That’s not what Pope Francis said

Catholics support gay marriage as much as general population and believe the pope has backed It, study finds
Photo: Michael Short / Michael Short / Special To The Chronicle

Students protest Archbishop Cordileone’s morality clause, holding signs that say “@Potifex [PopeFrancis’s twitter name] pray for us”, and “#teachacceptance”. Photo: Michael Short / Michael Short / Special To The Chronicle

The following is from an August 27 Christian Post article by Stoyan Zaimov:

A study by the Public Religion Research Institute released in August on the beliefs of American Catholics has found that despite the Church’s teachings, they support same-sex marriage and abortion just as much as the general population. What is more, a large percentage of Catholic respondents mistakenly believed Pope Francis has backed gay marriage.

A profile on American Catholics shared by Public Religion Research Institute noted that they make up roughly one in five, or 22 percent of all American adults, with 59 percent of Catholics categorized as white non-Hispanic, while 34 percent identifying as Hispanic.

When asked about whether gay and lesbian couples should have the legal right to marry, 60 percent of all U.S. Catholics said that they are in favor – compared to 55 percent of all Americans.

Similarly, 51 percent of Catholics said that abortion should be legal in all or most cases — with 53 percent of the general population saying the same.

While American Catholic views of Pope Francis remained favorable, they also revealed great confusion about where he stands on issues such as gay marriage. As many as 49 percent of Catholics who backed gay marriage also believed that the pontiff has backed the practice, and even 15 percent of those opposed to same-sex marriage believed the same.

The survey, which was based on a total sample of 1,331 interviews conducted between Aug. 5-11, noted that there was a deep partisan divide on issues, with roughly one-third of Republican Catholics supporting abortion in all or most cases, compared to nearly two-thirds of Democratic Catholics saying the same.

Pope Francis has spoken out both in favor of the Catholic definition of marriage and its views of life, though an ongoing petition from the conservative Tradition Family Property Student Action has called on the pontiff to clarify the “widespread confusion” in society over the Catholic stance on hot-button issues.

To add a comment, click on Facebook, Twitter, Google+ icons OR go further down to the bottom of comments to the Post your comment box.

Comments

  1. Pope Francis must proclaim the truth with clarity and vigor! Jesus was direct and to the point, and some people walked away, just as they do today. He still spoke out and taught those willing to listen. Yes, people twist truth, but we must speak and live by it anyway.

    God calls us not to be successful, but to be faithful.

    • Elizabeth M says:

      But if he doesn’t clarify things could it mean that he agrees with all this? Not to correct means that you agree.

    • Kristen, sometimes Jesus used parables whose meaning had to be explained to the apostles.

      • Tracy, please – clearly this Pope has not demonstrated that level of sophistication. His comments appear to be off the cuff and reflect personal opinion and preferences. As leader of the Church, his words matter and must be carefully crafted. He does not have to submit to interviews, and he does not have to share his personal thoughts. In his case, less is more.

    • I haven’t read anything the Pope said that supports same sex marriage. Please provide quotes so that we can better informed.

      • The defining moment of Pope Francisco’s pontificate was “Who am I to Judge”. In the sane sentence he was the first Pope ever to refer of homosexuals as Gays. He was referring to Mgr. Ricca, who manages Domus Sanctae Martae where the Pope lives in air conditioned comfort. Ricca was also the Papal delegate to the Vatican Bank, perhaps still is. This gay had placed his Swiss lover under the payroll of the Nunciature in Montevideo, Uruguay when he was in charge so Pope Francisco must know the story very well from Buenos Aires as there was a huge South American scandal. So if he cannot judge a prelate that has maladministered the purse and good name of the Church, it is logical for the common faithful to think the Pope stands on the side of…

  2. Oh good grief….. The holy father doesn’t support gay marriage, He does support not obsessing about us and for the homophbes to get their foot off our necks and hands out of our pockets respect our families and love us as Jesus loved them. Somehow I can’t see Francis being to impressed with an outfit called Tradition, Family and PROPERTY.

    • C&H obsessing…yes I guess you could call it that because your crowd now has huge political clout and targets those who reject their view of making homosexuality normal. And it is gay power who are suing and shutting down businesses that don’t bow down to their political views, it is gay power groups getting people fired for not agreeing with gay marriage (saw this one myself) And guess what many of us Faithful Catholics are not impressed with Pope Francis, in fact we see damage he is and has caused. but “who am I to judge”…. Remember this C&H every single civilization that accepted homosexuality as normal soon crumbled.. we will be no exception .

    • hosemonkey says:

      On the contrary, with 60% of U.S. Catholics supporting “gay Marriage” I hardly see that as anyone “having a foot on your necks”. Rather we are constantly burdened by your whining about your “rights” and your constant efforts to gain acceptance for your perverted “lifestyle” in our schools and in our society. 60% of Catholics having acceptance of homosexual perversion is a sad commentary on the state of our Church and of our society as a whole.

      • I do not think they have accepted it. Remember, Hose Monkey, most young people are always more liberal when they are younger because they do not know the consequences of bad behavior. Their brains are not that developed. Later when they see the horrible and costly effects of it, the wise ones finally grow up. Some sooner, some later, some never (or too late).

        Recently, a priest mentioned on a blog how a young man he knew went with his friend to a LBGT parade, but when he saw what it actually was, he fled out of there. I doubt that friendship lasts. How can it? What do the children of darkness have to do with the children of light The older ones who know better are are the ones most culpable and will receive the worst punishment.

        • Your Fellow Catholic says:

          Bad news for your side Anne T.: If you look at the internal numbers of the polls that show increasing support for marriage equality you will see that support has grown among every population group. It’s true that the young overwhelmingly support it at the older you are the less you do, but if you track it over time you see that even the 80 year olds support it much more than they did as recently as Prop 8, and much much more than 15 years ago.

          • Ann Malley says:

            You advertise yourself as a fellow Catholic, YFC. So how do you say to Anne T., bad news for your ‘side’?

            The more you post, the more it is clear you are on the side of those who would pervert the youth to be on the opposite side of Christ and Holy Mother Church. And we all know what Christ said about those who scandalize the little ones.

          • Actually the really bad news is for your side. As you continue to defy the laws of Logos you will eventually come to know His wrath in a personal way.

          • Exactly, Anne Malley and Canisius. The bad news is always for the person committing the sin. They are the ones who will pay the consequences for their own actions — AIDES, Herpes, anal and colon cancer and so on and so forth. As the Rev. Billy Graham once said, “No one breaks the Commandments; they only break themselves upon them.”

          • Ann Malley says:

            ….in teaching catechism to my pupils, I always present the 10 Commandments as the ultimate act of God’s mercy. That is, God Our Father giving us fair warning about how reality works. He could have quite easily left us to our blindness, but He didn’t out of love.

            Thank you, Anne T, for sharing that Billy Graham quote. It is true.

      • HM and Canusis …. In thirty some odd US states (not CA, thank God) a person can be fired without recourse just for being gay or being thought to be gay. Then there’s the countries where we can be executed just for being gay. Is that enough for you to see my point?

        • You got it backwards. People are getting fired for not being homosexual.

          • Your Fellow Catholic says:

            Ski Ven, if you have statistics showing that straight people are being fired for being straight, can we please see them?

            In the meantime, if you really believe that straight people are being fired for being straight, then you should support the Employment Non Discrimination Act, because it protects people from being fired on the basis of their sexual orientation: Whatever that sexual orientation is.

          • I don’t need statistics to know that a guy lost his place as the CEO of Mozilla because he believes that a man should marry a woman. I don’t need statistics to know that Chick-Fil-A came under attack because the owner believes that a man should marry a woman. I don’t need statistics to know that a bakery was shut down because the owner believes that a man should marry a woman. I don’t need statistics to know that a photographer’s business was attacked because she believes that a man should marry a woman. It is called keeping up with events. Only a denier would deny that these things are taking place. These events have become the new normal. Stop lying and denying.

          • Catherine says:

            “Stop lying and denying”

            A truthful rhyme for all seasons!

            Excellent, Ski Ven. Your post is certainly worthy of the word, “Bravo”!

            Faithful Catholics also don’t need statistics to believe what Our Lady of Fatima said.

            “More souls go to hell for sins of the flesh than for any other reason.”

          • Anonymous says:

            You are mixing up facts and the issues around them. The Mozilla CEO was not fired, he resigned. (I happen to think he should not have…)

            All the rest of the issues do not revolve around whether someone was fired or fined or whatever because they are straight, as you first alleged. Or even because they believe that marriage is between one man and one woman. But because they refused SERVICE to people, which you can’t do if you want to be a public accommodation.

          • Mr. Anonymous denier, you are the one who is mixing up issues. Photographers whose religious beliefs do not allow them to celebrate any union besides that of a man and a woman were fined because they did not want to participate in a ceremony for a homosexual union. Bakers who believe that a man should marry a woman were crushed by an authoritarian government because they did not want to bake a cake that promotes a different kind of union that is offensive to their religious beliefs. These cases are becoming increasingly common. This is not just about public accommodations like you claim. This is about forced participation in homosexual activities. You don’t have the right to force me to participate in a homosexual activity.

          • Catherine, they keep on trying with all their disgusting lying.

          • They didn’t want to serve gays. That is why they were fined. They were not fined because they were straight.

            If you don’t serve black people, you get fined. You don’t get fined because you are white.

            Get it?

          • Mr. Anonymous denier, Not too long ago a business refused to bake a cake that is decorated with the confederate flag because they found the confederate flag to be offensive. No government body came along and fined them for discrimination against Southerners. Back in April, a bakery in Colorado refused to bake a cake that contained bible verses. The bakery found the bible verses to be offensive. The bakery was not fined for discrimination against Christians. Chick-fil-A serves homosexual customers but they were attacked anyhow. This is not just about refusing to serve homosexuals as you claim. This is about being forced to promote something that you find offensive and you know it.

          • Ski Ven – you cite no sources and you still compare apples and oranges. Refusing to offer a product (a cake with a confederate flag, a cake with a swastika, a cake with a bible verse, a pork cake) and failing to serve a person (a gay person, a confederate, a communist, a Christian, a Jew) are different things.

            The PERSONS being served were not bible verses and confederate flags. And government officials don’t happen upon these situations and file complaints, PEOPLE who were aggrieved file those complaints. Did the bible verses and the confederate flag file a complaint? No, I didn’t think so.

          • Mr. Denier, The persons who wanted a cake with Bible verses did file a compliant. They were turned down. In one case a baker can be forced by the government to bake a cake that shows a man marrying a man even though the baker finds that offensive. In another case a baker can refuse to bake a cake containing bible verses because the baker finds that offensive. In both cases the person who believes that a man should marry a woman lost. Whether comparing the two cases amounts to comparing apples to oranges, I will leave to the reader to decide.

            http://www.christianpost.com/news/bakeries-can-refuse-bible-verses-but-not-gay-weddings-colorado-decides-136971/

          • Again Ski Ven, even in your cute little christianpost article, the bakery in question refused to make a product they don’t make. They were not refusing to serve the PERSON. A company cannot be forced to produce a PRODUCT, but if they are a public accommodation, in most states, they have to serve all PEOPLE. Do you understand the difference between a PERSON and a PRODUCT?

          • Mr. Denier, I read the article again and did not see anything about the pro-homosexual bakery not making certain kinds of products. That is your spin. Even if what you said is true, Christian bakers are being forced by the government to make a product that they don’t make. A cake promoting homosexual marriage is a product. You also lied about another thing. Jack Phillips was willing make other baked items for the homosexual couple. He was willing to serve them. He did not make a product for them that he does not make for anyone else, either. That is not discrimination against homosexuals. What is so special about homosexuals that they should have more rights than everyone else?

        • Hosemonkey says:

          In most states you can be fired without reason anyway. Unfortunately, in California, the homo lobby has gained “protected species” status for homosexuals.

          • HM …. Here in CA and other states you can’t fire someone because of race, age, national origin, sexual orientation or ….religion. Keep in mind that in some parts of the country, communities are dominated by Protestant fundamentalists who think we worship the anti-Christ.

          • People who push so-called same-sex marriage ARE worshipping the anti Christ, and when they claim to be Catholic, they make real Catholics look bad.

        • C&H if you continue to defy the Logos then death will be your destiny one way or another

    • And if he’s not, that speaks volumes. The right to own property derives from the right to life. And it’s affirmed by the command, Thou Shalt Not Steal.

    • Ann Malley says:

      …the Holy Father seems to favor picking his battles.

      I pray he chooses the right one when he comes to speak in the United States, not the least controversial as judged by what the world itches to hear.

    • Thomas Lewis says:

      Oh Good Grief, the pope has been a complete jerk when it comes to speaking the truth, rather than speaking how he feels. Get off the “I know the pope didn’t say that” speech. Yes he continues to say the Wrong things, and you keep believing that he didn’t. Whose the bigger fool?

  3. Pope Francis backed gay civil unions when he was a cardinal. Both gay civil unions and gay marriages support acts which are intrinsically disordered and gravely depraved.

  4. This is what happens when Diocese Bishops and Parish Priests do not encourage Catholic Laity to read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition” of 1997 (dark green cover in USA).
    People do not know their Faith, and do not know the reasons why.
    It’s all contained in the CCC.

    “What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE”
    http://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com/

  5. Clarity is Charity. That the Holy Father’s statements can be used to support both sides and his appointments are a real problem in proclaiming the the truth’s of the faith. For the sake of Charity we must pray that Pope Francis finds that clear voice to proclaim God’s truths in an unambiguous voice.

  6. Homophobe is an argument fallacy of the straw man: invent something, demonize it, and knock it down. Faithful Catholics never can accept homosexual behavior, but can love all people into chastity and into a real family of one man and one woman in sacramental marriage open to life, be it the one into which a person is born, or one which he and she create in God. It would help if the Holy Father would clearly speak the church’s teaching.

    • Anonymous says:

      God didn’t say to love people into sinlessness. He told you to love you neighbor. He didn’t say anything about using love to manipulate people into obeying God. Some of the people you love will remain in their sin. Love them anyway.
      There are people who are homophobic. I know some. They are never rude to gays or lesbians but they are creeped out by them.

      • Ann Malley says:

        …you love people to show them demonstrably how to truly come to love themselves and others as God intended, Anonymous. That’s no more manipulation than what Christ exercised toward us.

        • Anonymous says:

          Christ died for us. Christ hung out with sinners for 33 years on this earth and for almost 2000 years in the Blessed Sacrament. He allows people to make their choices. When people choose to try to please Him, they change.

    • Your Fellow Catholic says:

      Father Perozich, for the vast majority of gay people, you can’t love them into a sexual orientation that would make them happy in a straight marriage, and it would be a very foolish thing for someone to marry someone who was ex-gay. If you’d like some examples of people who thought they had been loved into being straight but ended up realizing the futiity, I’d be happy to provide. In fact, many of the leaders of ex-gay groups fall into this category.

      • Chastity is accepting oneself as man or woman oriented toward the complementary sex regardless of feelings. For some the feelings that accompany this never develop. They are called, as is everyone, to live chaste refraining from sexual acts outside the sacramental marriage bond of man and woman. Loving deep friendships are possible and encouraged.

        • Your Fellow Catholic says:

          It is possible I misunderstood you Father. I thought you were saying that gay people can be loved into becoming straight and marrying people of the opposite sex. A lot of people actually DO believe that, and I may have misinterpreted your post that you were one of them.

          • YFC always ready to attack Faithful clerics with his defense of sodomy at all costs

          • Ann Malley says:

            Father was very clear, YFC. That said, one should be taught to love oneself and others to the point of desiring their salvation first and foremost – not to indulge in disordered sexual relations.

            Continence and chastity ARE entirely possible. Our Lord did say that ALL things are possible with God, that is with His grace. A lot of people, many Catholics, are sadly led down the path of believing that is NOT possible. That is a negation of Christ’s grace and His ultimate sacrificial love – the kind of love we are called to imitate.

      • YFC, “chastity” has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
        Nor should anyone encourage someone with the SSA disorder to marry anyone of either sex.
        Chastity is required for ALL – according to their vocation in life.
        More than 50% of the population is NOT MARRIED – single (including Priests). Single people must refrain from sexual activity completely – this is their chastity.
        Fornication and Homosexual Acts are mortal sins.

      • YFC is right. Getting businesses shut down, causing business owners to lose all their property, getting people fired, vandalism, and death threats all coming from homosexuals demonstrate that homosexuals are like the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. God did the only thing that could be done with them.

  7. Mike Dross says:

    I don’t believe that this is an accurate depiction of the real numbers. How many of you honestly believe that a third of Catholic Republicans support abortion in all or most cases? This is the only survey I have seen to make such a claim.

  8. Small problem with the study: Once those being polled are asked if they support abortion and same sex marriage they are no longer Catholic! Take them off the list!

    • Well said, Alice. Such irony is lost on this secular pollster and the woundedsouls driven by their merciless master who rules them with their sensuous addictions…not to mention the weak and misguided individuals who support them. Unfortunately for those so ruled, there are no polls in hell nor has any escaped to offer an opinion…and the word of God just isn’t good enough for them, apparently. Such an array of excuses and sel-vindication they provide makes one want to pop some corn, sit back and let them have at it.

  9. When Pope Francis made his famous, and ultimately sensible comment, “who am I to judge?” he was speaking in a biblical way.
    First, beccause this is what we read in Jesus’ own words: don’t judge your brother!
    Second, because the Holy Father was not talking about saying it’s okay for some monsignor to be involved in orgies and the like, but rather he was addressing a very speicific issue: if monsignor knows he is a homosexual in his heart, but is trying his very best to lead a holy, good, and celibate life, who is anyone to judge the man?
    People always leave out this second part (holy, good, celibate), as if the Vicar of Christ had been condoning immoral behavior, whereas, in fact, he had been commending people who struggle to be…

    • Ann Malley says:

      ….one is called by Christ to judge with right judgment, Susan. That is why clarity or at the very least perspicacity as to how things will flower would be advisable. The speak off the cuff style of Francis is not the way of previous popes for valid reasons… and the shedding of perceived constraints is not always advisable.

      So while we blame ‘people’ for always leaving off this qualifiers, the buck stops with the speaker who leaves himself wide open on a regular basis.

      • Anonymous says:

        I think Susan has judged with right judgement here.

        • Ann Malley says:

          ….ah, but is it with Catholic judgement? That’s the question.

          • Anonymous says:

            Yes.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Catholics, especially those whose duty it is to teach, are called to speak clearly, Anonymous. To speak ambiguously in such instances is to leave oneself open to misinterpretation – and that is not the method of a teacher who understands his/her primary duty.

            Unfortunately, many men and women fail to leave their particular style by the wayside, even when humility would demand they conform to the job to which they are called. That is often what goes wrong even within the context of the family unit.

          • Anonymous says:

            There was nothing ambiguous about it. Your opinion is your opinion. Your judgement is your judgement. You judge from where you are at. Which is a place of antagonism to the Church and the Pope and faithful Catholics. You can change or you cannot. It’s your choice and not my business.

          • Ann Malley says:

            I cannot change your misguided premise of where I’m coming from, Anonymous. You are fixed in your beliefs. But that too is your choice and opinion, not a clear reflection of Catholic Faith.

          • Excuse me if I mischaracterized or misunderstood your posts. Are you saying you are in 100% conformity with the Church, the Pope and faithful Catholics?

          • Ann Malley says:

            ….what I am saying, Anonymous, is that you highlight your lack of education and true faithfulness when you attempt to play magisterium. Your focus on 100% conformity is precisely what leaves you set on one tree to the negation and burning of the forest.

            That is not Catholic teaching, friend, or Faith.

          • Ann Malley, let’s not pretend. there are 3 years of posts from you which are antagonistic to the Pope, to the Church and to the faithful Catholics who post here. I think it is you who is trying to play magisterium.

      • Steve Phoenix says:

        This is the Supreme Teacher of the Faith–P. Francis, in case there was any confusion—and the chance to teach Catholic doctrine at the time when he was asked about homosexual clergy was a historic opportunity and an outstanding one (July 29, 2013 interview on return flight from Brazil). It turned out to be a missed opportunity, and a defining moment of his pontificate. Negatively so. And don’t edit his comments to make them Gospel-oriented. He never made reference to the Gospel at all.

        It was a missed opportunity as history has shown it, because this pontiff fled from defending the Catholic teaching and his role as Supreme Teacher. So, my question is, why did he accept becoming pontiff? To be another putative socialist world…

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          So why did he become pontiff? To become another putative socialist world leader? They’re a dime a dozen. It doesn’t make any sense, and he doesn’t make any sense.

          And the Francis effect? That the Catholic Faith now no longer makes any sense. Well done, good and faithful servant!

          • Anonymous says:

            He became Pontiff because it was will by the Lord.

          • That is not true, anon. He was elected by mere mortals; some praying for guidance from the Holy Spirit, some with deliberate sly plots of their own, some led by informed ideas to choose a pope closest to Church ideals, etc. Never forget that the will of God can be thwarted through human weakness. Our first prayer, like our precious Lord’s, should be “Thy kingdom come, They will be done…” Too often we pray that our will be done and when our prayers “aren’t answered” we blame God for not listening or caring. This pope could just as easily have been allowed as the pope of our chastisement.

          • …THY will be done.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Well said, Dana. But even at that, God does give us what we ask for in prayer. And if our prayer is directed toward what ‘we’ will despite what we know He requires in charity, He often grants us the punishment that is our due. Bad leadership is all part of that to be sure.

            Too many have been falsely led to believe that being Catholic means having a sure-fire ticket to never having to think about what the Faith demands. Just press go and close your eyes till you reach nirvana.

            Thank goodness we have our own Catholic patrimony, the warnings in the Gospel, and God’s unwavering promises to uphold us in such times.

          • Anonymous says:

            So YOU don’t like the Pope, so his papacy was not willed by God?
            Got narcissism?

          • Anonymous says:

            Ann Malley, your image of God and of people is sooooooo wrong.
            God is love.
            God punishes SIN. .

          • Anonymous says:

            The pope of our chatisement?
            I’m afraid to ask but here goes:
            What does that mean and where did you learn it?

          • Ann Malley says:

            You’ve got ill informed all to yourself, Anonymous. Wherever your information comes from it is most assuredly not the Catholic Church. But God bless you just the same 🙂

          • I admit I am completely ill informed on this pope of our chastisement. And no I never heard of it in the Catholic Church.
            What does it mean and where did you learn it?

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            “So YOU don’t like the Pope, so his papacy was not willed by God?
            Got narcissism?” (Anonymous Group, Aug. 31, 2015, 10:30 AM)
            Right away, instead of looking at facts, The Anonymous Group personalizes an attack—similar by the way to the response of Pope Francis, who personalized the matter (“Who am I to judge?”), instead of performing his role as sovereign Pontiff.

            Objective evaluation of objective acts is what the Supreme Teacher of the Faith, The Magister of the Magisterium, should do. Otherwise, this whole “Magisterium” business is a lot of nonsense, if not even he will teach “in season and out” (S Paul’s role for a bishop to Timothy, 2 Tm 4:2). He had the opportunity to teach objectively that homosexual acts are…

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            …are objectively wrong, and to also positively teach all Catholics once again about chastity. Instead, he ran away: Quo vadis, Bergoglio?

      • Anonymous says:

        Dana, Job 42:2

        • So many anonymouses that keep growing like hippopotymouses 😉 well, to the one who accused me of not liking the pope, I would say it has nothing to do with liking. He causes me untold grief and distress. How that is narcissistic I’m quite at a loss. Perhaps you’re confusing the word with narcicisus, the love little daffodil that blooms in April. The other of the ever growing anonymous crowd…The Job verse is lovely but a total digression from the point I was making. Frankly, at some point this website might have to enforce some sort of name requirement.. What kind of person prefers to be anonymous, anyway?

          • Ann Malley says:

            “…What kind of person prefers to be anonymous, anyway?”

            …typically those who like to move freely and cause dissension where they will.

            God bless you, Dana, and God bless those who erroneously believe that the Faith is a matter of feelings. And whatever illusion they’ve been lead to swallow.

          • Since you’re afraid to ask, anonymous ad infinitum, I wouldn’t want to terrorize you with an answer. May God bless you. As Jesus told us, fear not. If you’re afraid to use your name I’m a dab hand at naming things. I’ll call you Henny Penny

          • Thank you Ann! I always love it when someone says God bless you, even if it’s when I sneeze. 🙂 If Henny Penny doesn’t like that name there’s so many more to choose from…chicken little, goosey Lucy, chuckey rooster….even initials are good…LIB. (Short for ‘well, I’ll be’)
            HRH, BZB, AAA, et al. Sorry, I felt the need for some comic relief but I let myself down.

          • Anonymous says:

            Dana, i’ll overlook how you treat your neighbor. I want to tell you that I am sincerely concerned about what you may have fallen into. A Traditional Latin Mass does not use intinction when the host is distributed. and a phrase like “pope of our chastisement” can’t be coming from a good place.

          • The Pope causes you untold grief and distress? Pope Francis? Why?

          • Dana, you said and your point was that the Will of God can be thwarted by humans. The Bible says it can’t be.

          • Anon,you question sounds like you’re a Calvinist or Muslim…that we don’t have free will or that whatever happens is willed by God. Why pray then. What would be the point? As Catholics, we are taught that though God knows everything, He gives us the ability to choose good or evil. It is a mystery but to say that everything that happens is willed by God means we’re just programmed robots.

          • I would ask you why you’re not but I’m not terribly interested. 😉 My father was strong on his convictions and in changeable in his beliefs. His yea meant yes and his nay meant no. My school teachers, principals, and pastors were just the same, as were presidents Truman and Eisenhower. It’s what I expect of all great leaders …and Pope Benedict XVI Emeritus was the greatest example of what I understand. I don’t know this pope.. I don’t understand him and I don’t know what to expect. I’m a creature of my age, I suppose.

          • Ann Malley says:

            God desires the salvation of all men, Anonymous, but allows us the gift of free will. That means humans can and do flout His will. Otherwise there would be no sin. But perhaps that is what you’re attempting to induce people to believe, that nobody can sin because ‘everything’ is the will of God. Think again, my friend.

          • I’m sorry if I was rude saying I wasn’t interested in hearing your views on the pope. It’s just I find myself really annoyed talking about such truly personal thoughts to someone who remains anonymous. You snow who you are but for those of us reading your posts you could be any of the many anonymous posters here. The Latin Mass I attend is at a large diocesan church faithful to Rome. I’m sure that all is done in accordance with the bishop’s full approval. Please do what I did and look up Intincture/Latin Mass…the Rubrics are at the bishop’s discretion. Thank you fur concern, truly. I have a very serious illness which too often causes irritability. Couple that with a sharp tongue and ta dah!

          • I may be your friend but you definitely are not mine.
            Why would you do that to someone?

          • Dana. I did not answer because you said you didn’t care. It was rude but it was honest. I am relieved that you attend a diocesan Mass. I was worried not just because of the Communion but because I know there are traditionalist priests in Ohio (which I think is where you live) who Marcel Lefebvre expelled from the SSPX and just continued on into greater error. In other places there are traditionalists who teach that they are one of 5 validly consecrated priests in the whole world. I was just worried that you might have fallen into one of those things. I am very sorry that you are sick. I will pray for you.

          • Ann Malley says:

            Dana, I had no idea you were ill. You have my prayers and THANKS for posting as you do – humor especially. Good grief, but we need it!

            God bless 🙂

            And Anonymous, your understanding of friendship is also skewed, especially as you ascribe the moniker to yourself and not to others. In fact, you’re given the opportunity to demonstrate true virtue with every encounter and for that, you should thank me.

          • Thanks Ann, my friend. I’m sure if someone is reading our posts for the first time they’re scratching their head and saying “Who are these people?” haha How anyone can claim to be Christian and tell someone they’re not your friend is beyond me. We’re called to love one another (but we don’t have to agree with them or even approve of them. heh)

          • Dana, one of the most prominent criticisms of the Church and the Pope is that we and he talk Jesus but do not live like him. This Pope lives like him more than any other. Pope Francis has done nothing that is contrary to Scripture or Tradition. I know there is a criticism from some here that he should be able to anticipate the way the media will manipulate what he says but even such persons as Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius Schneider has said that he has not done anything contrary to Church Teaching. He is a good Pope. He says he will not be here much longer anyway. The only thing he has done that has added to the Church’s teaching is to say that Christians have a duty to care for the physical environment, which to be honest…

          • which is not new. Pope Benedict was called the “green Pope” because of his teachings on the environment. We were taught this back in the days of Pope Paul VI.

          • …anytime, Dana. God bless and thanks for being my friend, too, and in the truest sense 🙂

          • Ann malley, would you call someone a friend who lies about you?

          • Dana and Ann, I am sorry if the friend comment was mean. Calling me a Calvinist or making up negative things that I must be thinking or being is mean, too. Some of the meanest people I know have no idea that they are mean because of how they were raised. One woman I know who gossips and back bites was raised in a home where you could say anything behind someone’s back but you had to be nice to their face. Another was raised in a home where people were expected to overlook verbal abuse. If they stood up to it, they were criticized or even punished. Some people want to be mean. Mean is humorous to some people. Sorry if I was mean.

          • Another person I know was raised in a home where, among other things, the parents would praise or reward the kids who didn’t do what made them mad. So if the girl was the last kid in the car to go out, everybody else would get a treat but them.
            Praising people who just wrote something mean to another person is a really passive aggressive way of being mean and it is done frequently on CCD by many people.

          • My sincere thanks Ann and Anon. for your prayers. I pray for all of you, as well. It’s been truly a journey being an Alpha1 and as I have to rely on God more and more it’s very humbling as I always ‘prided’ myself on my independence…less me, more of Thee. Anonymous, I didn’t know about the ‘rogue’ priests, but I’m glad I have access to a really beautiful and vital Church…it’s a long drive so I have to attend my own parish, too

          • . I’m sorry, other anonymous…I will really try to be kinder. My family are all so sweet. so don’t blame them! 🙂 . I’m sure you’re not a Calvinist! Just remember, muslims believe everything that happens is willed by Allah, who they believe is completely unknowable and unpredicable. Remember how Abraham was given the chance to save Sodom if the angels could find even one good person? God listens and answers our prayers…we can change His mind.

          • Ann Malley says:

            ….and for your prayers. I NEED THEM!

            God bless 🙂

  10. John Feeney says:

    The Catholic Church didn’t have this problem in 1959.

    • Abeca Christian says:

      They had other problems that contributed to today’s crisis. Also they didn’t have the internet, cell phones, Facebook nor other modern day stuff either….Issues travel at a much larger scale now because of modern day conveniences. Not all are used for good and surly, the story tellers have more air time than the good ole simple days did where innocence wasn’t lost. The decline of morality started way before 1959….from what I read…granted I wasn’t born during those times

      • Steve Phoenix says:

        “They ([the Catholic Church in 1959] had other problems that contributed to today’s crisis.” Now here is the problem with the this idea, if it is that “all the disaster that has afflicted the Catholic Church in the last 56 years would have happened anyway:”

        P John XXIII called the Council at a time when the Church was thriving: not because of any weakness in the Church, but because of the materialism and moral failure of the secular world: read his convocation speech (“Humanae Saluti, Dec. 25, 1961). In fact, he cited the vitality of the present Church in 1961. at a moment in which the Church finds very alive the desire to fortify its faith, and to contemplate itself in its own awe- inspiring unity.at a moment in which the…

        • Steve Phoenix says:

          (“Humanae Saluti, Dec. 25, 1961).,,.at a moment in which the Church finds very alive the desire to fortify its faith, and to contemplate itself in its own awe- inspiring unity.”

          P. John XXIII’s purpose therefore was to spread the “vitality of the present Church” to the world afflicted by materialism and atheism, as he states. But it is a complete falsehood to maintain “[the Church] had other problems that contributed to the present crisis.” The problems were OUTSIDE the Church: the confusion of Vatican II undeniably brought them INSIDE it. To maintain otherwise is an almost psychotic denial of reality, and denies what John XXIII himself acknowledged and stated.

          • Steve Phoenix says:

            This is the illogical and self-contradictory madness that states, “Well, even if we didn’t have the Council, everything would have happened anyway.” Then, why, pray tell, have the Council in the first place? You admit by doing so that the Council did nothing and achieved nothing, do you not? Of course you do. And yet, the great proponents of the Concil, Suenens, Schillebeeckx, Montini himself, all claimed this would be a time of “a new Pentecost”, “a new springtime in the Church’: and you saw a nuclear winter!

            Why will people not see the facts? Because it would require them to admit they were wrong and to do great penance. And pride is the greatest temptation and the greatest obstacle: admitting one is wrong.

        • .Steve ….Are you arguing that but for V2 the Church would have continued in some idyllic state? Look at what was happening to the world then. The Vietnam War was tearing the US apart. The sexual revolution was beginning; young people were becoming alienated from “The Establishment” in massive numbers. The civil rights movement caused a massive social & political ground shift. etc. etc. I can’t believe that young Catholics would have followed the pattern of the ’50’s. I think my parents initially stuck with the Church only because they needed an anchor while dad was in Vietnam.

    • So you want to go back to the days when people who committed suicide could not have a funeral Mass or be buried in a Catholic cemetery?
      when if your child chose to marry a Lutheran in their church you could not go to the wedding?
      when if you married a Lutheran you could not have your wedding in the Church?
      when your monetary contribution to the Church was published?
      when Catholics could not read the Bible?

  11. Anonymous says:

    “A gay person who is seeking God, who is of good will—well, who am I to judge him? The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well. It says one must not marginalize these persons, they must be integrated into society. The problem isn’t this (homosexual) orientation—we must be like brothers and sisters. The problem is something else, the problem is lobbying either for this orientation or a political lobby or a Masonic lobby.”

    Pope Francis Evangelization intention for August 2015
    “That setting aside our very selves we may learn to be neighbours to those who find themselves on the margins of human life and society.”

    • Only 1 paragraph was quoted and out of context. Here are the others to fully contextualize the truth: tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
      2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

    • No, anon…you need to read it more carefully. That is just the sort of statement one expects from a politician( a statement that pleases as broad a base as possible without offending anyone) but not a pope. That is what is so troubling about this whole pontificate…the lack of conciseness, cohesion and clarity. That his understanding meshes so well with Barry Soreto, his mumawamma kingship of hiphopland should also ring a few bells. “See ya at the global warming gig, Frank”. “Si! You’re such a funny guy, bro.”

    • Steve Seitz says:

      Anonymous,
      I think you would agree, but I’ll state it for clarity. As I recall, the Pope’s “who am I to judge” quote was regarding a gay cleric at the Vatican who had repented of his sins. If he has repented, “Who am I to judge.”

  12. Anonymous says:

    A real Catholic priest loves God so much that the sins of the flesh are below him. There is then no categorizing a real priest as whether he is a heterosexual or homosexual. He only loves God, and is chaste to show his love for God. Priests that have committed adultery/fornication have done a great injustice to God, they have put God last, and themselves first. If they did so in a homosexual relationship, their sinner is even graver if you are a real Catholic that follows biblical teaching. Read St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, Chapter 1, verses 27-32 I think, from a truly Roman Catholic Bible, the Duay-Rheims Bible, anything else claimed catholic should be OK, but protestant bibles, can’t be trusted period as their protestant…

  13. Maryanne Leonard says:

    As a Catholic and as a human being, I have known, cared about, liked and was distressed to learn about the practicing homosexuality of co-workers, people at church, and neighbors. I can truly love the sinner but hate the sin. Why are some of us being denigrated for finding homosexual behavior revolting, disgusting, dangerous and disordered? We do need to really work at loving everyone, but we are not required to stifle our natural reactions to sin and degradation and should not be criticized for involuntarily feeling sick at our stomachs at the very thought.

    • Regarding homosexuality –
      SACRED SCRIPTURE: Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:9-10; 1 Tim 1:10; Jude 1:7.
      DOCTRINE of the FAITH: CCC # 2357, 2358, 2359, 2396.

      Stick with these, no matter what anyone else says or does.

    • So true, Maryanne. So true. It’s especially difficult when the sinner becomes his sin. How does one separate one from the other when they’re not just unrepentant but actively involved in promulgating it to our children? Their unconconscionable sneaky plotting, using the courts to force us to accept what is unacceptable is just diabolical. I have several lesbian friends who I care for very much. They would no more sue a baker for not making a wedding cake than they would force their opinions on me. This goes beyond mere ‘rights’ issues. This is truly evil claiming to be triumphant over God’s goodness!

  14. Sadly few modern Christian’s don’t care about God’s feeling or what God says, only what their sinful neighbors want. It’s easier to be bad than good. 14th Sunday after Pentecost Epistle: St. Paul Galatians 5, 16-24: Brethern walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for the flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh; . . the works of the flesh are manifest; which are fornication, uncleanliness, immodesty, . . . quarrels, . . envies, murders, . . . they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God. — Douay-Rheims Holy Bible.

    • Bernadette says:

      Bruce, the Bible passage you cited is right on target, warning us against, among other things, “quarrels.” Not to mention the others: “hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions.”
      And yet this website is filled with people who seem to spend most of their time quarreling about Latin vs. English, Vatican I vs. Vatican II, Pope Benedict vs. Pope Francis.
      If we used half of this energy and time actually DOING what Jesus commands, the world would be holier, and we’d all be happier and closer to Jesus.

  15. You know speaking of what Francis ‘didn’t say regarding quotes’ . . . It is also something one doesn’t say, when they should have said it! In other words not correcting for sin and evil things. Silence is another form of condoning in the eyes of many, especially the many who want to sin and do evil things.

    Your summary is correct Bernadette, the only problem is liberalism and modernism have infected the V2 church. Now there are many different categories traditionalists who uphold the way the Roman Catholic Church nearly 200 pontiffs before V2, those who are mediocre traditional, and those who love all the changes, stand behind them, but if that is not enough to satisfy them, there are those who want even more changes since V2…

COMMENTS POLICY: Comments are limited to 750 characters and will be truncated at 750. Comments should not contain offensive or libelous language. Please strive to be civil. All comments are subject to approval by our moderator and to editing as the moderator deems appropriate. Inclusion of your email address is optional.

Speak Your Mind

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

COMMENTS POLICY: Comments are limited to 750 characters and will be truncated at 750. Comments should not contain offensive or libelous language. Please strive to be civil. All comments are subject to approval by our moderator and to editing as the moderator deems appropriate. Inclusion of your email address is optional.