughters of Charity who unlike the other two orders, have dwindling vocations and mostly elderly Sisters.

        • Of course, the OTHER two Orders (Missionaries of the Holy Cross: Vietnam; Religious of the Virgin Mary: Philippines), seem to have plenty of vocations, including happy young women entering the Religious Life.
          It’s such a joy to see them at Mass each day, and then going off to do their ministry: running the religious ed program, doing catechism for the Vietnamese children, working in a retirement home for old American Sisters, serving in parishes, helping with Mass for the Vietnamese community.

  12. Michael McDermott says:

    Actually – Catholic Nuns have been the target of Extreme Hate, particularly by the Hollyweird Gaystapo, who most often portray them as either yardstick wielding paddlers (blues brothers) or ditzy ninnies (many examples)… In order to Discourage Respect and Emulation by potential candidates.

    Some simply trash the Whole Church like in the remake of the ‘3 Stooges’ (who were Jewish) as Catholic Orphans…with the Homosex Activists Lynch portraying the head Nun as Gleefully Depraved and fond of ‘sexy syster in a holllyweird style Anti-Catholic farce of hate.

    There are orders of Younger Nuns who are setting Good Examples – and good luck hearing about them from the bought and paid for ‘free press’

  13. Michael McDermott says:

    Consider – If the mega rich ‘GILLBERTS’ had instead spent their money fighting for cures for the types of physically harmful pathological disease spreading Behaviors from the ‘happy’ Conga Line of Buggery…

    Instead of trying to destroy the ‘Enemy’ at the grass roots level – How much tax money could instead Help the Poor?
    SEE
    The Gill Foundation had over $234 million in assets at the close of 2013. It was founded by the politically savvy former businessman Tim Gill.

    He has worked to increase the number of funders of LGBT advocacy.

    He has also pursued a long-term political strategy of advancing LGBT causes by targeting donations to local and statewide political campaigns to stop his political opponents at the start of…

  14. The Sisters who have been faithfully running these many hospitals, and serving the poor at no cost, DO WEAR HABITS, just for your information.
    They are often seen at daily and Sunday Mass in our parish, and they are always in habit.
    What they are NOT is numerous, nor wealthy, so they are having to face some tough decisions about how to survive. They would LOVE to keep the running the hospitals, but they don’t have enough young recruits to step forward and take the veil, so they must also focus on their OWN poor: the elderly and infirm Sisters who need their care.

  15. Steve Phoenix says:

    Pilar comes under attack for correctly tracing the collapse of religious orders and institutions to V2. Many still cannot see the forest due for the trees: Vatican II, like the Delphic Sibyl, has come to define the very idea of an ambiguous utterance:

    Each of its documents may be interpreted somewhat in accord with traditional Catholic doctrine, or, as Schillebeeckx, the progressive peritus and its luminary, pronounced, “We will use ambiguous terms, and after the Council we will know how to interpret them.” Resultingly, it is almost amusing how those who defend V2 demand to be shown “where does the Council state this-or-that error?” Like the Sibyl, it is how it is interpreted variously, but especially by its own proponents,…

    • Steve Phoenix says:

      Even so, when Schillebeeckx in an unguarded moment reveals the insidious plan to dismantle the traditional Catholic Church, many Catholics, either through obtuseness or displaced anger (anger that should be directed at their leadership), disbelieve their own eyes. “V2 doesn’t say that!” is their mantra. yet it does: according to the Sibyl, or its Janus-like two-faced ambiguity does.

      Even this not being enough, Yves Congar, one of the great lions of V2, therefore coined the term “Spirit of V2”, to drive the Church and its doctrinal system, far beyond the literal writing of the documents, to accordingly fuel the engine of endless internal revolution.

      • Steve Phoenix says:

        Since this story, about the Daughters of Charity and their own plummeting post-V2 numbers that have given rise to the abandonment of their Catholic hospital ministry: Let’s just take one of its often-overlooked documents, Perfectae Caritatis, (“PC,”Oct. 1965), on the “Adaptation and Renewal of Religious Life.”

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          Delphic double-meanings are replete in Perfectae Caritatis: It calls for a “firm observance of the rule” of a religious order, on the one hand, but also says superiors should “respect subjects’ liberty” and “direction of conscience.” (#14): two inevitable polar opposites. It says some orders should retain their character, but orders others “to admit clerics and lay persons” on equal footing (#15). Most destructive of all, religious orders’ habits are to be changed: “Religious habits…should be suited to circumstances of time and place and needs of ministry” (#17). This translated to wholesale abandonment of religious garb and effective laicization. Oh, and proud-V2 defenders, don’t overlook this: PC gave us that treasured V2 bomb…

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            Oh, and proud-V2 defenders, PC gave us that treasured V2 bomb that keeps giving: the LCWR, populated by Earth-worshipping, abortion-supporting conference-members: Perfectae Caritatis calls for leadership councils of religious order superiors to lead the way (#23).

            But don’t worry: it’s an Ecumenical Council, it is without error in all its particulars.

          • Steve Seitz says:

            Steve P: Despite what happened at the Council, it’s still the nuns, themselves, who actually got rid of the habits. The wearing of habits is a very good thing, but is wearing a habit actually necessary to be a religious sister?

            Regarding Vatican II being completely infallible, my statement to you in the “When You’re the Only One on the Floor” comment area indicates that most of the counciliar documents are not infallible. So if someone says that the Council is entirely infallible, they are wrong. However, the counciliar documents, like other church documents, are presumed to be true and some Catholics don’t understand this fine point.
            [1 of 2, Continued]

          • Steve Seitz says:

            Lastly, most people on this site [including myself] sympathize with a lot of what you’re saying. But practically none of us, including Catholic EF folk, agree with jumping ship, abandoning the Church, repudiating a valid council, or anything else that is contrary to the Body of Christ. Time is of the essence. Catholics need to be moving forward together in the Holy Spirit.

            Division is of the devil.
            [2 of 2, End]

          • Steve Seitz says:

            Steve P: For sake of clarity regarding my previous message. When I said that people sympathize with a lot of what you’re saying, this is in regards to a variety of issues that occurred after the Council and not in regard to your direct attacks on Vatican II.

          • Steve Phoenix, as a supporter of the Traditional Latin Mass, I resent your pretending to represent us regarding Vatican II.
            Based upon your posts – you are a heretic and schismatic, and you should admit it.
            Are you also a Sedevacantist ?
            Do you attend the SSPX Mass – Priests who hold no “no canonical status in the Church ?

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            Ah, yes, the angry “resentful” personal-attack response—but we must never, never address the facts. The facts prove the point: the Delphic-double meanings of Vatican II, ambiguous statements designed to introduce revolution and error, as Schillebeeckx himself admitted, have been a disaster for the Catholic Church.
            Denial of reality is a powerful source of resentfulness.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            And BTW, I don’t claim to “represent” anyone other than my own, non-sedesvacaaaantist, non-schismaaastic, Catholic search for the truth. Anne’s bitterly angry “ppproud ttttraditionalist” assertions notwithstanding. Just another angry backbiter. Happy Our Lady of the Snows-feast!

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            Not to see this linkage, not to see how Perfectae Caritatis, “On Religious Life” (PC) (one of the last V2 decrees, dated Oct., 1965, only a few months prior to the peak and collapse)—–not to see that PC uses the words “adapt/adaptation/adjust”, Delphic-double meaning words for change, used in a very short document, 13 times. Only one time does it recommend “the firm observance of the rule”.

            And you still can’t see how the destruction was catalyzed by V2? So it is, “the blind may see, and those with sight have become blind?” (Jn 9:39)

            Look at the graphs (those other than Anne, that is): look at the facts: look at the narrative that CARA records and notes:

            http://cara.georgetown.edu/WomenReligious.pdf

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            Not to see how Perfectae Caritatis of Vatican II, “On Religious Life” —one of the last V2 decrees, dated Oct., 1965, only a few months prior to the peak and collapse—–not to see the CARA graphs that show a peak of women’s orders’ membership in 1966 (181,000), from that point, on precipitously drop, not to see that PC uses the words “adapt/adaptation/adjust”, Delphic-double meaning words for change, used in a very short document, 13 times—Really?.

            Only one time does the decree recommend “the firm observance of the rule”. 13+ times it recommends change. What do you think would be the outcome?

            Those of you [other than Anne], who wish to be analytical and non-emotional: look at the graphs: look at the narrative…

  16. Steve Phoenix says:

    The best thing to do is to trace the destruction of V2 from those, esp. the orders who fully instituted the changes, such as pointed out in Perfectae Caritatis, to obtain greater “psychological and emotional maturity.” (#12, PC)

    As then-Rogerian psychologist William Coulson related in his shocking interview, “We Overcame Their Faith”, cf:

    http://catholicpsychology.blogspot.com/2007/07/perverting-of-catholic-religious.html.

    • Steve Phoenix says:

      William Coulson, Ph.D., describes vividly how the IHM nuns, the very nuns now fighting Abp. Gomez over their convent sale, fully took on the V2 diktat for psychological maturity, and brought in Rogers’ people in 1966 to re-think their religious lives. Coulson himself states the IHM’s were acting on the directions they received from Vatican II and the Sr Mary Luke Tobin-types (a V2 radical progressive perita). The results were devastating to the order and to people’s lives: see the following link to the interview.

      http://www.solasfm.ie/solasfm_psychology.htm

      Besides the IHM’s, the Sisters of Mercy, Jesuits and the St Barbara’s Franciscans brought in the group-psych teams to destroy themselves. Oh, BTW, it was funded by…

      • Steve Phoenix says:

        Besides the IHM’s, the Sisters of Mercy, Jesuits and the St Barbara’s Franciscans brought in the group-psych teams to destroy themselves. Oh, BTW, it was funded by a grant from the US gov’s Natl Institute of Mental Health.

        So, now, then, V2 was a benign council, and is not responsible for the devastation that it occasioned. And everything would have turned out the same, “even if”…

        Rubbish on stilts. But don’t act ignorant about it.

  17. Steve Phoenix says:

    And lastly, no one should ever claim “V2 was not responsible for the abandonment of religious orders’ habits”, the religious habit being one of the most successful identifying means of putting “the Church in the Modern World” (ironically):

    The time-bomb is right there in #17 of Perfectae Caritatis, the permission to fully change/”adapt”/discard the religious costume, because “They (= religious garb) should be suited to the needs of time and place…” (#17). The Delphic interpretation: as with the IHM’s, the Sisters of the Holy Names, and innumerable other orders: the discarding of identifiable religious dress. Lenin, Marx, and Gramschi could not have ever hoped for so much.

  18. Steve Phoenix says:

    CARA/Georgetown’s studies on religious orders’ numbers in the USA traces the collapse to one point in time: 1965, the year V2 ended. (see the graphs at their website). The Daughters of Charity similarly were over 2500 (USA) in 1960. Today, they are about 670, and have dropped from 5 provinces to 2.
    Read it and see the devastation for yourself:
    http://cara.georgetown.edu/WomenReligious.pdf
    But don’t believe the charts, the objective numbers, and your own lying eyes: it could NOT be our glorious Ecumenical Infallible Council, Vatican II, that occasioned the present collapse.

  19. Steve Phoenix says:

    Just to show the direct linkage (besides the witness of William Coulson, CARA/Georgetown’s studies, and others), CARA has researched women’s religious order membership in the US since at least the 1950’s. Sisters’ orders were rising from 1950 on, until in 1966, they peaked at 181,000 members. (What happened in Dec. 1965? Something like the last session of Vat II?) From that point it has been a severe and continuing collapse, until today (2014), there are less than 50,000 members:
    http://cara.georgetown.edu/WomenReligious.pdf

    • Steve Phoenix says:

      Not to see this linkage, not to see how Perfectae Caritatis, “On Religious Life” (PC) (one of the last V2 decrees, dated Oct., 1965, only a few months prior to the peak and collapse)—–not to see that PC uses the words “adapt/adaptation/adjust”, Delphic-double meaning words for change, used in a very short document, 13 times. Only one time does it recommend “the firm observance of the rule”.

      And you still can’t see how the destruction was catalyzed by V2? So it is, “the blind may see, and those with sight have become blind?” (Jn 9:39)
      Look at the graphs: look at the facts: look at the narrative that CARA observes and notes:

      http://cara.georgetown.edu/WomenReligious.pdf

      • Steve P, let’s assume that you are correct in your analysis of the available data. What do you propose going forward? How can we regain nearly 100,000 new sisters and nuns? What can we do to make being a nun/sister a “cool thing” for young women? How will we pay for it?

      • Your Fellow Catholic says:

        One of the points of Vatican II was a better understanding of the role of the laity in the Church. I think that it successfully inculcated the idea that you don’t have to be a priest or nun to lead a holy life. Is that a bad thing?

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          Ah yes, now here is a reply worth noting: “You don’t have to be a priest or a nun to lead a holy life..” A half-truth: but in effect, this is the “Propter hoc, it’s all good” theory: “None of those people REALLY had a vocation, and therefore Vatican II is not to blame. They are better off, and the Church is better off, without them in consecrated life.” (Ah: this story above, in part, is about the collapse of a religious order and its corresponding collapse of its eminently Catholic works. Get it?)

          That is a consummate rationalization and self-deception: William Coulson’s personal account destroys this myth: cf his interview:

          https://www.ewtn.com/library/PRIESTS/LATINM.TXT

      • Steve Seitz says:

        Steve P: I don’t think you understanding. The ecumenical councils strike at the heart of Catholic dogma. Your views are intrinsically not Catholic. To call yourself Catholic but reject an ecumenical council is close to anathema. This is why your views upset so many people on this website.

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          Ah, yes: “Your views are intrinsically not Catholic.” Much better to accuse than to think: the rush of endorphins, you know.

          Mr. Seitz overlooks that he acknowledges himself not all of a council’s pronouncements are infallible or dogmatic. Where Vat II is consonant with Catholic doctrine, it is perfectly valid. (Cf. Vatican I, “Pastor Aeternus”, #4: ” For the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might make known new doctrine..”)
          NO NEW DOCTRINE, fratres.

          The Delphic-Sybilline double-meanings of V2’s statements is the issue: double-meanings intended to foment revolution and destruction in the CC: and that has been amply documented here, and no one is willing to take on…

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            Come, come, friends it is easy to accept the facts:

            Card. Leo Joseph Suenens himself admitted that Vatican II was the commencement of revolution in the Church, saying openly, “Vatican II is the French Revolution in the Church”
            Edvard Schillebeeckx, in an unguarded moment, revealed the deliberate conspiracy to use the Janus-like two-faced statements of Vatican II for this revolution: “We will use ambiguous terms, and after the Council we will know how to interpret them.” Yves Congar, that master conspirator (read: “My Journal of the Council” crafted the phrase “The Spirit of Vatican II”—so the revolution no longer needed to depend on the actual text of the conciliar docs.

          • Steve Seitz says:

            Steve P: Point 1 — Your views of Vatican II are heretical. This is descriptive, accurate, and is not name calling.

            Point 2 — Vatican II is not infallible in all of its proclamations. But all of its documents rank much higher than a papal encyclical and all have the presumption of truth. Because it’s an ecumenical council, its documents ARE Catholic doctrine unless they’re referencing non-doctrinal subjects. (The Council is not merely compared to Catholic doctrine).

            Point 3 — The personal statements of any bishop have no bearing on the validity of any council.
            [1 of 2, Continued]

          • Steve Seitz says:

            Point 4 — New doctrines created out of “whole cloth” would certainly be false doctrines. But the concept of the Development of Doctrine has been revealed through the councils and is doctrinal. If you call this false, you have again veered into heresy.

            Instead of recognizing your ignorance of Church history, the Ecumenical Councils, and some important Catholic doctrines, you remain obstinate in ignorance. Humility would be a more appropriate and holy response.
            [2 of 2, End]

  20. Steve Phoenix says:

    Now, Propter Bob Ergo Bob, before we go forward, are you indeed admitting what we all need to admit, that Vatican II was a disaster for the Church, that its roots are identifiable, that a future council and Pope will need to nullify it, and we need to learn from this? If so,, the corollary positions are easy to follow. If not, this is just another ruse to entice everyone into a false traditional Church that an angry socialist pope can deconstruct when it suits him. So, what is it?

  21. Steve Phoenix says:

    And Propter Bob Ergo et al, if you are serious, first I insist you read Romano Amerio’s personal account of the 2nd Vatican Council: it is about 900 devastating pages, from an expert eye-witness, the highest-ranking layperson at Vatican II, a renowned expert in philosophy and theology at the Lateran University, when it was really a great university: and find out the truth about Vatican II. For the sake of your soul, Propter Bob.

    • Anonymous says:

      Promoting the reading of a minor author instead of the writings of the bishops around the world with the approval of the Roman Pontiff, acting in an Ecumenical Council, is hardly a “for the sake of your soul”. It might be intellectually interesting, but hardly “for the sake of your soul” kind of material.

  22. Steve Phoenix says:

    Yves Congar, the great lion of V2, was the one who coined the term “The Spirit of V2”, to drive the Church and its doctrinal system, far beyond the literal writing of the documents, and so to accordingly fuel the engine of endless internal revolution. Someone once attacked Canisius on this website for using the very same term “Spirit of Vatican II”, showing their own ignorance of how the very purveyors of the Conciliar Revolution wore this as a badge of honor. In Spring, 2014, Dr. Saundra Schneiders of JST-Berkeley proudly gave a conference on “The Spirit of Vatican II,” declaiming it reaches beyond the written docs.
    But real V2 witnesses/periti, like the late Fr. Dan O’Hanlon, SJ (Ph.D) of USF, an expert at the Council,…

    • Steve Phoenix says:

      The late Fr. Dan O’Hanlon,, SJ (Ph.D) of USF, an expert at the Council, a peritus, used to tell us, his students, “After the euphoria of the Council, there was later a sense of emptiness, of meaninglessness. Nothing mattered.”

      When revolution is incorporated in the double-meaning, Janus-like documents of Vatican II, there can only succeed endless ages of upheaval, disturbance, and confusion. But, God is a God of order, not confusion (1 Cor. 14:33): so God cannot be present in a social “order’ of endless disorder. This itself is the clearest rule of discernment pronouncing judgment on the Pure and Infallible Ecumenical 2nd Vatican Council.

  23. Steve Phoenix says:

    Card. Leo Joseph Suenens himself admitted that Vatican II was the commencement of revolution in the Church, saying so, “Vatican II is the French Revolution in the Church.”

    Dutch theologian Edvard Schillebeeckx, in an unguarded moment, revealed the deliberate conspiracy to use the Janus-like two-faced statements of Vatican II for this revolution: “We will use ambiguous terms, and after the Council we will know how to interpret them.” Yves Congar, that master conspirator (read: “My Journal of the Council”) crafted the phrase “The Spirit of Vatican II”—so the revolution no longer needed to depend on the actual text of the conciliar docs. The New Theologians could impose any meaning they wished on their victim, the Church.

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