Fatima and the conspiracy theories

We consecrated Russia - but did we do it wrong?

The following comes from a February 28 The Catholic Thing article by Howard Kainz. Full-length version in link.

The 1917 apparitions of the Virgin Mary to three children at Fátima (ending in October of that year with the greatest historical public miracle before 70,000 observers) offer us without doubt a formidable example of Our Lady’s loving intervention, to warn the world of coming threats, and offer powerful remedies to avoid wars and achieve peace.

Witnessing the “miracle of the sun” at Fátima, Portugal, October 13, 1917

Witnessing the “miracle of the sun” at Fátima, Portugal, October 13, 1917

But the proper interpretation of Fátima is of the utmost importance.

For some decades, the Canadian priest, Fr. Nicholas Gruner, the “Fátima priest,” and the Fátima Center that he founded, have been claiming that the ills that the world and, especially, the Church are now suffering could be avoided if only the consecration of Russia by the pope and the bishops of the world, requested by Our Lady in a vision to Sr. Lucia on December 10, 1925, had been done correctly. By “correctly,” Gruner means mentioning Russia by name.

In December 1983, Pope John Paul II consulted with Sister Lucia, the only Fátima visionary then still living, about fulfillment of Our Lady’s wishes.

Afterwards, Sr. Lucia wrote that the pope had fulfilled Our Lady’s requests; and several years later, the world witnessed the collapse of the Berlin wall and the dismantling of the Soviet Union. As I have written elsewhere, and in a follow-up article, the promised “conversion” of Russia seems to have begun, with religious freedom, a massive proliferation of churches, monasteries, and seminaries, and church attendance almost comparable to that in Portugal, where, as Our Lady promised Sr. Lucia, “the doctrine of faith will always be preserved.”

The three children who witnessed the apparitions at Fatima: Lucy dos Santos, Francisco Marto, and Jacinto Marto.

The three children who witnessed the apparitions at Fatima: Lucy dos Santos, Francisco Marto, and Jacinto Marto.

But Fr. Gruner and his fellow Fatimists maintain that the consecration has to be done over, mentioning Russia by name, and that the five minutes spent doing this will bring about a miraculous conversion the likes of which the world has never seen. Gruner has even recommended a novel, Russian Sunrise, in which a Gruner “avatar” appears under the name of Fr. Nicholas Gottschalk, who finally convinces the pope follow his advice, leading to miraculous changes in Russia.

An alleged Vatican “conspiracy” of silence does not end there, but according to the Fatimists, the Third Secret of Fátima, revealed by Pope John Paul II in 2000, is missing an essential second part. Sr. Lucia herself, when she revealed the third secret in 1944 and sent it to the Vatican in 1957, said she could only give the details of what she was actually shown. But that she was not allowed to give Our Lady’s explanation, which was made known to her.

Conspiracy theories aside, we should focus on the essential message of Fátima. In the 1917 May and June Fátima apparitions, the three children were asked to pray the rosary every day for the end of World War I and peace for the world. This is her primary request.

On December 10, 1925, Our Lady made another extraordinary request/promise – the Five First Saturdays: “I promise to assist at the hour of death, with the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, shall confess, receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary, and keep me company for 15 minutes while meditating on the 15 mysteries of the Rosary, with the intention of making reparation to me.”

Father Gruner (fatima.org)

Father Gruner (fatima.org)

But do the Fatimists really think if the pope redoes the “consecration of Russia” verbatim in five minutes, that all of a sudden miraculous conversions are going to take place, among the great masses of Christians – who are busy contracepting like the pagans, promoting sodomy, and profaning marriage?

Hello! The Soviet Union is no longer persecuting Christians, and “spreading its errors throughout the world.” Islamists are doing that now. Our Lady didn’t divulge any secrets about Islam at Fátima. No special “secrets” are necessary for those of us who, even intermittently, follow world news. The spiritual crises are clear. But the main, essential solution Mary offered at Fátima is still completely relevant. If you think the world is going to hell in a hand basket, it’s time to start following the indispensible simple requests of Our Lady – the daily rosary and the five First Saturdays.

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  1. Kristin says:

    When the Blessed Mother asks the Consecration of Russia – by name – to her Immaculate Heart, it’s best to do just that. The consecrations to date have not done this. Russia has not been converted and there has not yet been a period of peace, as she promised. She is not holding back, the Pope and the bishops are.

    • Linda Maria says:

      I agree with the post of Kristin! Our Lady also NEVER makes compromises! She is very EXACT!!

    • Linda Maria says:

      I agree with the post of Kristin! Our Lady NEVER compromises, she always speaks TRUTH!! She is very EXACT!! Our Church is too worldly, too “human,” and needs to forsake the “fallen” world– and return to Christ!

    • Linda Maria says:

      Sorry– but the computer seemed to delete my first post, so I wrote another!

  2. Steve Phoenix says:

    One of the most compelling and well-written books on Fatima is “Twilight at Fatima”, by Mark Fellows. Fellows had full access to the exhaustive Fatima archives (there are over 200 densely written volumes of eyewitness and first-hand accounts among the archive; I doubt Howard Kain is aware of that fact) and Fellows has written a readable, fact-based historical work tracing the facts of the Fatima appearances of Our Lady from the first event in spring, 1917, up through all the pontificates to almost the present. He also reveals the conflict between Fatima and the Vatican Secretary of State’s policy of Ostpolitik, an essential element to know about the matter.

    There are other fine books, like “The Sun Danced at Fatima” by J. Pelletier, and “Our Lady of Fatima”, by William T. Walsh (Walsh tells first – hand of his interviews of Sr. Lucia, before she was later forbidden to give interviews). But Fellows’ well-referenced work goes even beyond these, and the new reader may find them jaw-dropping.

  3. Steve Phoenix says:

    Fellows’ book is “Fatima in Twilight”, correction

  4. DAVID V. says:

    Read a Catholic Bible, and the CCC for the Doctrine of the Faith.
    (Know right from wrong, even if you have an evil Bishop who refuses to do his teaching job accurately or a bad Priest.)
    Stay close to the Sacraments.

    This is what we need for the Salvation of our Souls.

    CCC: ” 133 The Church “forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures.
    Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.”

  5. Father Karl says:

    Oftentimes ‘conspiracy’ theories ARE correct. There was a conspiracy to kill Our Lord, and then there was another one which tried to discredit His resurrection. If one exams the facts concerning Fatima, there IS a conspiracy AGAINST it. Why was the secret not revealed in the 1960’s? Why has Russia NOT been consecrated according to the wishes of Our Lady? Russia HAS spread her evil ways throughout the world, even though presently she is not the most wicked of all nations. Sister Lucia WAS silenced by the Vatican. IF Fatima is NOT important, WHY is the Vatican so against Father Gruner, if he is only expressing his opinion, while heretics such as Hans Kung, and others are free to preach and publish what they want? Just as the assassination of JFK is still unsolved, and serious questions remain, I believe there are important facts concerning Fatima which have not been revealed, and are being discredited by enemies of Our Lady.

    • Carlos Alomar says:

      At 8 million abortions per year, I wouldn’t be so quick to take Russia out of the running for the title of most wicked of all nations.

    • Anonymous says:

      “just as the assassination of JFK is still unsolved”. Well there you have it. The non-sensical musings of neo-con priests these days.

      • Anonymous, I have been studying the Kennedy Assassination for 40 years. I assure you the deeper one goes into this labyrinth, the more answered questions one finds. Fr. Karl is spot on.

  6. The Other Rose says:

    Sister Lucia’s said it was fulfilled, good enough for me.

    • The VATICAN said that Sister Lucia said it was fulfilled. Big difference! Why was Sr. Lucia silenced by the Vatican? Fr. Karl above posted some very important facts. The revealed ‘third secret’ was so milk toast that it is hard to believe other popes have declined to reveal it. No, there is something else, which we will probably never know, but the Rosary and the 5 Saturdays are very important to Our Lady. In addition, Pope John Paul II conferred with his cardinals and bishops on the consecration, and it was thought that to mention Russia specifically in the consecration would hinder diplomacy with Russia.

      • The Other Rose says:

        Sheila, check out this EWTN link for personal letters of Sr. Lucia to Sr. Mary of Bethlehem and Fr. Fox regarding her statements that the consecration was fulfilled. Also within the first letter is the reason why, she finally approved the consecration and why she had not the previous ones.

        https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/Fatima1984.htm

        J.+ M.

        The Peace of Christ

        Rev. Father Robert J. Fox

        I come to answer your question, “If the consecration made by Pope John Paul II on March 25, 1984 in union with all the bishops of the world, accomplished the conditions for the consecration of Russia according to the request of Our Lady in Tuy on June 13 of 1929?” Yes, it was accomplished, and since then I have said that it was made.

        And I say that no other person responds for me, it is I who receive and open all letters and respond to them.

        Coimbra, 3 July 1990

        Sister Lucia

        • Carlos Alomar says:

          Did Sister Lucia hear the words of the consecration, or was she just reacting to the fact that the all the bishops were called to participate? IF IT IS TRUE that Sr Lucia did in fact state that the consecration was properly done, it would certainly be interesting to know what her thinking was. Mary specifically asked that Russia be consecrated. Mary did not ask for any other country to be consecrated, and Mary did not ask that the world be consecrated. Mary did not say, consecrate Russia, but you can just consecrate the world instead if you think the politics are touchy. So, how is it possible for a consecration to be satisfactory when it does not mention Russia? How in any common sense is it possible to specifically consecrate Russia by consecrating something else? This isn’t a supernatural mystery. Rather, this tests credulity. What if the consecration had been of the “universe,” would that have done it too? It’s just pretty darn fishy when there is clearly resistance to consecrate “Russia” by name, and then have all these awkward efforts after the fact to say that Sister Lucia approved. Where is the Pope’s theological answer as to why this is was sufficient? He certainly wasn’t told by Sister Lucia ahead of time to do it that way. He did it on his own. Oh yeah, that was good enough, no problem, you’re good. There’s nothing here. Move on.

          • Pete Green says:

            First there was refusal for decades to do the consecration at all. Then there was refusal to mention Russia by name. But after it all, “Fatimists” are accused of unfaithfulness for questioning anything about it.

  7. Arthur Lee says:

    This article was simply written by an idiot, sorry for the insult, but it can’t be avoided. If anyone, I repeat, anyone, thinks that the United States is not drowning in “the errors of Russia,” they’ve got their head in a bag. The U.S. religion is that of Political Correctness (PC), i.e, state sponsored liberalism for the purpose of subjugating the masses into ideological nothingness and the elimination of nations to form a global socialist/communist state. In other words, international communism. In such a system, bogeymen such as Hitler, Hussein, ISIS and the lot are useful tools for destroying nationalistic impulses so that international communism can be substituted. Ending WWII, Stalin (supported by Freemasons FDR and Churchill) was handed all the countries Hitler invaded to start it all. Fast forward to 1989, the Berlin Wall was removed to let communism out, not let freedom in, and to finance this “progress” with American money, doled out by the international FED. Remember, the prophesies of St. John, that the antichrist will rule over “every nation, tongue and creed,” cannot be realized absent a world government, by definition.

    • Anonymous says:

      Oh dear jesus. Will you be leading the rosaries down in the bunker? See you there.

      • Arthur Lee says:

        No bunkers will be involved. As Italian communist theoretician Antonio Gramsci (d. 1937) laid out, the final communist triumph would occur not by tanks or guns but rather by secularizing the culture to the point of Godlessness. In 1996, the Marxist journal “Dissent” approvingly recited the evidence for Gramscian victory including: the advance of feminism, affirmative action, cultural pluralism, gun ownership restrictions, gay rights, legalization of abortion, abolition of capital punishment, and the portrayal of all this through media. Mary doesn’t lie – Russia has spread its errors all over the world. Post script: Gramsci died in a Mussolini prison, but not before repenting on his deathbed and surrendering himself to the Catholic faith of his youth. May he pray for us.

  8. Anonymous says:

    “Did we do it wrong?”
    How silly.
    What we “did” in terms of consecrating Russia has no impact on world affairs.
    God is in charge, not we.

  9. Barbara says:

    I would read Fr. Gruner’s book, Crucial Truths, before any other book about Fatima. Also, I don’t appreciate Howard Kainz’s snarky reference to “Fatimists”. Our Blessed Mother specifically requested the consecration of Russia. What is so difficult about that? Does anyone seriously think Russia has been converted? Or that we are enjoying a period of peace in the world?

    Our Lady promised that it would be late but eventually the pope (and bishops) would do what was requested of them. The situation looks dire but I’m hanging my hat on that promise.

  10. Linda Hughes says:

    “But do the Fatimists really think if the Pope redoes the Consecration of Russia verbatim in five minutes, that all of a sudden that miraculous conversions are going to take place among the great masses of Christians?” Well, do you really think that God would send His mother to us with a lie? I think not…

    • Carlos Alomar says:

      Of course you’re right. Think in terms of what Out Lady of Guadalupe accomplished in Mexico. That’s what Mary means when she says a country will be converted.

  11. Catherine says:

    My convert father’s mother actually witnessed the phenomenon of the unknown light. This event as described by my grandmother had a profound impact on my father later becoming a Catholic.

    Unknown light or Aurora Borealis?

    Sister Lucia considered the extraordinary light that illuminated the skies of Europe on the night of January 25-26, 1938 during the hours of 8:45 p.m. to 1:15 a.m., as “the great sign” – the unknown light that Our Lady predicted that would signal that war was near.

    Astronomers and skeptic brush it off as a mere aurora borealis though its character was remarkably unprecedented. Interestingly enough, the book, The Secrets of Fatima explains: “This aurora appeared as far south as Galicia, Spain, where Sister Lucy was then cloistered, and she, the only survivor of the three Fatima shepherds, recognized it immediately as the sign. Visible even to Pius XI in Rome, the unprecedented aurora was accompanied by a ‘crackling’ sound, possibly attributable to discharges of atmospheric energy. Indeed, in many areas of Europe, panic broke out; as the populace concluded that the world was on fire and that the End had come.”

    The New York Times for January 26, 1938, carried the following:
    “London, January 25th, 1938. The Aurora Borealis rarely seen in Southern or Western Europe spread fear in parts of Portugal and lower Austria tonight while thousands of Britons were brought running into the streets in wonderment. The ruddy glow led many to think half the city was ablaze.

  12. Russia was NEVER consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary the way it was supposed to be. Anyway, quoting Shakespeare: I THINK HE DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH, is how I know the Vatican is treating Father Gruner. The Vatican mafia has been on his case for many years, and yet, this priest has committed NO sin. Why not pick on the clergy and the feminist nuns who lead sacrilegious lives in turning faithful Catholics into atheists and heretics.. There must be a reason, and it is that Father Gruner is telling the truth, and the liberal establishment does not like it. After reading several scholarly books on Fatima I conclude that Vatican II NEVER should have been called since that council is the main cause for the lack of faith, and the rapid deterioration of the Catholic Church. Pope John XXIII called those who did not want a council “doomsayers”, but these doomsayers were true prophets as they knew what a mess the council would bring.

  13. Jesusita says:

    PraytoourLady, for your information, Father Gruner is NOT his own pope. He has not been excommunicated, and he is incardinated in an Indian diocese. .Father has no axe to grind, and he is not afraid to stand up for the truth. I have been a supporter of the Fatima Center for many years , and I am grateful to God that Father Gruner is around to set the record straight on Fatima. I suggest you read a book called FALSE FRIENDS OF FATIMA which refutes the lies being said about this devoted priest. Ave Maria Purrissima!

    • Anonymous says:

      Would you mind telling me where I can find the financial information tor Father Gruner’s organization? It claims to be tax deductible “to the full extent of the law” but I cannot find its 501c3 and it is not listed as a non-profit on Guidestar or Charity Navigator.

  14. Courageous priest Fr. Paul Nicholson-who recently gave a parish mission at Mary Star of the Sea in the Bay area-offers some brilliant insights on the very serious errors of Fr. Gruner and how dangerous it is for Catholics to have anything to do with him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAcbfMeL6wM

    • Anonymous says:

      Thank you for posting this.

    • Carlos Alomar says:

      Not a bad presentation. The basic statement is that Fr Gruner is suspended for failure to return to his diocese. But interesting that the video says nothing about whether Fr Gruner’s claims regarding the consecration are true or false, regardless of his priestly status. One does not need to be a priest to make these claims. Others have conducted in depth investigations, including Antonio Socci, and have come to the same conclusions as Fr Gruner.

    • Ann Malley says:

      Fr. Nicholason, for all the good he may do, is misguided in his assertions regarding Fr. Gruener and the Society of St. Pius X:

      http://angelqueen.org/2015/03/06/the-sspx-schism-ewtn-vs-cmtv/

      So, with regard to his warning of how dangerous it is, I would posit that it is dangerous for Fr. Nicholason to declare and/or intimate that which is beyond his body of knowledge and authority. For presuming to make such pronouncements is often had due to pride or a vested interest to increase one’s audience – perhaps not the purest of intentions.

    • The Other Rose says:

      Thank you Jay, i watched that clip. Excellent! I got sucked into Fr. Gruner’s message many years ago but thankfully it didn’t last very long. I didn’t realize he was suspended from faculties and so disobedient to The Church in his ways and bringing division not peace to his followers. Fr. Nicholson is right on, love him!

      • Ann Malley says:

        Fr. Gruener is not suspended:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBM-pyxXPPI
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-TVHTbtGwY
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Lwev3Rs68M

        Fr. Nicholson, for all of his efforts, seems rather intent on making proclamations that he’s not qualified to make and/or has not adequately researched. His penchant for sensationalism is rather biased considering he’s attempting to build a following. This notion that all division is anathema is absurd when the division is precisely to divide that which is true, the whole truth, from that which is not the truth. Being shielded from that which is potentially true regarding what Fr. Gruender has to say for the sake of establishing unity seems a form of fear mongering.

        Lest we forget, Our Lord prayed to the *Father* for unity. And true unity cannot be had in a unity of ignoring realities… and the fullness of truth regarding such critical matters. To us, Our Lord said the following:

        Not Peace, But Division
        (Matthew 10:34-36)

        49I am come to cast fire on the earth; and what will I, but that it be kindled? 50And I have a baptism wherewith I am to be baptized: and how am I straitened until it be accomplished? 51Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation. 52For there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided: three against two, and two against three.

  15. Linda Maria says:

    The Blessed Mother is always excat, whenever she speaks! We cannot understand it, but she knows the truth, far above mankind’s understanding! The Vatican is too worldly! It would be so much better, if the Vatican was more monastic, and much deeper in following Christ— not so involved in the world!

  16. Jesusita says:

    The radio talk show host, Michael Savage, has said that ‘Liberalism is a mental disease’. When liberals and other radicals, who are students of Saul Allinsky, cannot get their way, they resort to name calling and character assignation. If some of these liberals were up on what is new and trendy, they would see that Bill O’Reilly, and others recently wrote books on the murder of JFK. There are many possibilities on who was behind the plot. If anyone denies this, they act like an air head by their ignorance, and are lost in space. So before calling Father Karl a neo-priest, and other people whom you disagree with, check your facts, and do some research. To personally call someone a derogatory name is slander, which is a sin. Ave Maria Purrissima!

  17. Any good orthodox priest ive spoken to has said the consecration hasn’t been done as well as that the whole 3rd secret hasn’t been revealed and this included Mother Angelica. I suggest people read the book THE FOURTH SECRET OF FATIMA by ANTONIO SOCCI who was a close friend of Cardinal Bertone until as a journalist investigated this topic.

    • Here is Jimmy Akin’s opinion on whether the consecration has been been properly made. He is a Senior Apologist at CATHOLIC ANSWERS. He makes what I think is a strong argument that it HAS. You can listen to what he says for free at the link that says “download” http://jimmyakin.com/2012/02/has-the-consecration-requested-by-our-lady-of-fatima-been-made-or-not.html

    • Sadly, Mother Angelica has been has not been able to tape anything since 2003 because of her serious stroke.

      Edward, please send us a link to prove your statement when you invoke her name. And pay attention to dates.
      Mother Angelia did not personally see St. Lucia’s letter to the Pope, and I doubt that those being quoted by posters on this site saw it either.

      Provide the proof folks, hearsay is not acceptable.
      An affidavit by anyone writing a book on the topic that they saw Lucia’s letter themselves is acceptable.

  18. Here are a couple of items as food for thought.

    Sr. Lucia accept the Vatican Council, the New Mass, the current Popes, the reforms, and was all around nothing like Gruner et al., who typically reject the New Mass as a pleasing worship to God, reject the Council as an authoritative Council, and many times operate outside the authority of the local bishop, or look away when their friends do. The so-called followers of her gloss over these facts. Sr. Lucia had no interaction with the Fatima conspiracy theorists.

    In addition, Sr. Lucia is now dead. Since she was the last seer, it stands to reason that she was necessary to “validate” a consecration. This would seem to be supported by the conspiracy theorists too, since they say that the Pope’s views and the Vatican documents are not sufficient to certify that a consecration has been done. One wonders now that Sr Lucia is dead, who do we look to to have our doubts allayed? Uh, the Pope and the Vatican authorities who are delegated authority to teach on such an item. But Fr. Gruner and friends ultimately see themselves as the authorities. Sorry, now that Sr. Lucia is dead, and was alive when the consecration is done and the “third secret” as revealed, I hang my hat with the Pope and the CDF.

    • Pete Green says:

      No it doesn’t stand to reason that Sister Lucia was necessary to “validate” a consecration. All Sister was necessary for was to receive the message from Mary and to faithfully transmit it to the proper recipient. Sister Lucia did that. It was never Sister’s role to do anything beyond that, and Mary did not ask her to do anything else. Popes know how to do a consecration. Is it lost on everyone that the only reason Sister Lucia was brought up after the fact was because of the failure and refusal to do a simple consecration as requested? The instructions were very simple. The problem is that in the execution, when they finally gave up refusing to do any consecration at all for decades, then when they do it, they fudge Mary’s very simple instructions, and then start putting the onus on Sister Lucia to say if it was does properly. Is a cloistered nun an expert on consecrations? This whole thing is a very sad commentary, and not the least on the apologists for the mess who add absurdities after the fact like a requirement that Sister Lucia had to validate the consecration.

  19. Linda Maria says:

    In my above post, I meant to say— “The Blessed Mother is always EXACT”– not “excat,” a misspelling!!

  20. Anne T. says:

    I wear the Miraculous Medal; it is the one approved by the pope at that time. There are some who still say that it is the wrong medal since Our Lady first asked St. Catherine Laboure to make a medal from the vision she had of Our Lady holding the globe. Nevertheless, because of the system for making medals at that time and for other reasons, the pope at that time decided to use the other vision of St. Catherine — the one of Our Lady standing on the globe crushing the serpent. It is said that St. Catherine ask Our Lady if that were alright and she approved. You can read all of that in the book “St. Catherine Laboure of the Miraculous Medal by Fr. Joseph I. Dirwin, C.M.

    I believe the same thing has happened with Fatima. St. Pope John Paul II (remember it was Pope Benedict XVI who canonized him) chose to consecrated Russia along with the bishops in a different way, along with the whole world. Nevertheless, it was reported that Sr. Lucy said it was alright before she died, so for me, Peter has spoken. The consecration was done.

    • By the way, I did the devotions to the Sacred Heart (First Fridays) and the First Saturdays of Our Lady of Fatima in my thirties, which was a long time ago, so I am not knocking the devotions.

  21. Steve Phoenix says:

    Sean asserts that “They [Fr Gruner, the “conspiracy theorists”] say that the Pope’s views and the Vatican documents are not sufficient to certify that a consecration has been done.” He also makes a wide-ranging attack on Fr Gruner, alleging that Sr. Lucia was “nothing like” him or the “conspiracy theorists”.

    First, none of the “official consecrations” have ever mentioned Russia by name: yet this was one part of the specific request of the Blessed Virgin’s message conveyed to the 3 children. Sr. Lucia repeated this issue on many occasions. The fact is that the children — Sr Lucia testified to this—never had even heard of this strange name for a strange land: but as always they stood by this testimony. It was very specific. If this really was Our Lady’s specific request, and everyone posting here claims to “believe in Fatima”, why hasn’t this been done? It is so easy. [Mark Fellows has a well-documented answer in his “Fatima in Twilight”. Apparently none of the erudite commentators here have read it.]

    Sean, Kainz, and the many Fatima and Gruner debunkers distract from the fact that the final apparition, the Miracle of the Sun, Our Lady’s “Last Warning” to everyone occurred Oct. 13th, 2017. Unknown to everyone in Portugal and most of the world, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, and Molotov were fomenting the uprising that finally catalyzed October 25, 2017, “Red October”, the October Revolution: 12 short days later. Coincidence of course. Russia would spread its errors to the world.

    • Steve Phoenix says:

      In all my readings of Sr. Lucia’s many comments and interviews Sr Lucia’s viewpoint and Fr. Gruner’s are almost coincident: as a cloistered Carmelite, she was not privy to the scandalous true conspiracy that hijacked a Council (read Yves Congar’s now public, formerly private, posthumously published journal, “My Journal of the Council). Most Catholics are not — still.

      I am sure that Sean is not aware that the Vatican II’s famous “schemata” —the specific agenda outlined for the Council that were scuttled in the revolt at the first plenary session — were based on responses to pre-council “vota” or interrogatories sent out to all the bishops throughout the world: One of the most important issues raised by the largest group of Catholic bishops — 270 respondents (about one out of 10)—was an official declaration of condemnation of Communism. That could not happen, because there was too much sympathy for “soft-communism”, i.e. socialism, especially among the periti and many of the European cardinals and bishops. Ever heard of Dom Helder Camara: he was a darling of the media and a spokesmouth for many Brave New Bishops at the Council. By the way, now his native Brazil is officially communist—part of Helder Camara’s legacy.

      As for “not accepting the current popes”, this is a complete falsehood: Gruner, if you know anything about him, has faithfully and tirelessly petitioned every pope from Paul VI on to complete a full consecration as called for.

      • Steve Phoenix says:

        The last falsehood about Gruner is that he is “a suspended priest”. This also is not true: what is true is that a mysterious Vatican press release, without any name in Sept 2001 issued a statement that Gruner was “suspensio a divinis”: probably orchestrated by Card. Angelo Sodano, Vatican Secretary of State, a long-time opponent of the Fatima message.

        There was no canonical process at all to allow such a suspension: Gruner had been given an order in 1996 to return to Avellino, Italy (effectively closing the Fatima Center in NY and ending his life’s work), or find a bishop to incardinate him. Gruner did find a bishop, Archbp. S. Arulappa and subsequently, Archbp. Marampudi Joji of Hyderabad, who believe in Fr. Gruner’s work. Sodano then disregarded the incardination, a complete violation of canon law, and pronounced him suspended anyway.

        Just for context, this was the Card. Sodano who pressured then Card. Ratzinger against investigating at least two notorious sex abuse cases —the worst being that of Legionaries of Christ founder, Fr. Marcial Maciel, who plied Sodano with huge amounts of donor money for Sodano’s favorite “charities”. Sodano is now (probably forcibly) retired, but the calumnies against Gruner still stand.

        For those who are fair-minded, this gives perhaps a little more information regarding Fr. Gruner and his allegedly monstrous failings.

  22. Linda Maria says:

    It is all true, that Sr. Lucia seemed to accept the Second Vatican Council and its New Mass, and stated that the bishops’ consecration of Russia was just fine, prior to her death. However– our Church is very “wayward,” and has turned its back on Christ’s holy teachings! Very immoral Church, not very “Catholic,” nor “Christian!” Perhaps what is most important, is for us to be good, practicing Catholics, and to have faith, and obey what Our Lady told us to do. The Church of today, really does need a lot of help, from God! But at least, it is very important for the few good Catholics remaining, to be very steadfast, faithful, and true!!

  23. Linda Maria says:

    I just wrote a post, about Sr. Lucia and what she said– and the fact that we should just try to do the best we can, as good, practicing Catholics, regardless of all this! But I forgot to put my name, so it may appear under “Anonymous!” Too bad!

  24. Linda Maria says:

    Oh– I see, I DID put my name! Good!

  25. Linda Maria says:

    I will say, that I always read the literature sent to me, by all good Church leaders. I also read the literature of Fr. Nicholas Gruner, which I do think is good– I also am so sorry, for the mistreatment of him, by the Church! Poor priest, trying to do good! So many BAD Catholic priests and bishops, do horrible things, and only receive high rewards, from the Church! Also, I attended the excellent Parish Mission at Star of the Sea Church last summer, given by Fr. Paul Nicholson. Regarding Fatima– Sr. Lucia did go along with the Second Vatican Council, and the New Mass. Also, she indicated that the bishops’ consecration of Russia was acceptable. Who is correct? I do not know! There is also much missing information, as Our Lady had many secrets, that she did not want Sr. Lucia to tell the world! All we can do, then, is to listen to Our Lady, and do as she says, as good, faithful practicing Catholics! Anyway– we are not followers of Sr. Lucia, nor Fr. Gruner, nor any particular human Pope, nor any Church Council– essentially, we are simply followers of Christ!! And His Kingdom is NOT of this world, but of the next!

  26. Steve Phoenix says:

    One other point; Fr. Gruner was first approved for ordination in Avellino, Italy by the then-bishop in 1976, and was given written permission to conduct his apostolate. How did Canadian-born Gruner come to Avellino, Italy? During his seminary years, Fr Gruner had encountered the disastrous state of post-Vatican II theology (a fact that should not be “controversial” to admit now) in first, Canada, and then the US; that is how he came in contact with the Avellino diocese in the first place.

    It was only after years of promoting the message of prayer and penance of Fatima and petitioning bishops around the world to ask the JP2 to conduct a worldwide consecration of Russia as Our Lady had requested, that Gruner encountered the many enemies of Fatima who frankly don’t believe any of it, who don’t even believe that Our Lady could or would ever appear to warn the human race. (Gruner wasn’t alone: Sr. Lucia was attacked ceaselessly for years by Belgian Jesuit Fr. Edouard Dhanis (d. 1978), a Louvain professor who considered Sr. Lucia insane and a fake.) You will see this Kainz-like pattern that people who believe in Our Lady’s message at Fatima are usually dismissed as conspiratorial crazy people. Not even Sr. Lucia herself was spared.

    It was at this time, in the 1990’s that Bp. Antonio Forte of Avellino himself warned Gruner that Forte would be forced to suspend him by the Vatican Congregation for Clergy.

  27. A few years, I met Father Nickolson, and he personally informed me that he was very impressed with Father Gruner, and that he admired all that the Fatima Center was doing. It seems Father Nickolson has had a change of heart because now he is bashing Father Gruner and the Society of St. Pius X. I guess in order to be in good standing with his superiors, he has become politically correct, and totes the party line.

  28. Too much speculation regarding “Fatima and the CONSPIRACY THEORIES”.

    I for one am not a fan of speculation. Way too many personal opinions, way too much hearsay.

    If you can’t prove it, don’t post it.
    Provide links to OFFICIAL Documentation from the Vatican web site.

    If they can not prove it, don’t believe it. It is a total waste of time and energy.

    • Amen ! Way too much superstition – regarding Fatima after effects. It would make the Blessed Mother very sad.
      Superstition and rumors and hearsay is not going to help anyone get to Heaven.
      It is a waste of time and effort. If you can not prove it, don’t post it.

      Btw – ” 2138 Superstition is a departure from the worship that we give to the true God. It is manifested in idolatry, as well as in various forms of divination and magic.”

      • Pete Green says:

        What superstition? If Mary is upset about anything, let’s start with the basics – Why was the consecration not even pursued for decades, and then why was Russia not mentioned by name? Again, WHY? It’s not up to the faithful to prove anything. There has been a serious, serious problem here and evidence of that problem does not derive from superstition. Rather, the problem is clearly manifested by the failure of certain responsible persons within the Church to do as Our Lady requested. Don’t shift blame to the faithful for inquiring about a bungling that even the Church admits implicitly by its own actions in not doing the consecration for decades, then doing it insufficiently, then re-doing it, maybe, but who knows. Give me a break.

        • Anonymous says:

          What good does a bunch of post-mortems on why things didn’t happen do? Just do as our Lady asks you to do. Pray the Rosary daily. Make sacrifices for sinners. Obey the Church.

          • Abeca Christian says:

            Anonymous I agree….dwelling on things in which we hold no power over is useless and a waste of time for our spiritual growth, its OK to reflect and apply them in our own life, to learn from it and how mankind tends to disobey often but to dwell and bicker over them and they can sometimes also bring forth theories that are away from God. The devil loves to distract people often.

            We must meditate on Jesus words often, He is our life and reason for living. He loves us so much. No one loves us as much as He does. Blessed Virgin Mary is an example of His love for us, that He gave us His mother. That should make women be grateful, He chose a beautiful woman, an instrument of His love. We woman should never ever feel any less even if some men disobey and mistreat women.

          • Carlos Alomar says:

            Apparently you don’t care, but the good that it does is that it might just cause the consecration of Russia to be accomplished in the way it was requested. There’s no disobedience here. Pray the Rosary daily, and make sacrifices for sinners – those tenets were well in place long before Fatima.

          • Pete Green says:

            Hillary, please, this is not Benghazi. After all the ridiculous defenses and explanations are refuted, you don’t just get to say “What difference does it make?” We need people with the intellectual and moral stamina to see this through and hope, pray and advocate for the proper consecration of Russia as Our Lady requested.

          • Ann Malley says:

            …if all you can do is dwell without understanding, and that lack of comprehension disturbs your peace, then by all means, do not dwell. Get to the business of what *you* are equipped to do for the benefit of *your* spiritual life. But do not negate the necessary aspects of the vigilance of others, Abeca. Not all parts of the Mystical Body are as distraught as others when it comes to being focused and analyzing that which deserves our close attention and absolute adherence. After all, you stated:

            “Blessed Virgin Mary is an example of His love for us, that He gave us His mother.”

            Yes, indeed, Our Lord gave us His Mother which is precisely why increasing numbers (especially during our ongoing times of crisis) are inclined to pay precise attention to what She said and do what is necessary – even if others ‘feel’ helpless – to see that Her desires are accomplished to the letter. (Even if men perhaps behave badly or, at the very least, fall short of what our Dear Mother has requested for our spiritual benefit.)

            If anything, that desire and attempt to achieve complete and thorough obedience to Our Lady could be considered the height of the Imitation of Christ. To do any less regarding a pointed request of Our Blessed Mother would surely be an insult to Christ’s great gift to us – rather disgraceful considering matters were handled in a rather sloppy, good enough sort of way.

  29. I watched the Fr. Paul Nicholson YouTube and found it inappropriate and unbecoming as a priest in his attacks against Fr. Gruner, even if Fr. Nicholson thinks he has all of his facts straight, which I personally don’t believe. I’m glad I didn’t take the time to attend his Star of the Sea parish mission if that’s what it was.

    This issue seems so simple to me. Do people HONESTLY think Russia has experienced a massive conversion? Sure, conditions may be better there now for Christianity, but I’m not seeing evidence of the massive miraculous conversion. If people have real verifiable evidence to the contrary, I’d love to see it.

    If you agree with me that there has been no miraculous conversion of Russia, then it seems there are only four possibilities:
    1) The apparition at Fatima is not authentic and the Church has erred by declaring it so and thus also is generally liable to errors in such matters;
    2) Our Lady has delayed the conversion, costing souls and sowing confusion about the connection between the apparition and the conversion of Russia;
    3) The apparition is authentic but Our Lady was lying or the children were lying;
    4) Russia has not been properly consecrated.

    To me, the answer is obvious. Why would be it be so difficult to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart by name not just once but EVERY DAY? Does the hierarchy not believe in prayer any more? Or do they just not care about Russia?

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